CALLING ALL MILITARY! Former and current!

Here are my thoughts on the subject:

Rounding up civilians would be acceptable to me in cases of emergency evacuation. Of course, you have to believe in the emergency and those who portray the emergency as being legit. I use as an example, hurricane Katrina. A lot of people risked their lives saving mobile, cognisant civilians who just did not want to leave. If a true evacuation was enforced prior, the rescues could have been more effective for those left behind. Of course, this does not speak to those who were incapable of leaving on their own accord.

Second, I would "return" fire on civilians if I or my Marines were attacked. To initiate that type of action however, would be difficult for me to do. This is hypothetical though. So many factors come into play that for anyone to say for sure what he\she would or would not do is not being realistic.

As most conspiracy believers on this site will attest, I do believe the government's first priority is to protect itself above all others. The contigency plans to ensure continuity of government under crisis is proof of this.

So in the end, the situation will dictate the response. Are there gray areas?
You bet.

I'll just say IRAQ and AFGHANISTAN.Both illegal wars.
Orders illegal but yet were and still are being carried out because of what was/is told.

Why would orders still be obeyed in a homeland situation?
Because wether you know it or not you have had NLP from day one of training.

Not necessarily at a Grunt level (No offence meant) but definitely above and the top trained units.
Those of you still serving and ex know as well as I do,a specialized unit of a few could take out a battalion+ of grunts without breaking a sweat.
Taking on the average Joe,well take your pick of sayings.Picnic in the park,turkey shoot.etc.

I think that something has been overlooked in the entire conversation here about "would US soldiers fire on their own citizens"? and that is historical precedent.

I had mentioned that National Guard units participated in the confiscation of private firearms after hurricane Katrina but there are many other instances besides that and Kent State, off the top of my head here are a few;

japanese-american internment in WW2

Bonus army

Coal miners strikes (1870-1930's)

Steel workers strikes (circa. 1900)

1863 NYC draft riots

Whiskey rebellion

Shay's rebellion

Nearly every organized fight against native american tribes from 1787 to the wounded knee/AIM takeover.

Need I go on?

Retired Navy man here. Just check US history. Japanese internment during WWII, My Lai Massacre, Kent State, and Bush and his sick peoples in charge for the last 8 years. Most people will always follow those in charge or who seem like they are in charge. It's too much work to think for yourself.

There has always been a precedent of military action on civilian populations. No country is immune to civil unrest or abuse of power from governing entities.

The question you should ask is, do you see your government abusing its power? And\or do you see your population instigating unrest? Either scenario or a combination of both will lead to history repeating itself.

Simply.. I Would not follow any order from any military personnel that is unconstitutional. I am an oathkeeper.

USMC, US Army

"As a retired army ranger of a long 30 year service... and also a member of the large Idaho free milita that has kept itself quitet for a good long time... yea, we would stand and fight tyranny and any and all that go against the constitution...."

How come you americans are so fascinated by your constitution? You really think it gives your army the right to massacre and dominate the world around you or even on homeground? You kill a man, a woman a child and feel great cause you are told you are defending the constitution!
You bring a multimillion dollar airplane to drop a massace on Irak ground and thats legit, it is defending the constitution..a man drives a vehicle full of explosives into a group of USA soldiers and it is terrorism..as long your constitution is brainwashing you it is ok in your eyes.
Last time you fought a war on homeland was your civil war, all wars thereafter are carried out abroad. Your american army has nothing to be proud of, and you all "soldiers" are only tools being used, only your family cares when you die.

I wont bet, dont need to, i believe you. You are one of those ignorant brainwashed suck#% one should fear. You are the one that will and are happy to kill in the name of freedom..just another ignorant soldier following orders fighting tyranny in gods name.

This ill bet; how many Iraki soldiers (or the ones you call terrorist) fight and die because they are on tyranny´s side? ALL soldiers believe they do the right thing, that is the brainwash, that is the indoctrination..there are no soldiers on the "bad guys" side! ALL are in the right, the good side, GODS side...ALL die and kill for noble good reasons and i whope all will stand infront of the creator whomever it is and answer for his actions.
A killer is a killer.

[edit on 29-7-2009 by gusan]

Originally posted by Barak89
Simply.. I Would not follow any order from any military personnel that is unconstitutional. I am an oathkeeper.

USMC, US Army

\

Bull! You will do what you are order to do. Failure to do so doing and you can and will be shot during war or any emergency declared by CIC and or Congress.

Originally posted by CK_OK

Second, I would "return" fire on civilians if I or my Marines were attacked. To initiate that type of action however, would be difficult for me to do.

