Time to take the gun from the American public!

reply to post by lacrimaererum


Let me try to explain this (I didn't read through all the posts so if its already been stated then it bears repeating).

Gun control does not work...
Gun control has never worked...

When laws are passed restricting guns, who do you think is going to be the group that abides by them? Yup, people who respect the law and act responsible.

Who is going to ignore the law? Yup, criminals.. Gun control punishes the wrong person, and since criminals are called criminals because they break the law, they benefit from those laws.

A person needs to ask themselves this question -
Exactly how much do you trust the government to take care of your personal well being? Exactly how much do you trust law enforcement to take care of your personal well being?

The Legislators are not going to be the ones responding to your location if some wingnut has a gun. Law Enforcement will respond, but contrary to popular belief the function of law enforcement is not to protect the individual, but society as a whole. Law Enforcement will respond but the odds of getting their in time is slim.

Constantly passing restrictive laws puts us at the edge of the slippery slope. A person is not a criminal until they break the law, and only then after they are charged, tried in a court of law and found guilty by the same. The day we restrict items based on the possibility to abuse is the day we might as well close up the country and walk into the ocean.

In the end, when a person is a participant in a crime as the victim, they are the ones who are truly present at the front lines. Of course law enforcement is called, but by the time they get their its possible people are already dead.

The individual is solely responsible for his or her actions and passing laws that essentially force everyone to rely on the government is a bad bad bad bad mistake. We live in a free society, and one of the costs is balancing security over individual rights. What occurred, actually anytime there is a loss of life, is tragic. However, passing laws to restrict weapons because of that incident opens the door for it to happen again, and possibly on a much larger scale.

How many people in that college could have been saved / survived had any one of them been armed? I generally dont advocate the individual to confront an armed individual, however there are no guarantees in life. and as such sometimes people are placed into a situation they never thought they would be in.

Personally speaking I would rather head into the afterlife knowing I died standing up and unafraid, meeting the challenge head on rather than die, cowering in the corner, hoping the wingnut misses me.

One of my favorite reads - My Creed by Dean Alfange -

I do not choose to be a common man.

It is my right to be uncommon—if I can. I seek opportunity—not security.
I do not wish to be a kept citizen, humbled and dulled by having the state look after me.
I want to take the calculated risk; to dream and to build, to fail and to succeed.
I refuse to barter incentive for a dole. I prefer the challenges of life to the guaranteed existence;
the thrill of fulfillment to the stale calm of utopia.
I will not trade freedom for beneficence nor my dignity for a handout. I will never
cower before any master nor bend to any threat.

It is my heritage to stand erect, proud and unafraid; to think and act for myself, enjoy the benefit of my creations, and to face the world boldly and say, this I have done. All this is what it means to be an American.

When we back down they win...
When we pass laws restricting law abiding citizens because its easier than confronting and dealing with the problem, they win.

"How are you gonna take down an m1 tank charging you with your little rifle?"(the "professional")
Thermite on the bustle rack ace.Cook off the ammo,bang.

By rust, aluminum powder a can with a rare earth magnet and a fuse,I have shown others in my unit how crappy armor security is..repeatedly.A tank without infantry support is dead.

Originally posted by kawika
reply to post by sting130u

 

Oh, yes quite right...

Here it is

Thanks Seems to be more than one, I saw a different image but still just as good and informative.

reply to post by cavtrooper7


Wont work when the apaches are protecting the tanks from infantry with FLIR. I know about thermite and magnets. You think they are gonna let you get close to enable something like that?

Originally posted by EyesWideShut
If you are a warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be “on” 24/7 for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself... “Baa.”

Lt. Col. Grossman on Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs

"One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me: 'Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident...Then there are the wolves,' the old war veteran said, 'and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy.' Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial...Then there are sheepdogs,' he went on, 'and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf.'

...If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen: a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath--a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? Then you are a sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed...

Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial; that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids' schools. But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid's school. Our children are dozens of times more likely to be killed, and thousands of times more likely to be seriously injured, by school violence than by school fires, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their children is just too hard, so they choose the path of denial.

The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, cannot and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheepdog that intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.

Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa." Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog...

Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed right along with the young ones.

Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America said, 'Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes.' The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, 'Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference.' When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.

While there is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, he does have one real advantage -- only one. He is able to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the population."


Lt. Col. David Grossman from The Bulletproof Mind

Thanks!!! Didn't know my place in this world until now!!

Don't worry my sheep, we will keep you safe o.O As long as my trigger finger works, and my sight is clear, I got your back.

reply to post by jude11


Do you know what..... I am fed up with this ridiculous false logic that Americans spout on a daily basis on this issue.... I'm sorry if this offends anyone, but I've had it.....

Originally owning a firearm was inserted into the constitution because America was a feudal place... mainly because it was stolen from the indigenous people's.... this is why it was originally necessary to arm the public... clearly this is no longer the case...

If I hear one more person say "But then only the criminals will have guns" I am going to shoot someone....

By this logic, as there are undoubtedly terrorist organisations in this world that can and have made a dirty nuclear device... should we all have one!! I'm sorry, but this is the same logic that the cold war was based on.... "give everyone nuclear weapons and everyone will be afraid to use them".... the deterrant argument.... reminds me of this old saying....

"Fighting for peace is like f*cking for virginity".....

A society with less death bringing weapons is a safer society...... you make it harder to get firearms... and less people will have them and be fored to use them....


At the same time though.... Canadians all own guns... and they are not shooting each other in the face on a regular basis.... so maybe it's more to do with the American culture than the proliferation of weapons.... but I refuse to ignore the logic...

Discuss...

PA

reply to post by lacrimaererum


Bsnning guns and dissarming the publis is a crock of crud..!!

They did it here in AU after MArtin Bryant went postal at Port Auther.

Didn't make a damn bit of difference..!!

A couple of months after the big hand0ver, a man killed 7 people with knives and a hachet in a Sydeny shoppinmg mall.

If someone wants to do a mass murder, they will do it, with or without guns. And criminals will always have guns. If someone really wants to kill a lot of people in one hit, they can find guns easily enough on the black market.

HEll when we were dissarmed, it didn't even stop the mass suicides of farmers in our country. They still had shotguns and non-semi Auto guns to do the trick and a lot of them turned to taking a swig of farm chemicals also (are we supposed to ban chemicals also to stop farmers from drinking them)..lol

Cun control has no positive effect on populations at all.... AU is a prime example!!

Originally posted by milominderbinder

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Nite_wing
SANFORD, Fla. —
Two men were arrested in Sanford on attempted murder charges after trying to kill another man with a hammer, the Seminole County Sheriff's Office said on Monday.

Here

The victim didn't have a gun.

We need to get rid of hammers too.

It's obvious.

We disagree on a lot...but this issue isn't one of them.

Removing the right to bear arms is nothing short of insane. The North American Indian didn't have a whole lot guns either....look what happened to them.

Never underestimate the US governments willingness to murder defenseless civilians.

Hell no. I see it all the time! Bombs away! Iraq ..... yea, we all know the list.

P

reply to post by lacrimaererum


Never! As others have said criminals will always have guns, it's really that simple.

BUT, I get really aggravated when people use the "we need our guns to keep our government in check" line. I mean We the People have been getting abused at least since the day I was born. 40% tax rates (think about that - you work two days a week to pay for schools in Afganistan and handouts for Israel), redundant and wasteful departments and programs, "Patriot" Act, ect. So spare me that rhetoric.

reply to post by THE_PROFESSIONAL


Air bases and Army flight lines are easier to attack than frontline defences,ever heard of RED CELL? They put mock explosives under Airforce one.You think Area 51 could hold of a battalion of vet militia? A batt could be raised in about a month.Unfortunately we would be using hollow point ammo because we can't buy AP ammo,which would also increase csualties.
And AMERICA IS NOT DYING you doom and gloom troller.Care to admit what you are a professional in now?You do seem to avoid saying anything but your BOOK knowledge is ok.
Everyone who reads my stuff know's I was a scout.That means I specialized in being in your back yard,where ever you are from and you can't see me without advanced optics or good training.
A few infantry commanders on Ft Carson and in Korea were rather unhappy when their headgear disappeared.
That could have been knife work.Now I'm a veteran but I doubt all this fake TPTB crap will last much longer now that we know about it.

