Military training and it's effect on humans

Originally posted by Grimpachi
reply to post by MarkScheppy

 

I have also noticed you like to quote the bible a lot as if that lends you credibility. How many lives have been lost to religon I ask? Just try to count them. Since you mention the tooth fairy I will tell you that seems as plauseble as your god being the authority on these matters.

It seems you wan't to stand on a soap box and preach. Isn't there something in your bible about casting stones.

I have read enough of your comments to know there is no reasoning with you so I will leave this conversation on this note.

Plausible, sorry about upwelling of my religious voice, These might be beaten statistics, but I would rather die from my bible beliefs than in Media-Industrial complex religion. I'd have better generals at my aid and with better information about the enemy.

Casualties due to "Iraq War" Religion (From here it is impossible to know)
Iraq Family Health Survey 151,000 deaths March 2003 to June 2006
Lancet survey 601,027 violent deaths out of 654,965 excess deaths March 2003 to June 2006
Opinion Research Business survey 1,033,000 deaths as a result of the conflict March 2003 to August 2007
Associated Press 110,600 deaths March 2003 to April 2009
Iraq Body Count project 103,536 — 113,125 civilian deaths as a result of the conflict. Over 150,726 civilian and combatant deaths March 2003 to October 2011
WikiLeaks. Classified Iraq war logs 109,032 deaths including 66,081 civilian deaths. January 2004 to December 2009

From June 2003, through December 31, 2010, there have been 16,623 Iraqi military and police killed based on several estimates. The Iraq Index of the Brookings Institution keeps a running total of ISF casualties. There is also a breakdown of ISF casualties at the iCasualties.org website.


From June 2003, through September 30, 2011, there have been 26,320 Iraqi insurgents killed based on several estimates

As of May 28, 2010, there were 4,404 dead and 31,827 wounded in action (WIA).[42] See the references for a breakdown of the wounded, injured, ill, those returned to duty (RTD), those requiring medical air transport, non-hostile-related medical air transports, non-hostile injuries, diseases, or other medical reasons.

136 journalists and 51 media support workers were killed on duty according to the numbers listed on source pages on February 24, 2009. 94 aid workers have been killed according to a November 21, 2007, Reuters article.

As of 24 February 2009 (2009 -02-24)

I'm back, the mods gave Me a holiday.
Here's a little insight into the way war is promoted.
video.google.com...#

It's murder by any other name.
gravitor

Originally posted by MarkScheppy

PLASIFISK
Calling you ICE CUBE was in response to you thinking I'VE lost my cool. Never happens.
Our way only matters to us, those going against us. OUR way has nothing to do with YOU. We are not trying to train you.

Lastly," But I see them as deluded and dangerous."

Oh can't forget the "Christian Right" in America.


DIGG THIS

If anyone still thinks that the radical end-times "prophecy" movement is not a threat to peace and stability, think again. At the popular level, in terms of the TV preachers and the hot-selling prophecy books, the dispensational pre-trib stuff still reigns supreme. Most conservative-leaning Evangelical churches in America today are heavily influenced by popular dispensational theology to some extent. Even churches and pastors that don’t teach pretribulationalism still are influenced by dispensationalism to varying degrees.

The most dangerous element of this prophetic paradigm, however, is its doom-and-gloom view of the world. And in most cases, those who have a fascination with the end of the world have a particular fascination with war and militarism as well. More problematic, it assumes that their wars of choice are not just their own foreign policy preferences or personal opinions. Rather they are ordained by God. In 2003, more than a few pastors and influential Christian figures basically said that opposing the Iraq war was opposing God’s end-time plan. According to Evangelical end-times enthusiasts, if you opposed the Iraq war, you didn’t just hate your country and the troops, now you were opposing God and the Bible as well.

An even bigger obsession for dispensationalists has always been Israel. For the average dispensationalist, modern-day secular Israel is going to be the focal point in the end-times. Therefore, if the Bible really does teach in Daniel 9:27 that the Al-Aqsa Mosque is going to be torn down for a rebuilt Jewish Temple, why should any of us seek to prevent it? Sure, it very well might ignite a regional war and even ignite tensions around the world, but it's all part of God’s prophetic plan. Not to worry though, things might not get really ugly until after the "rapture," so the Christians today who are cheering for events that would bring about World War III won’t have to worry about it anyway. Unless of course, they are wrong about the whole thing.
Nutcase Preacher John Hagee Wants war with IRAN and he wants it NOW

edit on 30-11-2011 by MarkScheppy because: add

What did anything you just quoted me saying have to do with religion?

