Military training and it's effect on humans

Originally posted by Raivan31
reply to post by FissionSurplus

 

My guess would be that the reserve's training is no where near as tough as the main training. It may interest readers to hear that most career service men and women have an opinion of reserves as being one notch above civillians and several notch's below themselves.

Not to take away from your daughters achievements sir but this is fact and might help to explain a bit of why she turned out how she did. if they don't break you then you don't pass.

Actually, active duty and reservists take the exact same basic training, and AIT for that matter. AIT, for those that might not know, is "advanced individual training". National Guard people get some additional training, for the situations they might face.

I don't know anyone that thinks they are better for being active, as opposed to reserves. Better experience, maybe, but not better people. As for that "breaking" business, not accurate. People are taught, and learn things they didn't know, and yeah, some is HARD, and will change you, but that isn't the same as breaking someone.

Originally posted by gravitor

Originally posted by Grimpachi
reply to post by PLASIFISK

 

. Hey what's up buddy. Our little friend must have been banned then for a little while.

Correct, on another thread.
Someone calling for an attack on Iran, I called them a lunatic.
The last link was showing how music is used to motivate people to become detatched from the reality of killing others.
Whilst those who make profits are sat on the beach laughing at the mugs doing the killings.
Young men are easily turned into robots to do the wishes of their commanders.
All undertaken under the cover of WAR, with cowards scared to say anything incase they loose their pensions( blood payments).
gravitor

You and I are going to disagree on parts of this. One of my best friends makes mandolins my hippie buddy. Music is a separator, for certain. And he served, and he served honorably. He hated most of it, but we loved him like a brother (still do).

However. at the end of the day, the other guy likely (Most likely... like 99.99% likely) doesn't care and he wants what you have. At the end of that day, you want trained, well-armed, very dangerous, selfless men and women keeping those wolves at bay. It's part of being human. Might be a part you don't like, hell... none of us like it... but it's there and for the entire recorded history of mankind: you need us.

And there is a magnified qualitative difference between the US soldier/sailor/airman/marine than any other nation one earth. To wit: we're all volunteer. Most nations have compulsory service.

I've trained military personnel from many nations. They didn't (including those crazy Canadians) actually care about what they were doing. They did it because 1) they were told to and/or 2) they had to feed their family.

We are unique. Our men and women serve because it's honorable to serve. It means something, and we don't care how much you that don't serve honorably diminish it: when that flag is raised at 0700, it really means more than you can know to us.

(I add the "serve honorably" bit because I've personally discharged a few scumbags who dishonored themselves, as well as the uniform they wore).

reply to post by tangonine


Tangonine,
Mandolin music is not what is been played in the tanks.
It would actually require a seperate thread to discuss music, and how the frequencies have been altered .
All of which was started by Mr goebells, and then taken on by GB in particuler after WW11.
music sure is a seperator, from human to animal.
Solfeggio is natures music.

As for "keeping the wolves at bay"
WHO are the wolves around the world presently????
WHO has invaded other nations???
No wolves attacked America, they were self inflicted attacks to motivate the easily motivated with fear and hatred.
THE WOLVES WERE LET LOOSE.
And they sing a very nasty song.

Originally posted by gravitor
reply to post by tangonine

 

Tangonine,
Mandolin music is not what is been played in the tanks.
It would actually require a seperate thread to discuss music, and how the frequencies have been altered .
All of which was started by Mr goebells, and then taken on by GB in particuler after WW11.
music sure is a seperator, from human to animal.
Solfeggio is natures music.

As for "keeping the wolves at bay"
WHO are the wolves around the world presently????
WHO has invaded other nations???
No wolves attacked America, they were self inflicted attacks to motivate the easily motivated with fear and hatred.
THE WOLVES WERE LET LOOSE.
And they sing a very nasty song.

Yeah... I didn't say he was playing his mandolin in a tank. If you followed the link he'd climbed Adam's Glacier and played it at the top. Was just giving you a side link I thought you'd enjoy, not something I'd figured you'd use as ammunition in your post, but oh well. Not surprised. Well... a little surprised... took you for a thinking man. In any case:

If you're unaware of the threats to the united states, I'd advise you to leave your ice cave. Or ask your jailers to pull you out of solitary for a few minutes.