Originally posted by GuidedKill

Same way we taught the Afgan's.....Gorilla Warfare...Americans are the masters.

edit on 4-4-2012 by GuidedKill because: (no reason given)

Gorilla Warfare is something to do with 4 issues of DC comics.

Guerrilla Warfare is what youmay have meant but it is certainly not something American would be considered masters of. The US are masters of bullying and cowardice. They are moving towards full drone warfare where unmanned machines kill people across the planet without jugde or jury. Plans are in place to give these drones full access to US airspace. They wil soon be a common sight in American skies. Lets see how your home protection weapon does against a Reaper.

reply to post by lives


Then get off your collective butts and do something about it! I do not live in the US. I am sick and tired of the US led slaughter around the world. Fix your problems, you have the means to do this! Stop moaning and waiting for the Bat to save you. He is not coming!

As for the rest of the gun owners. get off your butts. Waiting till they are at your door is waiting way too long. Your constitution allows you weapons. You are all just sitting around moaning. Your fore fathers saw this day a comin. Get some spine. You won't live forever. Today is a good day to die.

P

So your point in the OP is that there are seven incidents of violence involving guns, therefore 300 million Americans should hand over their weapons? Illogical. In addition, the people should not fear the government....the government should fear the people. That's the aim of our Founding Fathers.

reply to post by lacrimaererum


You can go petition your government and see if they'll put boots on our soil to TRY and take them, and if you somehow succeed, you will see your country's army thoroughly womped by the American people. I assume you're british, so I'll add to that AGAIN.

People like you can come and try to take my arms, but the second you do, you create something much worse than a mass murderer, and that's a calculated animal you are backing into a corner.

We have guns, and eventually we will be called on to use them, either to defend our families, our country, or our constitution. Since you have never known true freedom, you just do not understand.

reply to post by PerfectAnomoly


Ok.. How about this argument then.

An armed population are called citizens and an unarmed population are called subjects. Which if I am not mistaken Canadians were considered subjects until the early 1980's. About 1/3 of homicides in Canada are the direct result of guns. That stat was from 2007 however the RCMP stats show an overall decline of crime in Canada in 2011.

Guess what - The FBI UCR reporting for 2011 shows crime rates are down in the United States also.

Giving you the benefit of the doubt about Canada and no need for guns I have a question. If Canada is that safe then why are Canadian law enforcement officers armed?

Is it because the the Police are concerned about law abiding citizens or are they armed because of criminals?

If Britain is safe because of their gun control laws, why do police departments have squads of armed officers?
Is it because of the law abiding citizens or are they armed because of criminals?

If Australia is safe because of gun control laws, why are their law enforcement officers armed?
Is it because of the law abiding citizens or are they armed because of criminals?[

ETA - I saw the other post that stated you are from the UK. Care to share with us the crime statistics for people murder / severely assaulted / robbed by knives?
Should knives also be banned?

By the way.. Guns dont kill people. Knives dont kill people.. Cars dont kill people.

People kill people.

reply to post by PerfectAnomoly

Do you know what..... I am fed up with this ridiculous false logic that Americans spout on a daily basis on this issue.... I'm sorry if this offends anyone, but I've had it.....

Originally owning a firearm was inserted into the constitution because America was a feudal place... mainly because it was stolen from the indigenous people's.... this is why it was originally necessary to arm the public... clearly this is no longer the case...

If I hear one more person say "But then only the criminals will have guns" I am going to shoot someone....

You're in England and a radically different society than we have in the United States where this is concerned, The majority of your cops don't even carry sidearms across your nation. Here, even the back country cops have long rifles these days and the big city cops have at least a couple automatic rifles in supervisor units every shift if nothing else. I've heard cops say some cities are FAR more heavily equipped than that.

You're also in a nation that has never had widespread use and posession of firearms among the general population without notable restriction or sense of issue. We've always had guns in the United States and as some have noted, far MORE guns than we have people in total numbers.

My main point is.........Keeping guns out of a society that has never known them is one thing. The U.K and most of Europe is great and I'd never suggest that change and guns suddenly be open items to buy in those nations.