You really have a problem dont you, well here is your soap box chap! Please entertain me.....(jeez crazy people.....( who left the dang door open huh?)

Originally posted by MarkScheppy

PLASIFISK

Moving on, " many of the current military are so easily controlled and ordered to murder whoever they feel is inferior".

Well there is a chain of command. I'm in charge of some, and there are those in charge of me! Accordingly, we accept responsibility for the actions of those we are in charge of. Yes I give lawful orders, and am given direct orders. Now we are not ORDERED to murder anybody. We have a mission, and carry it out. Our rules of engagement give detailed rules of what justifiable use of force may be used in a situation. However, if you are showing an attempt to take my life, I will match your force with the same intent. Inferiority has nothing to do with it.

Next, "that they really are becoming the borg, a cult that all operate as one...a brotherhood of same minded beings that consider their way, the only way"

Hey Mark of the Beast, it is the system now, especially in Afghanistan where it is serving the Queen (the whore of babylon). It doesn't take a stretch of the imagination to make the good honest citizens criminals of the state. And enforced by state-run military (heiryarchy-esque) police, run like cartels in Mexico and south of the border. And now a Super Congress "Junta," europeans can see that our congress is now being run by cabal wealthy super-rich beurocrats from Europe. The military sounds you work for sounds like an organization run by a group of The Brotherhood of the Serpent.

If your C.O. didn't make you do something I could see how easy it would be for your unit or a simple bunch of peons to do the henchman work. Step-by-step the US, being led to its doom.

edit on 30-11-2011 by MarkScheppy because: add

Ah HEMM......MARK-O-THE-BEAST.....lol..... I'm sure you can do better than that!

Originally posted by gravitor
I'm back, the mods gave Me a holiday.
Here's a little insight into the way war is promoted.
video.google.com...#

It's murder by any other name.
gravitor

WELCOME BACK GRAVITOR!!!!!

Iv'e missed you buddy!

reply to post by PLASIFISK


. Hey what's up buddy. Our little friend must have been banned then for a little while.

Originally posted by Grimpachi
reply to post by PLASIFISK

 

. Hey what's up buddy. Our little friend must have been banned then for a little while.

That or he went on "How to be and efficient ANARCHIST" trip with his local chapter. You know they just dont make'em like they use to!

I'm sure he'll meet all expectations in do time. eventually destroying something, somewhere, to somebody all in the name of his soap box..lol

Anyway, how you been buddy/ how was your thanksgiving?

Oh ummmm yeah I should post something on the thread topic! Sooooo ummmm sure military persons are crazy, programmed, puppet borgs, yadda yadda yahhh,,, blah blah blah!

We make the best friends you could have though hahahaha ya know why, BECAUSE WE ARE RELIABLE, AND GOOD SPIRITED!

Hey see ya round Grim, keep your head up bro.

Originally posted by Grimpachi
reply to post by PLASIFISK

 

. Hey what's up buddy. Our little friend must have been banned then for a little while.

Correct, on another thread.
Someone calling for an attack on Iran, I called them a lunatic.
The last link was showing how music is used to motivate people to become detatched from the reality of killing others.
Whilst those who make profits are sat on the beach laughing at the mugs doing the killings.
Young men are easily turned into robots to do the wishes of their commanders.
All undertaken under the cover of WAR, with cowards scared to say anything incase they loose their pensions( blood payments).
gravitor

Originally posted by gravitor

Originally posted by Grimpachi
reply to post by PLASIFISK

 

. Hey what's up buddy. Our little friend must have been banned then for a little while.

Correct, on another thread.
Someone calling for an attack on Iran, I called them a lunatic.
The last link was showing how music is used to motivate people to become detatched from the reality of killing others.
Whilst those who make profits are sat on the beach laughing at the mugs doing the killings.
Young men are easily turned into robots to do the wishes of their commanders.
All undertaken under the cover of WAR, with cowards scared to say anything incase they loose their pensions( blood payments).
gravitor

I think what you miss, gravitor, is that people have an annoying ability to think for themselves. This fact is not exclusive of the military. and you also are failing to acknowledge that the US military is voluntary. Now, having said that, I do understand that most liberal trust-fund kiddies don't opt for the military. That's more good than bad. But in all actuality, military training demands you think for yourself (believe it or not).

Lt Smith goes down in a firefight, you, SSgt Schmuckatelli, need to man up and THINK. You admit you've never been in the military so you probably are unfamiliar with the concept of taking over when your starbucks manager takes one in the chest and you still have to make coffee.