No one has the balls to go muzzle to muzzle with the US, so they do it this way:

news.yahoo.com...

www.defensenews.com...

www.washingtontimes.com...

I've long been a proponent of having a bunch of crazy computer geeks in a room where you slide pizzas under the door and just tell them to "kill everything!" as a branch of the military, but I guess I was too forward thinking for my time.

If you don't know who the wolves are... well. wow. Guess that ice cave is really icy.

Originally posted by BIGPoJo
reply to post by Raivan31

 

Lets take a real look at why service men think they are "better" than their "civy" friends, its because they are. They are making a sacrifice while their civy friends are making pizza. They can run forever while their civy friends are stuck on the couch. They play real war games while their civy friends play XBOX. They risk their lives while their civy friends risk nothing. They are in athletic shape while their civy friends are in a pear shape. Better indeed.

EDIT - Watch this war propaganda to educate yourself about servicemen.

edit on 15-11-2011 by BIGPoJo because: (no reason given)

It's civilians that provide the tax revenue to feed the bloated beast of the military. I wish we could relive the days when the US army would cut back after a major war was concluded. The current standard of having a large standing army with a huge war capital commitment is very foreign to traditional American policy before WWII. The founders of American government were very much opposed to standing armies. Now we have the military feeding off us and trying to govern us, the producers of wealth. Huge military budgets destroy wealth and enslave the people it feeds off of. Military governance of its rank and file is a parody of civilian government with its military courts and top down authority. Who really cares for military music or KP food or military humor? The culture is crude and offensive. Yes, the military has a good number of geniuses, but I do not want any more ideas on nonlethal weapons or how to build a better bomb or how to drain the sea or how to mind control people. I would like to have a toilet flushes waste in one flip or dishwasher that fits large amounts of dishes in one cycle. I am disgusted with a military culture, that can up with a missile that can use a tv camera to bomb an electric plant, getting all the money, talent, and resources, while the rest of the country can't even get rid of the potholes on its roads. I think it is Eric Blair, who said in 1984: The productivity of the economy produces consumer goods with poor quality so that the life blood the country can be wasted in military affairs in order to keep people poor and miserable. The military brass gets Buck Rogers technology while the rest us sink into feudal poverty. The military industrial complex is a God damn tapeworm. And I am tired of the arrogant SOB's in it, who think I should be shining their jack boots for them! Go get a real job!

Originally posted by artfuldodger

Originally posted by BIGPoJo
reply to post by Raivan31

 

Lets take a real look at why service men think they are "better" than their "civy" friends, its because they are. They are making a sacrifice while their civy friends are making pizza. They can run forever while their civy friends are stuck on the couch. They play real war games while their civy friends play XBOX. They risk their lives while their civy friends risk nothing. They are in athletic shape while their civy friends are in a pear shape. Better indeed.

EDIT - Watch this war propaganda to educate yourself about servicemen.

edit on 15-11-2011 by BIGPoJo because: (no reason given)

It's civilians that provide the tax revenue to feed the bloated beast of the military. I wish we could relive the days when the US army would cut back after a major war was concluded. The current standard of having a large standing army with a huge war capital commitment is very foreign to traditional American policy before WWII. The founders of American government were very much opposed to standing armies. Now we have the military feeding off us and trying to govern us, the producers of wealth. Huge military budgets destroy wealth and enslave the people it feeds off of. Military governance of its rank and file is a parody of civilian government with its military courts and top down authority. Who really cares for military music or KP food or military humor? The culture is crude and offensive. Yes, the military has a good number of geniuses, but I do not want any more ideas on nonlethal weapons or how to build a better bomb or how to drain the sea or how to mind control people. I would like to have a toilet flushes waste in one flip or dishwasher that fits large amounts of dishes in one cycle. I am disgusted with a military culture, that can up with a missile that can use a tv camera to bomb an electric plant, getting all the money, talent, and resources, while the rest of the country can't even get rid of the potholes on its roads. I think it is Eric Blair, who said in 1984: The productivity of the economy produces consumer goods with poor quality so that the life blood the country can be wasted in military affairs in order to keep people poor and miserable. The military brass gets Buck Rogers technology while the rest us sink into feudal poverty. The military industrial complex is a God damn tapeworm. And I am tired of the arrogant SOB's in it, who think I should be shining their jack boots for them! Go get a real job!

edit on 14-12-2011 by artfuldodger because: No need for vid.