I can guarantee if you and your Marines, were forcing evacuations and roaming the city "rounding people up" due to an emergency (real or fake), and you were DISARMING people, revoking everyone's 2nd Amendment rights "for their own safety ", just like during Katrina...well then you and your Marines WILL probably be fired upon...and rightfully so since those actions are not "protecting the constitution", and actually doing the opposite.

When your Marines are hit with .223 rifle fire for attempting to disarm civilians, it will have the same effect as when you "return" fire on those same civilians. Your Marines blood is the same color as that of the civilians, not to mention the same color as the Iraqis and Afghanis who the US Armed forces have been mowing down in large quantities for years now.

If you come to my neighborhood looking to disarm Civilians, no matter what the contrived emergency is, then you are not Protecting Freedom or the Constitution, and are and enemy to our Constitutional Republic. Your being fired upon will be the direct result of that, and recently people around here have been arming themselves to the teeth (possibly for this very reason).

reply to post by ManBehindTheMask

Well they will marginalize certain groups first, and blame it on
one demographic at a time.

They will have them rounded up "for their protection"

Only those who resist will be "domestic terrorists"

The troops who do not follow orders will be court martialed.

It will start out pretty tame with ppl being shipped off to HR 645 land.

Those camps mentioned in HR 645 will be for " your protection "
for whatever reason.

Ppl will resist and raise hell , and they will be sent a " red camp "
for hostiles.

Blue and green camps will hold ppl that are lesser degrees.

It will get a little nutty some time after that.

Also I think we will see NATO or UN troops helping our government
restore order here in the US, and that is when things will get really wild.

My plan is to not be a victim of the many miss understandings that
are likely to take place, so out of sight, is out of mind.

When the hundreds of banks start failing, and things continue to
descend we will see various things unspool, and the concrete jungles
will not be safe to stay in anymore.

Pockets of "LA style riots" will spring up and sections of cities will get
burned out.

If you get too many fires going there is not enough water pressure.

Ppl who try to grow food will have it stolen out of their yard by those
who don't have seeds, or the know how.

The bitter, the angry, the insane will all add their spice to party.

Alot of ppl think Hyperinflation only hit a handful of countries.

Hyperinflation Nation

Educate yourselves my friends.

To know the future, look to the past, in the ways of man there is
little new under the sun.





[edit on 29-7-2009 by Ex_MislTech]

reply to post by Paroxysm


You know it is real easy to be Billy Bad A$$ on the internet. I am sure you are willing to shoot at anyone willing to take away your rights to bare arms. So if that day comes, and I am on the other end, we shall see.

Originally posted by CK_OK
The question you should ask is, do you see your government abusing its power?

Of course. I have watched it abuse it's power, grant itself even more power, and then continue to abuse said powers unabated, for pretty much my entire lifetime.

Go re-read the constitution if you believe the the Federal Government is supposed to have this much power.

Originally posted by CK_OK

You know it is real easy to be Billy Bad A$$ on the internet.

LOL...ok,
I promise you I will not surrender my Liberty/Freedom without a fight...and for the record that is really one of the only things I am willing to die for.




"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" --Benjamin Franklin

"They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety." --Benjamin Franklin

[edit on 29-7-2009 by Paroxysm]

reply to post by Paroxysm


So we are pretty much like minded except you defend your rights and family. Since I am in the military I usually defend your rights, your family, and mine. I also though defend my fellow Marines which will trump you and yours if you get my drift. Either way, I personally have never had any intention of stripping civilians of anything.
That being said, I would not hesitate to do so to save my guys lives. Whether that is something you dislike or do not agree with makes no difference. It is common sense. So given the order, yes as is the precedent, todays military can\will engage elements of society as was the case in Katrina in disarming civilians.

I took the oath too, and am an oathkeeper currently. I had no idea there were so many active duty Gyrines on board... Semper Fi brothers!

That said, I noticed one of my brothers (perhaps) attempting to chew on his own foot.

Let me correct you, young brother.

IF ANYBODY attempts to actively persue violating my Bill of Rights, especially the Second Amendment... That includes my brothers in the Corps... Perhaps especially my bretheren...They will find themselves on the wrong end of this Marine's muzzle.

The point is, I believe in the Constitution of the United States, pre-14th Amendment. PERIOD. The founding fathers produced this document for the protection of the People from tyrannical government. Anybody that does not see the gradual usurping of this sacred document from shortly after it's ratification is blind to fact, or simply miseducated.

To follow orders that would go against the Bill of Rights is treasonous. You know what the UCMJ calls for in cases of treason, right?

For more information, read my signature line, pick up the book... Whatever it takes. For God's sake though... there is NO reason to "round folks up" for their "safety". If people are truly in danger, they'll flock to safe areas, or die.