The whole "military people are drones" thing is a bit tired, and continually proposing that idea makes me squint my eyes and think you're not quite understanding the dynamic. But then I realize you've never served and it's as foreign to you as the surface of the moon. Thou shalt not speak about that of which thou is clueless.

reply to post by tangonine


Hey tangonine!

Hows it going bro. I see you made a response to gravitor for what he said to me. If you look back through his threads youll see is crazy as a bat and. Confrontational. He has some point from time to time however 98% of his rambling is soap box yadda yadda for lack of better words. Have you met Grim on here? Well he and i have figured out approaching gravitor like speaking to a 12 year old works pretty well! Lol you know i ready dont " not like" gravitor. He just needs a big brother to take him under the wing.

His rants are too dang funny though!

Hahahahahha Rant Gravitor Rant!

Originally posted by PLASIFISK
reply to post by tangonine

 

Hey tangonine!

Hows it going bro. I see you made a response to gravitor for what he said to me. If you look back through his threads youll see is crazy as a bat and. Confrontational. He has some point from time to time however 98% of his rambling is soap box yadda yadda for lack of better words. Have you met Grim on here? Well he and i have figured out approaching gravitor like speaking to a 12 year old works pretty well! Lol you know i ready dont " not like" gravitor. He just needs a big brother to take him under the wing.

His rants are too dang funny though!

Hahahahahha Rant Gravitor Rant!

Said the five year old.
gravitor

Originally posted by tangonine
Lt Smith goes down in a firefight, you, SSgt Schmuckatelli, need to man up and THINK. You admit you've never been in the military so you probably are unfamiliar with the concept of taking over when your starbucks manager takes one in the chest and you still have to make coffee.

The whole "military people are drones" thing is a bit tired, and continually proposing that idea makes me squint my eyes and think you're not quite understanding the dynamic. But then I realize you've never served and it's as foreign to you as the surface of the moon. Thou shalt not speak about that of which thou is clueless.

Alex Jones-- in March played clips of soldiers taunting Afghanistan boys like psychopath serial killers. This harkens to my opinion I had about Lawrence of Arabia. The "peace" after was not planned out very well there. And listening to these British soldiers reminds me why I have a moral belief about the war. The arming of the Taliban and making them fight the Russians as our Allies and then twenty years later invading their country and killing them and attacking civilians (calling it a peace) makes no sense. If you are in the Cabal it makes sense but the cabal aren't the ones coming back home after fighting suffering trauma. Soap, how many of your friends do you military folk here have suffered trauma?

The military is doing battle for corporate interest (they aren't fighting for you and me). Military personnel are confused worse than anything -- Star Trek (the borg) Ooh-rah.. It's a death (drone) cult you can see it on the posts here. Parading about death and gun skills knowledge. There is no chivalry left in the soldier fighting today's wars because the people who organize wars have outlawed gentleman conduct. People like Rush I wish would die of his oxycotin, bragging about the military killing civilians. When it's over America nothing more than a loser.

It is irony that this is coming up on the date of 2012 for the end of the world. I am fighting my own war; I am working on NAWAPA and the colonization of space (upwards progression of the species). Don't have time to debating a war, keeping the populist war brigade happy, a war that we have no business there. The elites have exposed their hand. They have nothing to offer. They can destroy but they cannot build. They can repress but they cannot lead. The can steal but they cannot share. They are as dead and useless to us as the coffee soaked books. The New World Order has the military and so many people in hook line and sinker to their grandiose plan.

reply to post by MarkScheppy


Spot on.
The trick now though will be to out do their psychops military brainwashing.
They have had free run with the mind wars for toooooo long.
Information is the key, and the exposure of what is at play is vital.
The military are a cult that self sustains itself by constantly portraying itself both inwardly and outwardly as saviours and HEROS.
They are neither.

They have all the cards stacked in their favour, they have conned the populations into thinking there is an enemy.
They create an enemy by invading their countries and murdering that population thus cre4ating an increase in what was a mythical enemy.
They are ZIONISTS, which is the ZI in NAZI.
Now they are the USZI.
A melding of the American military with the zionists.
It is not the American population, they are simply put into FEAR by debt and unemployment.

ARE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AS EASILY DUPED AS THE GERMANS WERE????
www.youtube.com...
The self same system repeating itself.
gravitor

Originally posted by gravitor
reply to post by MarkScheppy

 

Spot on.
The trick now though will be to out do their psychops military brainwashing.
They have had free run with the mind wars for toooooo long.
Information is the key, and the exposure of what is at play is vital.
The military are a cult that self sustains itself by constantly portraying itself both inwardly and outwardly as saviours and HEROS.
They are neither.