Pretty sure the populace "feeds off of us" via entitlement programs without anyone complaining. You may be unaware of this fact: but the people that serve in the military pay taxes, too. In fact, they pay more taxes than 50% of the population.

The military acquisitions process is the culprit, not the people wearing the uniform, and you can blame DC for that. Both republican and democrat.

reply to post by tangonine


I gently ask you, we don't need your soldiering- please go home. I appreciate your idealism and sense of sacrifice, but I would rather you went home, and served humanity in some other fashion. I remember asking Zbigniew Brzezinski to quit being a military strategist, because he was not increasing anyone's social welfare( a purely economic term in this sense). I said to him, "You have broad muscular Polish shoulders and arms that would be perfect for a job as baker making rustic, hearty breads." I wish Thomas PM Barnett would get a job as an accountant or an actuary. I feel that we are in a bubble like the real estate bubble; it's the military economy bubble.

Originally posted by artfuldodger
reply to post by tangonine

 

I gently ask you, we don't need your soldiering- please go home. I appreciate your idealism and sense of sacrifice, but I would rather you went home, and served humanity in some other fashion. I remember asking Zbigniew Brzezinski to quit being a military strategist, because he was not increasing anyone's social welfare( a purely economic term in this sense). I said to him, "You have broad muscular Polish shoulders and arms that would be perfect for a job as baker making rustic, hearty breads." I wish Thomas PM Barnett would get a job as an accountant or an actuary. I feel that we are in a bubble like the real estate bubble; it's the military economy bubble.

I am home. Live in Colorado. I'm actually not a guy with "broad muscular" anything. Just one of the citizenry that chose to write a blank check to the people of the United States that read "Up to, and Including, My Life."

You despise me and people like me, well, the feeling is mutual.

reply to post by tangonine


I do not despise you. I am just saying you aren't helping. I know you mean well, and you think you are doing this great service. But couldn't you go to a nice trade school and learn to fix diesel engines? The last part of the economy to go bust is the military. That ride is not going to last anyhow, and those clowns in Washington are only going to ask you to do more unethical wetwork. I'd be happy if you joined a private militia group to protect us. The American military that most were really proud of came out of World War II. It isn't there any more. It is like being regular army in the Bundeswehr in 1934, and then serving through the rise of Hitler. The Bundeswehr may have been fine organization up to '34, and it had a lot of proud Prussian tradition behind. You had a pretty uniform, and you had this wonderful code of honor. You felt like some knight serving under King Arthur, but you had a strange feeling that things were going wrong. How much better it would have been if there had been military types who smelled the coffee and went underground. Stay in the army and you might be instructed to shoot American citizens w/o a trial. You are a lion being led by jackasses.

Originally posted by artfuldodger
reply to post by tangonine

 

I do not despise you. I am just saying you aren't helping. I know you mean well, and you think you are doing this great service. But couldn't you go to a nice trade school and learn to fix diesel engines? The last part of the economy to go bust is the military. That ride is not going to last anyhow, and those clowns in Washington are only going to ask you to do more unethical wetwork. I'd be happy if you joined a private militia group to protect us. The American military that most were really proud of came out of World War II. It isn't there any more. It is like being regular army in the Bundeswehr in 1934, and then serving through the rise of Hitler. The Bundeswehr may have been fine organization up to '34, and it had a lot of proud Prussian tradition behind. You had a pretty uniform, and you had this wonderful code of honor. You felt like some knight serving under King Arthur, but you had a strange feeling that things were going wrong. How much better it would have been if there had been military types who smelled the coffee and went underground. Stay in the army and you might be instructed to shoot American citizens w/o a trial. You are a lion being led by jackasses.

edit on 14-12-2011 by artfuldodger because: (no reason given)

edit on 14-12-2011 by artfuldodger because: (no reason given)

What people seem to misunderstand here is that military personnel are not robots. They are just like anyone else. The only difference is they are agreeing to do difficult work for the greater good. I know if I was asked to shoot an American citizen I would put my weapon down and wait for the court martial. The people I served with were no different. You don't lose your family, friends, or cotnact with the outside world when you join. Soldiers are not the boogey men, and they do not run around trying to implement an Apocalypse Now redux.

