CALLING ALL MILITARY! Former and current!

Originally posted by skeetontheconspiracy
DHS reporting in here.
Personally, I would never turn my gun on a civilian, unless there is evidence pointing out they are terrorists, armed, and my life is in danger.
The question I lose sleep over though is; when does it stop being terrorism against America and become patriotism for America?
Under today's laws, the patriots during the revolutionary war would be deemed terrorists.
I hope I never get that order.

 

Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

 

In my opinion, a terrorist is a foreigner (non-citizen) whose sole intent is to kill AS MANY US CITIZENS AS POSSIBLE whether in uniform or not. A patriot on the other hand, is a concerned citizen of the US whose sole intent is the preservation of our Constitutional liberties at whatever the cost. I hope you never get that order, either.

Again, just my opinion.

so you are saygin that if you go over , as the military, to forein countires and kill complete strangers becasue you are told to do so, that if things get bad back home, you will not kill complete strangers because someone tells you to do so, becasue they are in Ameirca and not the middle east?
sure, sounds reasonable to me.

I'm former Army and I would say unequivocally that I would never take up arms against U.S. citizens by order of the government. Having said that, I further do not believe the scenario will play out in a way in which our brothers and sisters in the military would be asked to take up arms against the citizens of U.S. nor would they be given the chance to protect them. I believe it is much more likely that a "U.N. Peacekeeping" force or forces from other countries would be brought in to act on behalf of the U.N. at the request of our government. This wouldn't be a monumental task since 65% of our forces are already deployed and an additional 15% deployment could be ordered at a stroke of a pen without the U.S. population understanding what was taking place. Reports are that 30,000-80,000 foreign troops already perform maneuvers within our borders with additional foreign troops in Mexico and Canada the number is in excess of 1 million. I much more fear that our brothers and sisters in our armed forces won't be here to help protect us!

Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by shug7272

 

shug, it's not our military you should fear. They have officers and NCO's in the chain of command.

I was former military, former SF, and if anyone is to be feared, it those who have no officers or NCO's to settle things down. I won't have a commander, nor a sergeant to direct my actions.

And worse than me will be the predators. Those without any history of discipline, without any sense of right and wrong, without any sense of limitations.

The military is the least of my concerns, and should be the least of concerns of any American.

I dont fear the military. If, and thats a big if, a rogue element tried to take over the gov they would be our only shot. My post was not a bash on the military. Not at all, nor the soldiers, my father is a disabled vet. He is disabled directly from the Vietnam war. He went back on his own. My post was just my outlook. If it came down to it, yup some soldiers would disobey. The majority would not. People like power and you give them power over anyone they will take it.

Like I said, look through history. Every dictator has used an army of normal people. Just like you and me, maybe vilified from our cultural stand point but the same normal moms and dads. They never seem to have a shortage....

Originally posted by Epsillion70
So I dare say when literally TSHF there is going to be lines drawn in the sand etc

Yeah, there could be situations where nobody outside of your humvee is a good guy.

On a thread recently where I asked military-related questions, I noticed several military people with an ' us against them ' attitude towards civilians. These posters weren't suggesting violence towards US civilians, but obviously didn't have too much respect...

That's an ominous thing, no ?



[edit on 27-7-2009 by Epsillion70]

[edit on 28-7-2009 by Skelkie3]

Originally posted by Moshpet
The other thing is, riot control, anti-looting operations, peace keeping and similar actions are with in the legal realm of orders that would have to be obeyed.

If a mob attacked the soldiers under those conditions, they would be justified in defending themselves. A mob has no conscious and is more like a wild animal, there would likely be deaths and injuries as an 'organized' group defended themselves against an untrained mob.

Would the soldiers be at fault during those kind of operations? No.

The other side of the coin naturally is what becomes an illegal order?

If say in the course of breaking up a riot, a commander orders an all out assault using belt fed weapons tanks and so on. When lesser force will accomplish the same task; then it becomes an illegal order.

