CALLING ALL MILITARY! Former and current!

There has been light discussion on many boards lately on a very disturbing subject.
I know that there are a lot of people on this site who are very anti military and anti war, and thats fine.

I have run across some disturbing posts though, from people who seem to think that I am in the minority in thinking, that if SHTF our American military brothers and sisters in arms will stand beside its people, and turn on its handlers.

There seems to be a prevailing theory that people in the military are mindless idiots, or zombied out killers , who will follow any orders given to them regardless of what it is.

I try not to get heated about this subject, because I myself am former military,and its been my experience that as a code of ethics you REFUSE any order that violates that.

I also know that an officers oath in the military is to protect and obey the CONSTITUTION over anything the POTUS might hand down.

I know I might have missed a lot here,and left some things out.

So here it is: USAF, USMC, NAVY, Coast Guard, US ARMY, all reservists , all vets and current military, WOULD YOU if ordered by the United States government, turn on your brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers and friends...on your COUNTRY , If the order was given to do so? Or would you fight back against TPTB, to protect our sovereignty and people from tyranny?

Would you willingly round up people say, who wouldnt take a flu vaccine, and assist local police in arresting said people?

If the people rose up against the government, would you stand beside us and help us restore our freedoms? The freedoms we were sworn to protect when we took our oath? Or would you help the government quell the uprising?

I look forward to the answers.

Also to the anti military crowed out there, were trying to get honest opinions please, try not to flame on this thread, and derail it........debate is great, wreaking havoc is not!

Im really looking forward to some of the replies on this subject. Im not in the military but a few of my friends are, and I know that they wouldnt consider firing on other Australians.

People just assume the military is an organisation run by mindless zombies who cant think for themselves, when they are a group of individuals with different thoughts and beliefs

Under the UCMJ, it is clear that if I consider what is said to be a lawful order, still illegal under the law, I do not have to obey it.....The true danger is what would be done to convince the members of the military that the common man is a major risk.....It appears to have already started....

I have family and friends in the Army, and I haven't talked to them in a while. I can't say either way that they would or wouldn't turn on us if ordered too. And some of these people I have been close to all my life. I'm also very curious to hear what you all have to say. I support my troops when they are protecting our freedoms and fighting to keep us safe, but I won't support them if they turn on us. Family/friends included. I hope all of this talk about soldiers turning on us is just a bunch nonsense.

[edit on 27-7-2009 by Ventessa]

reply to post by ManBehindTheMask



No. The UCMJ clearly states that orders like that are wrong.

USAMMA

I know what the answer is from the Vietnam era vets to the first Gulf war vets who I grew up with with out asking they have stated in few words by Their dismay and disgust at the direction the country is heading .

I want to hear what the current military men and women have to say . I really want to know . I am really curious if the answer will change on the generational gaps . If the newer recruits are trained differently .

Current military men and women put your 2 cents in .

reply to post by habu71


This is true, but being former military myself, you realize that other than youre uniform you were the common man, Citizen first, military second.

And you are right about the UCMJ most people that arent in the military do NOT realize this, they think that you HAVE to do what you are told regardless. They also believe we cant think on our own, WRONG!

your damn right i would stand up against a tyranical government by all means necisary. and im glad to know that id have my brothers in arms as i have personaly worked with damn near all of you guys and know that besides our tissy fits over who's more effecient lol most of the USMC and SEALS ive worked with have been great and all about the above....im not answering for all other military though so dont take what im saying out of context...and i also believe that i wrote a simular thread here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

p.s. sorry for spelling sailor wrong as i was in a hurry....

S + F btw OP

I guess it is the case with all and any Sections of society You will have the mindless sycophantic zombies and then you will have the true Guardians and real Protectorate and this is more evidently scene in the roles people play as Peace Officers as I myself was in a Paramilitary organisation but now just in a civilian one. So I dare say when literally TSHF there is going to be lines drawn in the sand etc





[edit on 27-7-2009 by Epsillion70]

i think a lot of this is going to weigh on the person him or herself.
humans are humans and no mater what laws and formalities are put in place, people will always become susceptible to just being human.

i'd say the same person in one scenario can react one way in one situation and another in a whole different situation. so one might act for or against military law situation pending.

we're human.

(ex-military as well)

[edit on 7/27/2009 by zooplancton]

reply to post by ManBehindTheMask


I think you may have to worry more about the agencies that have already done our people.
Vetrans of the Nam and D. S. along with our returning Vets have been to abused IMO to turn on thier own.

The other thing is, riot control, anti-looting operations, peace keeping and similar actions are with in the legal realm of orders that would have to be obeyed.

If a mob attacked the soldiers under those conditions, they would be justified in defending themselves. A mob has no conscious and is more like a wild animal, there would likely be deaths and injuries as an 'organized' group defended themselves against an untrained mob.

Would the soldiers be at fault during those kind of operations? No.

The other side of the coin naturally is what becomes an illegal order?

If say in the course of breaking up a riot, a commander orders an all out assault using belt fed weapons tanks and so on. When lesser force will accomplish the same task; then it becomes an illegal order.

Now if the same mob had significant firepower and were giving the commander and troops sufficient cause to think their lives were in jeopardy, an all out attack in self defense is a legal order. However, once the threat was stopped, any further use of force would be criminal.

Now as for herding folks at gun point to line them up and shoot them, just for population control.... No, I really doubt any of our troops would willingly join in. The sane ones anyway. There are always some nut jobs who would do it if they could get away with it.

Basically as long as the mission is peace keeping and so on, and their lives are not threatened, I don't think any of our troops would need to fire their guns. But there is always the likelihood of some dolt with a gun 'starting something' on either side.