And private militia? That sounds like Blackwater to me, and we all know how well they turned out. Private militias also have the moral quandary of: having no allegiance except to whoever owns the The military is subject to United States Law, the Uniform Code of Military Justice, and the Geneva Convention.

The military does have an enormous budget, but most of that money isn't going to any of the personnel. That money is funneled into weapons systems, and expensive defense contracts. I recently got out, and I was making barely above minimum wage. Joining for money is the stupidest thing you could do since you don't make much of anything.

Originally posted by artfuldodger
reply to post by tangonine

 

I do not despise you. I am just saying you aren't helping. I know you mean well, and you think you are doing this great service. But couldn't you go to a nice trade school and learn to fix diesel engines? The last part of the economy to go bust is the military. That ride is not going to last anyhow, and those clowns in Washington are only going to ask you to do more unethical wetwork. I'd be happy if you joined a private militia group to protect us. The American military that most were really proud of came out of World War II. It isn't there any more. It is like being regular army in the Bundeswehr in 1934, and then serving through the rise of Hitler. The Bundeswehr may have been fine organization up to '34, and it had a lot of proud Prussian tradition behind. You had a pretty uniform, and you had this wonderful code of honor. You felt like some knight serving under King Arthur, but you had a strange feeling that things were going wrong. How much better it would have been if there had been military types who smelled the coffee and went underground. Stay in the army and you might be instructed to shoot American citizens w/o a trial. You are a lion being led by jackasses.

edit on 14-12-2011 by artfuldodger because: (no reason given)

edit on 14-12-2011 by artfuldodger because: (no reason given)

It never ceases to amaze me how people that have no clue about the military can have so much to say about. Your militia is basically the National Guard. I know this is a conspiracy site but you talk about waking up and smelling the coffee may I suggest you do the same. For those of us who have served our country we know what it is to be a civilian and we have been soldiers. We can speak for both sides because it is a matter of experience and knowledge which gives us wisdom. Stop using terms like wet work you obviously do not have a clue about what a soldier is. I believe you have us confused with the character in a movie that you watch and for that matter the character must have been an assassin or spy and not a soldier. Wet work really? I don't think I have ever used that term or heard it while I was in the military.

I tell you what, there is a TV show called on bomb patrol Afghanistan it is the real deal. Try watching a few episodes of that before you chime again. Maybe just maybe you will get an idea of what it is really like out there. To be honest those guys are pretty lax but it is only because their job is so damn dangerous that they can get away with not being dress right dress.

Originally posted by MarkScheppy

Originally posted by tangonine
Lt Smith goes down in a firefight, you, SSgt Schmuckatelli, need to man up and THINK. You admit you've never been in the military so you probably are unfamiliar with the concept of taking over when your starbucks manager takes one in the chest and you still have to make coffee.

The whole "military people are drones" thing is a bit tired, and continually proposing that idea makes me squint my eyes and think you're not quite understanding the dynamic. But then I realize you've never served and it's as foreign to you as the surface of the moon. Thou shalt not speak about that of which thou is clueless.

Alex Jones-- in March played clips of soldiers taunting Afghanistan boys like psychopath serial killers. This harkens to my opinion I had about Lawrence of Arabia. The "peace" after was not planned out very well there. And listening to these British soldiers reminds me why I have a moral belief about the war. The arming of the Taliban and making them fight the Russians as our Allies and then twenty years later invading their country and killing them and attacking civilians (calling it a peace) makes no sense. If you are in the Cabal it makes sense but the cabal aren't the ones coming back home after fighting suffering trauma. Soap, how many of your friends do you military folk here have suffered trauma?