Don't believe the spin TPTB are going to try to feed you.

reply to post by cbianchi513


This is getting really old.

First, rounding people up is not something I support. It happens in war, and civil unrest IS WAR folks. Plain and simple. Natural disasters ARE WAR. It is called martial law. Once invoked, your rights and mine are out the freakin window. I did not write the damn policy but if ordered to implement it... well USMC-- U Signed the Mother F Contract! Now will I mow down innocent civilians? No. Will I return fire? Yes, and at that point you are no longer innocent. So all of the chest thumpers who spout what they do and don't believe have no input once the SHTF. It is either do as your told in a martial state, or be subjugated. Is it right? Hell no! Do you think I like it? No. But if I were ordered into a riot and came under attack, I would level your self-righteous collective asses or die in the process as was reminded to me by the Billy Bad A$$es in the forum.

Everyone keeps mentioning oaths. Does "all enemies foreign and DOMESTIC" ring a bell? It isn't in there for show.
I am realistic not idealistic.

I am done with this thread so fire away. Just understand that your government cares first and foremost for protecting itself. If I and the rest of the military see this, then unless you attack us, you probably won't see the conflict you are predicting.

The situation will dictate the response.

Originally posted by CK_OK
That being said, I would not hesitate to do so to save my guys lives. Whether that is something you dislike or do not agree with makes no difference. It is common sense. So given the order, yes as is the precedent, todays military can\will engage elements of society as was the case in Katrina in disarming civilians.

There's that military Brainwashing kicking in.
This is why I have lost respect for a lot of todays serving troops, this and the fact that most of them seriously believe the lines fed to them regarding "We have to fight them over there, so that we're not fighting them here". This is a load of bull, and anybody capable of critical thinking on their own is able to see that invading and waging war and acts of aggression on sovereign nations across the globe is not "protecting our freedoms and way of life", but in contrast is only creating more hostility and hate towards all Americans.
I also wanted to note that during all of these "wars" (especially last decade or so) for "protecting my freedoms", which these "suits" keep sending you off to fight, the same "suits" have been here stateside enacting law, after law eroding those very same freedoms which they had told you and your comrades you're fighting to protect.

I will leave you with a little dose of reality for your future duties and orders which you may have to carry out:
If you are to follow such orders, despite whatever precedence you are crutching on as and excuse for your actions, then YOU and the troops following your command ARE the domestic ENEMY'S of our contitutional republic. If you think that by following such bogus/unconstitutional orders you are "saving your guys lives" you are delusional, and are actually putting them in much more danger by doing so.

Please do us all a favor and go re-read the constitution and federalist papers. Your ridiculous precedents mean nothing to those of us which actually understand these documents, and what LIBERTY actually means.

I think it is most sad that some in the US Armed Services today actually believe that "todays military can\will engage elements of (American) society", due to a couple bogus precedent's. If this is the view shared by the majority of our service men, then US Civil War #2 is not too far away now. How sad.

Originally posted by CK_OK
reply to post by cbianchi513

 

Just understand that your government cares first and foremost for protecting itself.

Thanks for telling the truth, I'd rather hear it like it is than be lied to.

We get enough of that from the politicians.

What he is saying is true, and again why I say in the mix up in the
cities, they will grab everyone and haul them off victim and
perp alike and you will be dumped in the HR 645 camps.

They do not have time to play ppls court, nor do they want to,
most only care about their own backside and their families.

This guy says he is here to defend us, don't buy that, for him
its a job, like a lot of ppl these days they are little more than Mercs.

Guns for hire, that play "let the bodies hit the floor" as they roll
into Iraqi cities.

Don't get me wrong, some really believe the founding fathers
and really do care about Americans, but it is not one that
thought they were playing Halo in Iraq.

They will be busy with the insanity in the cities, and when you hear
it all go down you can sit on the edge of the woods or go deep in
where no roads go and where no helo's can land.

Scout your areas prior with SAT recon via google earth, etc.

Setup some caches, know the terrain, don't break the law unless
it is that or die.

If it is one way in-out, close that path to all but foot traffic.

Have a hand crank radio, I don't recommend any cells or xmitters
as they will triangulate them.

If you are in the open at night, FLIR will tag you from the sky,
AC-130 or predators that already patrol in the US will light you up.

Smoke from a camp fire will give you away as well.

Leave no trace, walk the rocks and streams if you gotta move.

Learn to make a ghillie based on your flora and fauna of your area.

If you start shooting realize they will call in air support or just
pop a few mortars your way.

The have gunfire detection systems going into most major cities.

Gunfire detection systems

All the ppl that thought TIA was stopped were fooled, it was just
brought in via back channels through local law enforcement.