They have all the cards stacked in their favour, they have conned the populations into thinking there is an enemy.
They create an enemy by invading their countries and murdering that population thus cre4ating an increase in what was a mythical enemy.
They are ZIONISTS, which is the ZI in NAZI.
Now they are the USZI.
A melding of the American military with the zionists.
It is not the American population, they are simply put into FEAR by debt and unemployment.

ARE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AS EASILY DUPED AS THE GERMANS WERE????
www.youtube.com...
The self same system repeating itself.
gravitor

edit on 6-12-2011 by gravitor because: to insert link

The funny part is, there is no brainwashing in the military. laugh if you want to, but no one has the time, energy or money to brainwash anyone else.

You show up, you're in uniform, you're given a job and expected to do it. It's really just that simple.

I love how people that have never served just make crap up. Tin foil hat, sir? I'll make you one. Was a sale on aluminum wrap at Safeway a few weeks ago.

Originally posted by Raivan31
reply to post by Equidae

 

Those are my observations exactly! I've heard the stories relayed before and i agree that it is a real hardship.

I've had my own 'civilian' hardships that easily compare to the ones you listed.
I've been shot at, almost killed, beaten, raped, hunted by crazy people who were armed, stabbed, slepped out in the cold on the hard ground, gone without food for several days at a time, attacked by wild animals, and on and on.
And i dealt with this all with very little help, if any, from any one else.

I know hardship.

Teamwork: Me and my best mate (who was a military skills instructor for several years among other pretty 'hollywood' roles) Work as a team exceedingly well despite my lack of training.
We share the same views and have the same grudges and issues with civillian life.

My point here is that why would i not understand these things?
How are my experiences any less dramatic and wisdom inducing then anyone else's?

I went through the things listed above with no preparation, no training, no support, no guidance and no equipment.
Surely thats worthy of at least a modicum of respect.

I'm now stuck in a disorganised, unstructured civillian environment that makes no sense to me and 'doesn't work the way it supposed to'
I work hard to get the oppoutunity to work less hard so i can feed and clothe myself and i get nowhere because i can't rely on the civillian world to play by any rules.

I've faced death on several occaisions, i know sheer terror.

And here i am now. I have things, a place to live, everything except a job and a 'better half'.
And i done all of this without the benefit of military training.
Unscarred by trials.

Then i get told that i don't understand. That my experiences are somehow 'less' then their's when quite often the experiences they had were fabricated during some training exercise. I know very few people who have actually seen 'real' combat. And the ones that have were armed when they did. They were allowed to shoot back.

Everytime i've 'shot back' (though i've never been armed as such) i've ended up answering to the police and only narrowly avoided going to jail for it.

I still whinge about petty stuff because i'm happy to only have petty stuff to complain about.

Perspective is the damdest thing you know.

ADD: The people who have seen real combat often relate to me better then the ones who have not.

How many of you know what goes through your head when faced with the probability that you will have to kill someone?

edit on 30-11-2011 by Raivan31 because: (no reason given)

Sorry for the late reply, I've been swamped by finals.

Firstly I am sorry you had to go through any of that, and I think it's amazing how well adjusted you seem (granted this is just from ATS posts, lol). You are unique in that respect. Most people do not go through even a fraction of what you've described, and they are the ones I am referring to when making generalizations. Most people in a first world society never go through any significant adversity, and can't appreciate the changes that hardship bring.

Originally posted by tangonine

Originally posted by gravitor

Originally posted by Grimpachi
reply to post by PLASIFISK

 

. Hey what's up buddy. Our little friend must have been banned then for a little while.

Correct, on another thread.
Someone calling for an attack on Iran, I called them a lunatic.
The last link was showing how music is used to motivate people to become detatched from the reality of killing others.
Whilst those who make profits are sat on the beach laughing at the mugs doing the killings.
Young men are easily turned into robots to do the wishes of their commanders.
All undertaken under the cover of WAR, with cowards scared to say anything incase they loose their pensions( blood payments).
gravitor

I think what you miss, gravitor, is that people have an annoying ability to think for themselves. This fact is not exclusive of the military. and you also are failing to acknowledge that the US military is voluntary. Now, having said that, I do understand that most liberal trust-fund kiddies don't opt for the military. That's more good than bad. But in all actuality, military training demands you think for yourself (believe it or not).

Lt Smith goes down in a firefight, you, SSgt Schmuckatelli, need to man up and THINK. You admit you've never been in the military so you probably are unfamiliar with the concept of taking over when your starbucks manager takes one in the chest and you still have to make coffee.

