The Crucifixion: A Medical Perspective

reply to post by windword

1) Jesus died for the sins of the world, was resurrected and is god.

I would qualify this a bit.
Jesus was a god.
Jesus died as a person born on this planet.
Jesus was raised up to life, from death, as a resurrected type of person.
This was a breakthrough which opened the way for other persons to follow.
I have a personal knowledge of such things from experience.
Faith is what you do with that knowledge.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by windword

 

1) Jesus died for the sins of the world, was resurrected and is god.

I would qualify this a bit.
Jesus was a god.
Jesus died as a person born on this planet.
Jesus was raised up to life, from death, as a resurrected type of person.
This was a breakthrough which opened the way for other persons to follow.
I have a personal knowledge of such things from experience.
Faith is what you do with that knowledge.

You said when you had your NDE "experience" you went to Hell. That should clue you in that your doctrine was completely wrong. And it didn't mean you just needed to work harder.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

You said when you had your NDE "experience" you went to Hell. That should clue you in that your doctrine was completely wrong.

That was 27 years ago, so my current "doctrines" are considerably different, and back then I was a Free-Grace'r.
I had another death experience after that one, where I did not "go to hell".

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

You said when you had your NDE "experience" you went to Hell. That should clue you in that your doctrine was completely wrong.

That was 27 years ago, so my current "doctrines" are considerably different, and back then I was a Free-Grace'r.
I had another death experience after that one, where I did not "go to hell".

Then praise the Lord.

In support of the OP:

He [Jesus] took the Twelve aside and told them what was going to happen to him. “We are going up to Jerusalem,” he said, “and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will hand him over to the Gentiles, who will mock him and spit on him, flog him and kill him. Three days later he will rise."

- Mark 10: 32-34
And he [Jesus] said, “The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.”
Then he said to them all: “If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it.

- Luke 9:22-24
Then he [Jesus] took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father’s kingdom.

- Matthew 26:27-29
Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, “I am thirsty.” A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus’ lips. When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

- John 19:28-30


Matthew 27:29 "And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!"

John 19:2 "And the soldiers platted a crown of thorns, and put it on his head, and they put on him a purple robe,"

John 19:34 "But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water."



I can find, many, many, many more if needed

reply to post by Iason321


The point of all that scripture was?

Originally posted by Iason321


- Matthew 26:27-29
Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, “I am thirsty.” A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus’ lips. When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Most interesting, the healing effects of the Holy Hyssop Plant

An interesting plant that is also part of Roman and Greek medicines. It also one of the most symbolic in the Biblical Narratives.

Symbolically, Hassop was the paint brush of blood for Moses Passover. It is used to make Catholic Holy Sprinkle Water. And used to hold up the Jesus sponge soaked with sour wine that just happened to be sitting around. It is only about 2 ft long, so Jesus was not very high off the ground.

The most interesting thing is the Hassop has astringent property and other healing properties. Its symbolism being connected with Jesus is very stong, as it suggests they are using the special healing methods already.

www.ageless.co.za...

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en.wikipedia.org...

The name hyssop can be traced back almost unchanged through the Greek ύσσωπος (hyssopos).[1] The Book of Exodus records that the blood of the sacrifices was applied to the doorposts using hyssop on the night of Passover. Its purgative properties are also mentioned in the Book of Psalms.[2] Jesus, on the cross, knowing that all things had now been finished [3] said, "I thirst" and a sponge soaked in vinegar (Roman soldier wine, sour wine) was put at the end of a hyssop branch and brought up to His mouth for Him to drink.[4][5] Both Matthew and Mark mention the occasion but refer to the plant using the general term καλαμος (kalamos), which is translated as "reed" or "stick."

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Ritual useHyssop is also often used to fill the Catholic ceremonial Aspergillum, which the priest dips into a bowl of holy water, and sprinkles onto the congregation to bless them. To wit, the invocation in the Psalm Miserere states Thou shalt purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean:.

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www.mountainroseherbs.com...