Now if the same mob had significant firepower and were giving the commander and troops sufficient cause to think their lives were in jeopardy, an all out attack in self defense is a legal order. However, once the threat was stopped, any further use of force would be criminal.

Now as for herding folks at gun point to line them up and shoot them, just for population control.... No, I really doubt any of our troops would willingly join in. The sane ones anyway. There are always some nut jobs who would do it if they could get away with it.

Basically as long as the mission is peace keeping and so on, and their lives are not threatened, I don't think any of our troops would need to fire their guns. But there is always the likelihood of some dolt with a gun 'starting something' on either side.

M.











[edit on 27-7-2009 by Moshpet]

Personally, as a non-current military man who is about as prepared for violent scenarios as anybody... let me say that without a foreign invasion involved ... you'd better watch your ass and your back while patrolling American streets.
No offence, just watch it close.

Originally posted by ManBehindTheMask
There has been light discussion on many boards lately on a very disturbing subject.
I know that there are a lot of people on this site who are very anti military and anti war, and thats fine.

I have run across some disturbing posts though, from people who seem to think that I am in the minority in thinking, that if SHTF our American military brothers and sisters in arms will stand beside its people, and turn on its handlers.

There seems to be a prevailing theory that people in the military are mindless idiots, or zombied out killers , who will follow any orders given to them regardless of what it is.

I try not to get heated about this subject, because I myself am former military,and its been my experience that as a code of ethics you REFUSE any order that violates that.

I also know that an officers oath in the military is to protect and obey the CONSTITUTION over anything the POTUS might hand down.

I know I might have missed a lot here,and left some things out.

So here it is: USAF, USMC, NAVY, Coast Guard, US ARMY, all reservists , all vets and current military, WOULD YOU if ordered by the United States government, turn on your brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers and friends...on your COUNTRY , If the order was given to do so? Or would you fight back against TPTB, to protect our sovereignty and people from tyranny?

Would you willingly round up people say, who wouldnt take a flu vaccine, and assist local police in arresting said people?

If the people rose up against the government, would you stand beside us and help us restore our freedoms? The freedoms we were sworn to protect when we took our oath? Or would you help the government quell the uprising?

I look forward to the answers.

Also to the anti military crowed out there, were trying to get honest opinions please, try not to flame on this thread, and derail it........debate is great, wreaking havoc is not!

As a retired army ranger of a long 30 year service... and also a member of the large Idaho free milita that has kept itself quitet for a good long time... yea, we would stand and fight tyranny and any and all that go against the constitution....

many people think or seem to think that all we as civilians out here have only bolt action rifles and shotguns.... all i am gonna say is..... wanna bet

Guys, honest question, but don't you think TPTB know that? Don't you think they already have their think-tanks running sit-ops? They know we aren't going to go "Kent-State" on the populace.

What does concern me is the scenarios that they have developed where we might.

-trust, but verify. . . -

reply to post by ManBehindTheMask





Things will soon heat up before 2010. We havent seen anything yet.

I cant imagine anyone being anti-Military, (as far as our troops go). Where is the patriotism? The Military must follow orders from high ranking officials.

I understand the idea about being ati-war; although it takes our brave troops to protect our Freedom, as a nation.

I dont like the US being the world police force and some wars are unjustified. It's not the Military troops that our the probem.

I'm a little upset France will never help. It sometimes boils down to oil or fical interests. We let the rape and pilage continue in developing nations, that dont have a resouce to offer that's a shame.

It's time the rest of the world pitches in.

I hope when SHTF I'll have a few ex-military guys nearby!

I hope I didnt miss the point.

Knowing as a fact that our political leaders were responsible for 911, the constitution was suspended................

Originally posted by ManBehindTheMask


So here it is: USAF, USMC, NAVY, Coast Guard, US ARMY, all reservists , all vets and current military, WOULD YOU if ordered by the United States government, turn on your brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers and friends...on your COUNTRY , If the order was given to do so? Or would you fight back against TPTB, to protect our sovereignty and people from tyranny?