The military is doing battle for corporate interest (they aren't fighting for you and me). Military personnel are confused worse than anything -- Star Trek (the borg) Ooh-rah.. It's a death (drone) cult you can see it on the posts here. Parading about death and gun skills knowledge. There is no chivalry left in the soldier fighting today's wars because the people who organize wars have outlawed gentleman conduct. People like Rush I wish would die of his oxycotin, bragging about the military killing civilians. When it's over America nothing more than a loser.

It is irony that this is coming up on the date of 2012 for the end of the world. I am fighting my own war; I am working on NAWAPA and the colonization of space (upwards progression of the species). Don't have time to debating a war, keeping the populist war brigade happy, a war that we have no business there. The elites have exposed their hand. They have nothing to offer. They can destroy but they cannot build. They can repress but they cannot lead. The can steal but they cannot share. They are as dead and useless to us as the coffee soaked books. The New World Order has the military and so many people in hook line and sinker to their grandiose plan.

edit on 5-12-2011 by MarkScheppy because: add

Actually that 'gentlemen conduct' is still very much in place. When I was in I was taught about the UCMJ and the Laws of War/Geneva Convention. If you want to complain about someone not following them, then go petition the insurgents since they apparently don't know that it's wrong to shoot from crowds, behead locals who disagree, cut off a man's ears/finders/nose for voting, and kidnap children so they can set an IED in place with us not being a able to do anything. Our code of conduct more often and not puts the military in danger.

And your whole can't build thing is also mistaken. We built the locals a bridge, helped build a school, gave free immunizations and physicals for the locals and their livestock. We even organized a school supplies drive.

Originally posted by nake13
reply to post by Raivan31

 

You are quite correct in the respect that we do somehow see ourselves as different to the general civilian population,that is merely the training kicking in,It,s not merely in military life that you seek out those with whom you share common experiences with,this tends to happen in many sections of society where one is part of a group that somehow works or operates outside of the perceived norm.

After experiencing combat,this may sound tired and cliched,you do feel as though those who have not experienced what you have can relate to you in any way,just look at the divorce rates amongst service people for instance.In reality it is you the combat veteran who feels alienated from the rest of society,but deep down you do still possess your basic humanity,you more and more feel guilt at the actions you have undertaken during combat,sometimes you feel a sense of accomplishment,but truthfully I would have to say I felt more shame than pride during my service in the British Army.But having been a civilian now for more than 20 years I can now look forward to contributing in a positive way to society,I love animals and spend a great deal of my spare time helping and contributing to animal welfare charities,particullarly cats protection and this is infinately more fulfilling to me than were most aspects of my military service.

I wouldn't say it's guilt. I am not ashamed of anything I've done because I never did anything worthy of reproach. Same goes for my friends. The alienation comes from returning to a society that has no way to relate to your experiences. It's hard to find words to describe things they have never seen. Combat is traumatic. You are away from your family for long periods, you work in extreme conditions, you see abject poverty, you get close calls, you see people hurt or dying. Then you go home, and see people slap a yellow ribbon magnet on their car before switching to Glee and they think that is supporting the troops. One of my closest friends died there, and I think about him every day. I'll sometimes think I see him or others in crowds, I hear thumps which sound like mortars to me. But you can't really find words to help another person relate if they've never been through what you have.

I think it's more accurate to say the alienation is a byproduct of the grief and nostalgia that are central to those sorts of experiences..

Some prime examples of the Heartless-Borg-Genocidal military who are brainwashed to have no emotions. Their visible grief at the death of locals and their comrades is obviously a charade.:








They obviously need no further training to massacre Americans with no remorse or abstract thought.

Originally posted by Equidae

What people seem to misunderstand here is that military personnel are not robots. They are just like anyone else. The only difference is they are agreeing to do difficult work for the greater good. I know if I was asked to shoot an American citizen I would put my weapon down and wait for the court martial. The people I served with were no different. You don't lose your family, friends, or cotnact with the outside world when you join. Soldiers are not the boogey men, and they do not run around trying to implement an Apocalypse Now redux.