Introduction
"Purge me with hyssop," the Bible records, "and I will be clean." Hyssop has been used for millennia as a holy herb, consecrated for cleaning holy places. Its name comes from the Hebrew word adobe or ezob, which literally means "holy herb". Hyssop is an evergreen bushy herb growing 1 to 2 feet (60 to 90 cm) high on a square stem with linear leaves and flowers in whorls of 6 to 15 blooms. Native to southern Europe, it is grown in gardens in cooler climates around the world.

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www.mariamilani.com...

Ancient Roman Medicine
Ancient Roman medicine was in many ways a development of what they learned from the Greeks and then applied in exasperated situations such as continuous war or gladiatorial shows. The wealth of Rome was such that it created medical situations and needs which required the best techniques and knowledge of the time: the wealth of the rich created a demand for cosmetic surgery

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Hyssop - Pliny of the first century AD describes wine made from this plant, this may have been an influence for the Benedictine monks who brought the herb to central europe to flavour their liqueur. During the empire the use of Hyssop was known for its cleansing action and it was regarded as a remedy for lepers.

Just appears to be getting one of the Holy Healing agents while nailed to the tree, one that deals with bleeding from wounds and other problems.

Originally posted by MagnumOpus
The reality is dead people with brain death don't recover.

You worship is of a dead man.

The definition of your religion, due to this, is that it is dead. It is a failed concept the world rejects.

All this stuff you propose is pure conjecture, no proof of anything, not even a good postulation.


I find it not credible, and so does the larger part of the world.

edit on 30-4-2012 by MagnumOpus because: Pure Nonsense rejected as religion

Christianity is dead? Tell that to the 2 billion of them worldwide, doesn't seem dead to us. In fact christianity is not only flourishing but exploding in Africa to the point it's causing friction between african muslim and african christians. Far from dead bro. Your post is conjecture, no proof of anything, not even a good postulation.

Yeshua is dead? Prove it. Oh but you can't, can you? Aight then, i rest my case.

Jesus even offere Myrrh before the nails:

westpalmbeachchurchofchrist.com...

The Crucifixion (Mark 15:23 -32)
Wine mixed with myrrh
Once they arrive at the skull, Jesus is offered wine mixed with myrrh. Wine mixed with myrrh was a first century drug to deaden the pain of driving the nails through the wrists and through the feet. Jesus refuses the wine mixed with myrrh. We assume the reason was that He was ready to experience the full pain and suffering of the crucifixion. No one can argue that He did not feel what was happening to Him, or that He was out of His mind on the cross because He had drunk wine mixed with myrrh. Jesus felt every ounce of the suffering and pain of the cross.

They appeared to be fully prepared with some of the best healing methods of their times.

"He would have had to survive what I believe to be a lethal injury from the spear to find out whether He was alive or not. What is described as a loss of water and blood, and that would entail either the, uh, either the pleural effusion or pericardial effusion and the blood would have come from either the pulmonary artery, pulmonary vein, the aorta, vena cava, or the heart itself...

None of those injuries unless you're treated immediately by a trauma surgeon like myself with all the advanced equipment like we have today would be survivable after a few minutes."


Trauma surgeon statement from the OP video.

Originally posted by novastrike81
reply to post by Iason321

 

The point of all that scripture was?

Accounts of the crucifixion narrative. That's basically the topic of the thread.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
"He would have had to survive what I believe to be a lethal injury from the spear to find out whether He was alive or not. What is described as a loss of water and blood, and that would entail either the, uh, either the pleural effusion or pericardial effusion and the blood would have come from either the pulmonary artery, pulmonary vein, the aorta, vena cava, or the heart itself...

None of those injuries unless you're treated immediately by a trauma surgeon like myself with all the advanced equipment like we have today would be survivable after a few minutes."


Trauma surgeon statement from the OP video.

edit on 1-5-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

Unfortunatly none of those vital areas would have bled if he was dead at the time... blood settles in the lowest places in the body after death... it can not "bleed" if the heart is not pumping...