This question was quite literally asked 148 Years Ago, and look at what happened. Know History, and Learn from it, and you will be a wise person indeed.

My guess (as a person who experienced the draft a long time ago) is that when it comes to it 'soldiers' will do what is ordered.

Look, for example, at the 'Dutchbat in Yugoslavia' in the 90's, see this video:
www.youtube.com...

The Dutchbat (dutch soldiers responsible for a UN safe-area in Srebrenica) wanted to help a population that was being threatened with genocide...but 'the soldiers followed orders which as a result ended up in the killing of nearly 8.000 innocent muslim man'.

The soldiers of Dutchbat all feel terribly quilty and all...but they didn't do anything when needed! I believe they now even got medals?!

So...I just cannot believe 'a soldier' will go against his superior when he or she thinks that his superior is wrong. And...when this happens he or she will be thrown in jail by it's fellow soldiers who still do follow orders.

With as a consequence; after seeing three of your mates thrown in jail...you just shut up and follow orders. Correct me if I am wrong please...

Standing against orders from superiors only works when a group of soldiers refuses to follow orders...one soldier, or two for that matter, will not get anywhere....just jail.


Also it depends on what your ideology is of course. If you are a radical indoctrinated fundamentalist of some kind...you swallow everything what is ordered by your 'superiors'...because you are 'convinced' this is the only or the best way to deal with the situation.

So a blurred sense of reality also causes soldiers to just do what their told.

i hear what all of you are saying. Having never served and have no concrete plans to, I do not know which way to to think on this. I do and always thank you for your service. I know many current, former, and future soldiers and airmen and women but they will always be in my highest regard.

Anyway, My thought on this is this. You say that the military will not follow orders against the home front. While i hope you are right, i have to say that a military is a military and i am sure servicemen around the world have thought and said the same thing in the past until a coup or other crap hits the fan and most fall right back into their ranks. People are people and it is not unexpected that orders will be followed.

once again, i hope i am wrong but i have seen and read of too many coups and home invasions to think otherwise. I mean, come on, caesar did it

What with all the tea parties and talk of revolution and inquiring about our militaries' willingness to fire upon family and US Citizens...

I thought adding this link might be an appropriate reminder of our roots.

The Patriot (2000) Mel Gibson

The wife and I just watched it last night and she had to cover her eyes during some parts, since the bluddy parts are definately R rated.

She's a 'powder puff Disney chick'; I'd challenge any 'Progressive' to watch it.

Consider that it's loosely based (a blending) of a number of Patriots' stories and the end battle is based , in part, on the Battle of Cowpens.

You get the jist of what happened then and maybe can relate to it... Like, the British burning someones house down (similar to home foreclosures) killing the innocent residents (kinda like Obamacare to be.)

All in all, very contemporary.

Worth another viewing if you've seen it already.

Either way, hot buttered popcorn.

Originally posted by OzWeatherman
Im really looking forward to some of the replies on this subject. Im not in the military but a few of my friends are, and I know that they wouldnt consider firing on other Australians.

People just assume the military is an organisation run by mindless zombies who cant think for themselves, when they are a group of individuals with different thoughts and beliefs

People who just assume the military is an organization run by mindless zombies who cant think for themselves, are usually leftist, mindless zombies who cant think for themselves.

Interesting questions OP, I've had a quick browse through the replies and I have to say that all of the replies from current/serving military are flawed in that they are speaking of personal, individual points of view. The military is not made up of individuals, it acts as a single entity. While its okay to say " I would never open fire on my own people" the truth is you would not know what you would do until you were faced with the reality of a situation.
Having served with the British military for a number of years I've seen both my own countrymen and the Americans do some pretty terrible things. 91' pretty much finished off any childhood dreams I had of serving in just and noble causes. Much soul searching and digging around history has brought me to the conclusion there is no just or noble cause. When the jackboots come to my door I'll tilt my head and let them put an end to all. I'll not get any more blood on my hands whether it be innocent or guilty. Taking life is wrong, let them be the sinners.
The last point I'd like to make is that when the situation is right and the time has come the majority of the worlds military, irrespective of their country, will do whats expected of them, that's what they are trained to do. The inner search for the rights and wrongs goes on after and when its too late to change whats done in the heat of battle.