M.











[edit on 27-7-2009 by Moshpet]

The Enemy is within, 911 is all you need to investigate to reach that conclusion. the states are well aware of the people. and Texas is fixing to get a mass migration to Texas the Country. and California could very well end up a bankrupt country as well. too bad Florida was Bushed.. so, they fixed something ... but what..?

Oh, on a slightly off center note... I dont think they want living humans.. me think it all geared to a meat packing operation.

[edit on 27-7-2009 by BornPatriot]

Ex-military here, from the Great War of '91...

First, before I answer your question, let me state that it is easier for an army to round up people who do not speak your language or share your customs, than to do it to people who do share everything with you.

However, if push came to shove, if a civilian militia were to cause riots or open fire, then of course the military would go about on instinct, survival mode... I do not believe that our forces would go about treating US citizens as terrorists unless initially provoked.

Any minutemen out there reading this, keep that in mind. We (militia) should not instigate battle, nor should we seek it... fighting is, and always should be, the last resort. The armed forces have better / fresher training, better weapons, and better technology.

If the civilian populace were to go about a passive resistance, then I feel that the troops will be persuaded; but again, if fired upon, then they have every right to protect themselves as do we. And, let me restate... it is easier for an army to round up people who do not speak your language or share your customs, than to do it to people who do share everything with you.

...

Hope that answers your question.

...

And, as a side note, I never took the Oath when I was at MEPS. Oh, I was there, surrounded by everyone pledging away. I rose my hand, but I would not pledge myself fully to the United States as required. Don't fully know why, but I will not bow before any man, god, or nation.

I will defend my home, protect my family and neighbors, and will always do what I feel to be right. I don't need to take an oath to protect a piece of paper that can be altered... but I will do whatever it takes to make sure those whom I love and care about are safe.

for any military or law enforcement past or present who is not aware of this movement, i just wanted to add this link as i think it is very pertenent to the discussion.
oath keepers

reply to post by The Soothsayer


I absolutely agree, of course if people started firing on our military you fire back, that happens anywhere. I guess my question is more to the point of, if the American people were rising up against the government because of tyranny in DC, and revolt against it was at hand.......do you think the Military would support the people of the united states, or continue to protect the politicians and government officials that brought it about?

You know as well as i do , that if the American people started to rise up, and defy the government out of discontent, much like what happened in Iran, would we military and former military JOIN the coupe , or do you think they would pull what the military force in Iran did, and turn on its people?

I guess thats more along the lines im referring to, I hope this makes it clear as mud! lol

Well let me give you SOME relief when I say that I am not military, I don't know anyone in the military, I don't agree with this war, I loathe the gov't, and that I DO NOT believe that the bulk of the military will fight against us.

The only problem I foresee is the government giving a seemingly justified excuse to exert martial law over Americans that many in the military will have trouble deciding if it's the right thing to do or not. It happened, to an extent in New Orleans. The Guard was disarming citizens in the name of civil safety. But I do believe if it had gone further, they would have realized what was going on.

I do believe the military will defend the constitution to the death. I really, really do. I would too. But when the government is so incredibly cunning at blurring the lines that divide lawfulness and lawlessness, I can foresee troops really having a hard time deciding if it's the right thing to do. And because of their loyalty and training they may err on the side of caution and do what they are told.

Which is understandable, but not beneficial to the rest of us. I just think there is a line the troops will not cross, but given the right circumstances they will give the high hard one to the gov't.

Where that line is, I have no clue. Do you know where your line is, OP? I think an obvious line is to gather up citizens and shoot them on command. I don't believe the military would follow orders like that. But anything other than that? Who knows? The gov't just has to create a situation that makes it seem like the citizens are the enemy and must be controlled for their own good. Where's the line when it comes to that?

If there really is a "plan" in the works to enact martial law on America, I wouldn't be surprised to see exercises that test how far the military will go against the citizens. We've already seen a few here and there. Hurricane Katrina for one.

We already know that they are being trained on American soil to arrest citizens and that the signs of disobedience include stating that you have constitutional rights. This is one clue I think we have that leads to the conclusion that they are planning something and conditioning troops to obey orders and paint patriots as the bad guy when they go around complaining about their rights.

Honestly, it's the police force I worry about more than the military. Much more. If that makes you feel better.

reply to post by rubbertramp


Thank you so much for that link! We appreciate that.

I just want to point out that im not advocating a mass violent uprising, im simply asking out of curiosity.

There seems to be some huge discontent with the military (there always is) and I just want people to know that those of us who serve and have served arent the brainwashed zombies they think we are. That we still serve our homeland and its people, that they are the main priority, NOT a man in a suit giving us orders.

I want as many people as possible to comment on this thread, give your opinions, even if you arent military you are welcome to do so.

I just want people here on ATS to see that we stand behind our fellow Americans, I want to try and dispel some of the fear that our nations protectors will turn on them in their time of need.

reply to post by ManBehindTheMask


Hmm... perhaps I was going with a scenario where the military came door-to-door. This is totally different than yours!

I really hope I don't seem like I am over simplifying things here, but the way I would want to see things would be akin to the movie V for Vendetta, where the army is poised as the civilians match forward.

For me, that was a very moving scene. Hell, very moving movie! But that one scene stands out the most.

Our troops know what is happening, what is going on. Sure, there will be a few gung ho soldiers who would just love to open fire, but I think, as a whole, our forces will stand down.

They know what is right.

AND, as they are a civilian force, with civilian members and civilian volunteers, surely they realize that We The People hold the power, and that they fight for us, to protect us.



"the people should not fear their government, but the government should fear its people"

[edit: double post]

[edit on 2009/7/27 by The Soothsayer]