REMOVING guns from a society that have never known anything else is a WORLD DIFFERENT and is not just a bad idea in America, it's flat out civil war talk and there isn't any gentler way to put that. Rather large numbers from the back hills of Kentucky and West Virginia to the backwoods of Humboldt, California would fight and fight real hard. Even if no guns is something people find a good idea...and I sure DO NOT......it's 100% fantasy in the U.S.

reply to post by lacrimaererum


if the government takes the guns away from EVERYONE, they are only taking the guns away from the normal good hard working citizens.

the bad guys will ALWAYS find a way to get guns.

so when the bad guys walk up with guns, nobody will be able to "shoot back" at them.

if every single american had a small handgun with them, crime rates would drop dramatically because no bad guy would dare try to pull anything...

Cars kill more people every day then guns. Lets ban cars right....???? It would save alot of people right.....

"but but but cars are for driving and have a use."

well my gun is for hunting and feeding me. it has a use!

if your going to ban guns because of deaths, ban cars first!

Originally posted by Jim Scott
So your point in the OP is that there are seven incidents of violence involving guns, therefore 300 million Americans should hand over their weapons? Illogical. In addition, the people should not fear the government....the government should fear the people. That's the aim of our Founding Fathers.

This is not my point at all. I have no idea how many numbers of murders are listed in the OP. I just put up a few eamples of the recent multiple killings, carried out by citizens on other citizens. I could have put up 1 example or 100 , it doesn't matter.

I am not in the US. I am looking in. I see a lot of issues. Do you know when I have news feed floating across my screen how many time it flashes up that a particular school is on lockdown in the US because a possible sighting of a person with a gun on campus. Its almost non-stop. Do you people know whats going on in your own kids heads. You are sending your kids off to school and they are wondering if a classmate will shoot them.
Sure everybody is good at hiding these fears , putting on a brave face, but what type of society is it going to lead to in the future.


I just seen a lot of gun violence. There is plenty of areas in the US now where the Cops won't even go into because its too dangerous for them. You think as long as its not in your backyard you will be ok. Well your are wrong.

The point.......
You see I was just wondering if there was any maturity blossoming in your Country. Any sense of enlightment. Any idea that maybe its time to stop. To stand up. To put down the weapons. Stop been scared. Realise that there is no future for a society that arms itself. It will reach breaking point. Its becoming more and more fractured every day. it will eventually break. But people don't have to let it get that far. You cant stop it now.

The situation at the moment would take huge work to disarm people. But you have a choice as society to change the country. To remove the gun. It could be down.

I am just getting the impression that many are too scared of this and also the belief that you do not have the ability to achieve something so mature.

You are talking about the FOUNDING FATHERS? The estimated population in 1776 was 2.5million. A census in 1790 showed a population of 3.9million.
Today the population is 313million. Many of that population have guns.( www.reuters.com... ) Many probably shouldn't have. For many different reasons. Its a very different world to 1776.

reply to post by satoriku

Oh enough of your crap already.

Charming.

You (UK) lost your ability to own a gun because of FEAR!

I could say you keep your guns BECAUSE of fear.

In the early 20th century your ruling elite were afraid of communist revolt, and socialists wanted to disarm the people. After Churchill, you rolled, believed the government fear mongering about crime, and allowed your rights to be systematically eroded over time... which continues to this day.

We can argue the toss over who has lost more rights but that would be pointless as we had different rights/ laws to begin with. We also have gained more rights and improved many aspects of British life, I'm sure the same can be said for the US.

This is why we have a Bill Of Rights, a Constitution

This is why we have a Bill Of Rights, a Constitution, a passion for liberty and freedom, and a desire to protect them all... THAT is how we were brought up... well most of us at least.

All good.

You acquiesced, not of some morally superior tenet, but of fear.

Yeah, you can think that, but it's fear that keeps you armed. Same thing different reasons.

Like I've said in previous posts, every time there is a shooting like this, or a series of them in a short space of time, you will get (probably a Brit) raising the issue of gun control. From our perspective it seems wrong, hence the stance whilst from yours it's already part of your culture.

I see no harm in an American raising a thread about us having a monarchy, neither should you see harm in us raising ones about gun control. It does get reported in our news so it is a current topic.