And private militia? That sounds like Blackwater to me, and we all know how well they turned out. Private militias also have the moral quandary of: having no allegiance except to whoever owns the The military is subject to United States Law, the Uniform Code of Military Justice, and the Geneva Convention.

The military does have an enormous budget, but most of that money isn't going to any of the personnel. That money is funneled into weapons systems, and expensive defense contracts. I recently got out, and I was making barely above minimum wage. Joining for money is the stupidest thing you could do since you don't make much of anything.

I think you know I am not talking about Blackwater. I was speaking of groups of citizens going into to the woods to practice readiness training. I am sure that not all soldiers are robots. I do agree that most of the money is going to weapons and hardware. It may go very hard on you if you stand on your principles as a soldier so firmly that you go through court martial, but that is your choice. I also feel that in some soldiers their code of ethics may fail them in the tribulations to come. It is a very hard thing to buck authority. Many soldiers in the Third Reich German army hated what they were commanded to do, but did it anyway. They later drenched their sorrows and guilt in alcohol after the dirty deeds were done. I am offering caution.

We do have people like that in America, and they're usually affiliated with the Neo-Nazis in some way. I would not trust a group of socially, religiously, and ethnically homogenous rednecks with little more than a GED to make the sorts of decisions that a military unit has to. Tellingly, they also have only a small number of actual military veterans. I'd much rather have someone join the military since at least there are rules and consequences in place, not to mention the rigorous training required for someone who has to make those sorts of decisions.

Military training isn't just running around shoot targets. There is rigorous psychological, teamwork, situational analysis, medical, leadership, and legal training that everyone in the military gets. 'I didn't know', 'I didn't mean to', and 'I was following orders' aren't tolerable excuses for misconduct in today's military. You are held accountable for not only your actions, but those of your peers and subordinates. You are required to do everything you can to stop an illegal or unethical situation. To ignore something of that nature means you are held equally accountable even if you didn't pull the trigger.

Everyone in the Third Reich was constantly bombarded with eugenics lessons, not the mention that they were being deployed for Lebensraum. They were also socially, culturally, and ethnically exactly alike. The inhumanity of the people they were conquering was also constantly reinforced. Even then the Germans only barely managed it since many of the Einsatzgruppen personnel developed severe psychological problems. That is most definitely not the case in the modern US Military. If anything they refuse to shut up about the Laws of War. Makes for boring Powerpoint presentations every couple of months, but it also leaves you with no questions as to how you are expected to conduct yourselves.

When I was in Afghanistan almost half the MEDEVAC requests we sent were for local nationals, and wounded insurgents. The MEDEVAC request form actually has a designator for enemy wounded, and it was used quite a bit. It was a matter of policy. Treatment was compulsory for any wound that might have been a consequence of combat (serious or not.) Treatment was also compulsory for any injury that could result in the loss of life, limb, or sight. The only leeway we had was for minor injuries unrelated to combat (car wreck, broken arm from a fall, etc), and even then we more often than not sent them to be treated.

The occasions that war crimes are committed (Abu Ghraib, Haditha, the Army platoon in Afghanistan that took fingers off of civilians they murdered) show you that when something does happen that the military doesn't play around that sort of thing. They are sent to jail, and end up with a Bad Conduct or Dishonorable Discharge. Those are no joke, and having one ruins the rest of your life when or if you get released. You're essentially a convicted felon: you can't vote, can't own a firearm, can't get any veteran's benefits, can't get any federal aid for school, can't get any grants for a business, etc. You are also pretty much ineligible to get a job of any kind ever again since your record is only a quick Google/background check away, and nobody wants to employ a war criminal.

The military isn't like the movies: disobeying an order does not lead to being shot on the spot. As much as you are taught to follow orders, you never lose common sense or the capacity to reason. If anything you would be more likely to shoot at foreigners than your own people. The American military is diverse enough that you can't help but humanize other Americans who are different. I had never met many Hispanics, Asians, Mormons, or Catholics before my enlistment. But the military is a diverse place, and I met people who were of those and other minorities. So I was able to humanize them in a way I hadn't been able to before by virtue of serving with people from those backgrounds. I'm sure it was mutual for those who hadn't met someone like me: a rural white American from the Southeastern United States. Not exactly an auspicious start for developing a capacity to murder your own countrymen.