We (ex-military, regular citizen Janes and Joes) need to remember – NO rioting, keep to peaceful protests. When the time comes, ask the military or police on the other side of the barricade to “please, help us.” Don't give them a reason to lash out at us.

The military and police need to remember - when those that hold the puppet strings are done with them and the service they provided, the military and police members will be placed within the FEMA fence along with the rest of us.

Without the military and police sheep dogs, there is no way to corral the sheep.

All we want is our country back!

According to the constitution, the declaration, etc., we're supposed to overthrow our own government, should we find that it is taking away our freedoms. I for one, would protect that. That means protecting the people, not the government. It is the core reason for supporting the right to bear arms by the people. Any government who has taken away the guns from the people has the green light to keeping them under any oppression they wish. It is evident in too many countries today. If you don't like the fact that people can own guns, then that's OK, but remember, even in the U.S., there are power hungry and totally dishonest people in positions that could wreak havoc on our freedoms should the people be disarmed. The gun violence today isn't much more than what it has been in the past, if at all. The coverage of it has increased exponentially, which is the difference. My advice: Keep a 45 in the house. When thieves and such know you're packing, they generally don't want to mess with you. It is the same with deterring an oppressive government.

reply to post by ManBehindTheMask


I understand not 100% of all military are idiots. Still, the US army has invaded many many countries, killed countless innosent people all over the wolrd all over the history. Vietnam, Korea Irak, all South america and so on. Sure, individuals are made to believe they are doing this for "liberty" and other brainwash doctrins..you guys still believed in it..your military still untill this very day kills to make some very powerfull people more powerfull, very rich people more rich and so on. The only reason to call any population for brother or sister is a line drawn on a paper. Any Iraki citizent is still my brother and sister no matter where the line is drawn..i would rather die before i kill in name of "freedom".

So my question is; why should you not follow orders this time? It still would be for "liberty" "freedom" and all that crap..and you would still see the same brainwash maschinery doing its job on msm and you would buy it with a smile on your face.
Some of you would not, those are the real heroes...but not so many though.

Originally posted by SOXMIS
Interesting questions OP, I've had a quick browse through the replies and I have to say that all of the replies from current/serving military are flawed in that they are speaking of personal, individual points of view. The military is not made up of individuals, it acts as a single entity. While its okay to say " I would never open fire on my own people" the truth is you would not know what you would do until you were faced with the reality of a situation.
Having served with the British military for a number of years I've seen both my own countrymen and the Americans do some pretty terrible things. 91' pretty much finished off any childhood dreams I had of serving in just and noble causes. Much soul searching and digging around history has brought me to the conclusion there is no just or noble cause. When the jackboots come to my door I'll tilt my head and let them put an end to all. I'll not get any more blood on my hands whether it be innocent or guilty. Taking life is wrong, let them be the sinners.
The last point I'd like to make is that when the situation is right and the time has come the majority of the worlds military, irrespective of their country, will do whats expected of them, that's what they are trained to do. The inner search for the rights and wrongs goes on after and when its too late to change whats done in the heat of battle.

I totally agree. This is exactly what i think..only my english is too bad to express myself.
"THEY" will do aas they are expected!
This is not about the situation on the USa, this is a global matter.
I wish the USA population someday would comprehend that national proud is fundamental if a government needs you to pull the trigger.
"god bless america" yeah, like god will notice the ink on a paper..and bless only or more just that land inside those lines. LOL!
We are all the same, thats it.