The whole "military people are drones" thing is a bit tired, and continually proposing that idea makes me squint my eyes and think you're not quite understanding the dynamic. But then I realize you've never served and it's as foreign to you as the surface of the moon. Thou shalt not speak about that of which thou is clueless.

I love anyone who makes a Schmuckatelli reference, though I've never seen him at the SSgt level!

reply to post by Raivan31


Raivan31, I honestly think you might be the only person on ATS to actually use their real picture as their avatar lol.

2nd

reply to post by Raivan31

You are quite correct in the respect that we do somehow see ourselves as different to the general civilian population,that is merely the training kicking in,It,s not merely in military life that you seek out those with whom you share common experiences with,this tends to happen in many sections of society where one is part of a group that somehow works or operates outside of the perceived norm.

After experiencing combat,this may sound tired and cliched,you do feel as though those who have not experienced what you have can relate to you in any way,just look at the divorce rates amongst service people for instance.In reality it is you the combat veteran who feels alienated from the rest of society,but deep down you do still possess your basic humanity,you more and more feel guilt at the actions you have undertaken during combat,sometimes you feel a sense of accomplishment,but truthfully I would have to say I felt more shame than pride during my service in the British Army.But having been a civilian now for more than 20 years I can now look forward to contributing in a positive way to society,I love animals and spend a great deal of my spare time helping and contributing to animal welfare charities,particullarly cats protection and this is infinately more fulfilling to me than were most aspects of my military service.

reply to post by Raivan31


Having served in the military (peacetime), and having been married to a career soldier, I have to say, I have NEVER seen anyone act like what you describe. The many military people we have known have strong ties to their families, and value old friends at least as much as new ones. Not one single time have I seen a new recruit turn away from their old friends or family.

As for "programming", well, heard all this before, and it simply doesn't match up, at all, with the training people receive. People learn to be more responsible, and how to work as a team, and of course, the various skills needed for military service, but there isn't any brainwashing. Now, people do move around a bit, and can thus lose touch, but that's not something anyone plans, any more than anyone else that moves away for some other job requirement.

Without actual specifics from the situations you describe in such general terms, it isn't possible to know what exactly you have seen or experienced. All I can guess is that perhaps some negative attitude towards the military causes the problem.

Originally posted by muzzleflash
What do you expect when people join a 'death-cult'?
*snip*
It's definitely a cult however, compare all of the aspects of a cult with the aspects of the military organizations.
Here is the "Cult Checklist".
cults 101
*snip*

Every single point you tried to make here is completely inaccurate. Let's go through them one by one.

The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.

Leaders are NOT simply obeyed blindly. They are expected to follow the rules, and if they don't, subordinates are NOT supposed to simply "follow orders". Obeying unlawful orders will, in fact, get a military person in big trouble.

Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.

See the above. Questioning isn't discouraged, though outright disobedience is, as it is in ANY job situation. Mouth off at your civilian boss, and you will be canned. Why would you expect the military to be different in that respect? Questions, though, are simply people wanting to understand orders, and that is encouraged.

Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).

The military doesn't use meditation or speaking in tongues, etc. PT isn't some "debilitating work routine", any more that you and your friends going to the gym is. Chanting? Be serious. I am sure you refer to the little "songs" troops use while running or marching in formation. You should know these are FUN, and that the troops are the ones starting them. Most, in fact, are good-natured joking at the expense of various military habits. Hardly some brainwashing to keep people from questioning!

The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).

The military does NOT tell people who they can and cannot date. The only restrictions are the same as in any corporation; you can't get into relationships with your superiors/inferiors. Kind of like the "no dating the boss" rule in business. The uniform is a regulation, but uniforms are required in MANY professions, and NO ONE is told what to wear with odd duty. Never has been. Where to live? Not even close! Housing on post/base is available, but no one is made to live there. People CHOOSE where they want to live. Also, the military has NEVER told people that they cannot have children, or how to raise them. That is total BS. Child abuse would be a concern, as it is for ANYONE. The military, though, even offers various resources to help families that WANT to, and CHOOSE to, use them. Sorry, but total FAIL on this one.

The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).

Flatly untrue.

The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.

Nope, sorry. People serve to protect the rest of society.

he group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members' participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).

Ethics and good behavior are praised. Bad behavior and unethical/criminal activity is punished.

The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt in order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.

Doesn't happen.

The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.

So every company that recruits new employees is a cult?

The group is preoccupied with making money.

HAHAHAHA!

Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.

Nope.

Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.

BS.

The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.

Total BS. NO ONE is threatened or demeaned for leaving the military.