The Soviet army refused to fire on their own people when the government was being overthrown. I would expect the same if the US military was sent after their own people on their own soil. All in all the American military (and imo the NATO military) is a long way off from the Wehrmacht or SS.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

This is the consequences of DOING AS YOUR TOLD.
WAKE UP.
Coming to America?

Originally posted by gravitor
www.abovetopsecret.com...

This is the consequences of DOING AS YOUR TOLD.
WAKE UP.
Coming to America?

Did you not read my previous post? 'I didn't know' 'I didn't mean to' and 'I was just following orders' are not valid excuses, and will not get you out of legal trouble in the military. It doesn't work on petty offenses, and it most definitely won't work for war crimes.

An example: I was an Corporal in the Marines. That means I was in charge of junior enlisted guys. Sort of a middle management supervisor. If I was riding in a car with my fellow Marines, and they were ticketed for speeding then whoever else in the car ranked higher than the driver gets in just as much (if not more) trouble. It doesn't matter if I was in the back seat sleeping, I would still be held responsible. Same goes for uniform inspections. If one of my Marines failed, then I as their NCO would be in trouble right alongside them.

You are held responsible for the actions of your peers and subordinates. Being told to shoot someone who is firing at you in a combat zone is a far cry from being told to shoot civilians at a demonstration in the United States.

The shooting Americans scenario becomes even less likely when you realize that it is illegal to deploy active duty or reserve personnel on American soil. The National Guard is the only branch of service that is allowed to do that. They are a part of the military, but are paid by their home state and can only be mobilized at the discretion of the state's Governor. Not to mention that since Guard members spend only one weekend a month and two weeks of summer training a year they are even less likely to be coerced into killing Americans since they never truly live apart from the civilian world. The process is intentionally way too convoluted for some scheming federal politician to con into killing Americans.

Originally posted by gravitor
www.abovetopsecret.com...

This is the consequences of DOING AS YOUR TOLD.
WAKE UP.
Coming to America?

To compare the American military to the Egyptian military is absurd. There is a firm and intentional distance between American military leaders and politicians. American military personnel cannot run for office, nor can they endorse a candidate. While on active duty you are also not eligible for government appointments that don't involve the military (Secretary of Education for instance.) There are also heavy restrictions on being present at protests. You are not allowed to appear at one in your uniform (or parts of your uniform) so long as you are a member of the military. You can say, "I Joe Schmo like this candidate;" however, bringing in your rank or military duties is strictly forbidden.

There are also heavy restrictions on displaying political signage. You are allowed to have a small bumper sticker or magnet on your car. Even then it has to be generic. Something along the lines of, "Marines For (candidate name)" are not allowed.

Middle Eastern militaries are dangerously intertwined with politicians and governments. The United States has specific, longstanding, and firm laws that prevent this. The deployment of military personnel has to go through several channels. If the President wanted to send Marines to round up and kill Americans it would have to get from him, to Congressmen, to the Joint Chief of Staff, to the military heads of that branch, to the Regiment commander, to the Battalion commander, to the Company commander, to the Platoon commander, and so on. That's got to be one hell of an evil politician who can bribe or browbeat that many people into doing anything that blatantly evil.

Soldiers are obligated to refuse illegal orders. This is not the Hollywood version of the military, you will not be dragged out and shot or beaten for refusing an order. You can get in trouble if it is a legitimate order (saluting officers, standing watch, etc), but it's pretty obvious that illegally deploying on American soil to murder demonstrators is a bad idea that you shouldn't follow through with. Otherwise I'm sure Nixon would have had the military rampaging across the United States to kill people he was paranoid about.

Originally posted by tangonine

Originally posted by gravitor

Originally posted by Grimpachi
reply to post by PLASIFISK

 

edit on 19-12-2011 by steveknows because: (no reason given)