IF he was hanging the heart would have only had a small amount of blood remaining within it... and the veins would pretty much be empty because of the settling of the blood, and the extreme loss of blood from the entire process as well...

I still maintian... yes he likely died... but not everything about the story makes sense...

The soldier could not have hit his heart when he "pierced his right side"... the spear would have had to go though the rib cage on an upwards angle... through the right lung, and perhaps even the diaphram...

It would have been an unlikely stab considering it was getting dark for one... considering the angle the spear would have taken to hit the heart... considering the shear amount of tissue said spear would have had to penetrate... plus the rib cage... and the heart is only the size of an adult fist...

For him to bleed his heart had to still be pumping when he was "pierced"... and thus.... not quite dead yet

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
"He would have had to survive what I believe to be a lethal injury from the spear to find out whether He was alive or not. What is described as a loss of water and blood, and that would entail either the, uh, either the pleural effusion or pericardial effusion and the blood would have come from either the pulmonary artery, pulmonary vein, the aorta, vena cava, or the heart itself...

None of those injuries unless you're treated immediately by a trauma surgeon like myself with all the advanced equipment like we have today would be survivable after a few minutes."


Trauma surgeon statement from the OP video.

Let the record show that NotUrTypical enters that Jesus was dead. Also, once NotUrTypical claims that he also has to buy the rest of the medical package, which is heart stopped and brain death occured. And there was then zero possibilty for Jesus to be seen in the garden, nor running around with others.

For NotUrTypical Jesus died then and there, and was never to be seen again.

Medical Science knows of no way to recover from brain death.

reply to post by Akragon


I think the Pathologists and the trauma surgeon in the OP are more credible. Not slamming you, but the Pathologist I mentioned is a world-renowned double-doctorate with over 15,000 autopsies to his credit. He probably knows what he is talking about, no offense man.

reply to post by MagnumOpus


Yep, He died, and was dead for 3 days and 3 nights. COMPLETELY brain dead with rigermortis. That's why it's maintained He was NOT resuscitated,.. He was resurrected from the dead.

Completely and utterly dead, for days.

For NotUrTypical Jesus died then and there, and was never to be seen again.

Now you're lying, I never said He was "never to be seen again." That's your claim, don't attach my name it it.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

I think the Pathologists and the trauma surgeon in the OP are more credible. Not slamming you, but the Pathologist I mentioned is a world-renowned double-doctorate with over 15,000 autopsies to his credit. He probably knows what he is talking about, no offense man.

none taken my brother... my medical "expertise" is definately limited...

Though i believe said surgeon likely had a bias opinion of the matter...

reply to post by Akragon


There is always the case for pleural effusion and poking a hole in the side actually saved his life and dumped out the lymph fluid. Or hitting the lymph ducts on the right side of chest cavity. And even the lymph under the skin from blisters.


One doesn't get to cherry pick only half the story of medical science, as if the heart stopped, the brain death is quck, and then Jesus won't be seen or heard from again. Simple medical fact that goes with the rest of the story.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


I thought the OP was about the medical perspective of Jesus on the Cross, not the events leading up to his crucifixion. Those points are irrelevant because none of them provide any evidence to the cause of him bleeding a water substance.

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

I think the Pathologists and the trauma surgeon in the OP are more credible. Not slamming you, but the Pathologist I mentioned is a world-renowned double-doctorate with over 15,000 autopsies to his credit. He probably knows what he is talking about, no offense man.

none taken my brother... my medical "expertise" is definately limited...

Though i believe said surgeon likely had a bias opinion of the matter...

That's a seriously moot point. Everyone has a bias. Although his medical training and the training of the Pathologist isn't "bias". The people being skeptical have a bias. There is no such thing as un-biased "middle ground".

Originally posted by novastrike81
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

I thought the OP was about the medical perspective of Jesus on the Cross, not the events leading up to his crucifixion. Those points are irrelevant because none of them provide any evidence to the cause of him bleeding a water substance.

The doctor in the OP begins his case with the sweating of blood the night before the crucifixion. Not to be offensive, but did you watch the video in the OP?