Total Information Awareness - Love that all seeing eye emblem !

The ground troops deadliest tool is who they can call on the COM gear.

Don't be real surprised if it is UN or NATO troops coming for you,
and or mix of many forces.

Good Luck to you all !

[edit on 29-7-2009 by Ex_MislTech]

First it is illegal for any soldier to just fire upon unarmed citizens according to the geneva convention, no matter what country they happen to be in.

Second, you need to provide a scenario.

For example:

If U.S. troops were deployed in D.C. (against the constitution) to protect the capitol against armed "revolutionaries" that already have proven they will use deadly force to accomplish heir goal then yes, I would follow my orders if they fired on our position.

If they were unarmed and were throwing bottles, rocks, or anything of that nature I would never fire. That would be against the law, and highly immoral.

So, either you die for being in the way of the revolution as they fire their weapons or you do what ytou are trained to do and eliminate the threat in front of you.

Or, if you choose to disobey orders and not proceed to go where you are told, you face disobeying a lawful order, and/or desertion and could get along time in prison.

Which would you choose?

Also, these situations have already come to pass before. Boston Massacre coming to mind, but I know there are others. Especially when it came to the civil rights revolution and the post civil war uprisings in the south.

Gusan, you said ;
How come you americans are so fascinated by your constitution? You really think it gives your army the right to massacre and dominate the world around you or even on homeground? You kill a man, a woman a child and feel great cause you are told you are defending the constitution?

No Gusan, the fact that our US troops swear allegiance to the Constitution has nothing to do with the reality of our imperial wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The attrocities committed by our forces have all been UNconstitutional. We Americans prize our Constitution because we feel it the greatest social compact ever written. America's problems are mostly due to unconstitutional activites carried out by our government who uses the flimsy excuse of "spreading democracy" to carry out our wars of aggression.

Just as the bible has been used as an excuse to burn and torture people so has our most sacred document been used as a cover. Had the American government stayed within constitutional bounds we would NOT be occupying sovereign nations nor would we be experiencing our current financial crisis.

Take the time to read our Constitution, it may be the singular most remarkable document ever written by man. Though I am not currrent military I will swear by it and give my life to defend the ideals of liberty which it embodies. If that makes me a lunatic so be it.

Originally posted by CK_OK
reply to post by cbianchi513

 

This is getting really old.

You're telling ME!

First, rounding people up is not something I support. It happens in war, and civil unrest IS WAR folks. Plain and simple. Natural disasters ARE WAR. It is called martial law. Once invoked, your rights and mine are out the freakin window. I did not write the damn policy but if ordered to implement it... well USMC-- U Signed the Mother F Contract! Now will I mow down innocent civilians? No. Will I return fire? Yes, and at that point you are no longer innocent. So all of the chest thumpers who spout what they do and don't believe have no input once the SHTF. It is either do as your told in a martial state, or be subjugated. Is it right? Hell no! Do you think I like it? No. But if I were ordered into a riot and came under attack, I would level your self-righteous collective asses or die in the process as was reminded to me by the Billy Bad A$$es in the forum.

This paragraph is exactly the stuff I'm worried about. I've been away from active duty for some time, but I would like to assure all the readers that are NOT military, or vets, that this young man's NCO's are likely to feel the opposite of what this young (obviously) enlisted man states. Two words for you, young Marine: DOMARI NOLO. It's the battle cry of the first revolution against tyranny, and very pertinent today. Quite simply, you, and your active duty brothers are FAR outnumbered by your veteran brothers. In many ways, we are just as prepared and well armed as you.

Gut check time: The men who have gone before you, the men that probably trained you, know the score. They are men like me. Once a Marine, ALWAYS a Marine.

In my mid 30's now, I am in many ways, including physically, a more effective warrior than I was in my active duty days. I never stopped being a Marine, I just stopped getting paid to do the dirty work for the bankers.

Think carefully about what I just said, young Marine, lest an "old salt" like me that has actually been there, done that, is familiar with my home terrain, and has stayed sharp and proficient someday have to take you to school.

Everyone keeps mentioning oaths. Does "all enemies foreign and DOMESTIC" ring a bell? It isn't in there for show.

It almost sounds like you're beginning to wake up when you say things like the above.

I am done with this thread so fire away. Just understand that your government cares first and foremost for protecting itself. If I and the rest of the military see this, then unless you attack us, you probably won't see the conflict you are predicting.

The situation will dictate the response.

Don't worry, WE won't be the aggressors... Just don't try to force the issue on WE, the PEOPLE. Learn from history, and the lessons it has taught us, or be doomed to repeat them. I'll give you a starting point: 19APR1775, Lexington, Mass.

Semper Fi brother!
Dismissed.