Just wondering, why do so many of you seem to hate Jesus?

reply to post by Rintendo


[Pedophiles, jerks, violent people...more and more we are learning about genetics and just how much of this behavior is hard-wired into us from birth on.]


HI Rintendo ..I enjoy your posts by the way ...I like how you think ..and your level headed (or so it seems lol) ....

I dont think that genetics really plays as much a role as we all think ..sure some personality traits,tempers etc ..may ...but I think most is learned behaviour ....on top of the genetic traits ...
Some kids for instance ..no matter the genes ..turns out way different than the others ..but just going the opposite way of those who they watched (those who were supposed to have been examples) .......
I was one of those kids ...I watched all my adult examples so much that I even paid very close attention to the consequences of what happened to them from their actions ....(Drinking,pill popping,anger,violence etc) ...So much bad came their way from all of that ...that I just decided to learn from their mistakes and not have to go through what they did by copying it ...
It worked ..sure I went through the stages of a little drinking,pill popping etc ..but it did not take long from my life to go to crap from that lifestyle so I STOPPED dead on it quickly ....and did not have to go through it zillions of times to learn from it ..Now some things took me several times before I decided to just STOP and get out of .... (staying with the 2 women beater hubbys I had for so long ) but once I stopped putting myself through that crap ...my life changed drastic and for the better for sure ..I will never go through that ever again (I promised myself and will keep it )

Sorry I am getting off topic ...I will shut up now lol

[edit on 20-11-2008 by Simplynoone]

reply to post by VelmaLu


If God is omnipotent and knows the past and present, then He knows my ultimate destiny, doesn't He? God knows whether I will choose to follow Jesus and end up in Heaven, or be cast to Hell as an unbeliever.

I believe you mean a variant of "omniscient" in regards to the knowledge of thought and destiny. Not all translations of the various cannons imply this, and therefore is not theology for the larger percentage of "Christendom". This is more "Muslim" ideology; that the skein of your life is woven.

Moreover, if you research the origins of Hell as described in a Dante's inferno sense, again, I would argue that you would find much ambiguity as to what "Hell" is. There is this idea of Hades that looks very much like that of the Greeks and surrounding culture, and then a loose politico-theology driven definition of Hell that humans love to grasp onto. Those students of ancient languages would argue that there is no description of eternal burning for what amounts to 80 human years.

The "fires of Gehenna" ref from the Gospel accounts was a common Aramaic colloquialism based upon a common knowledge that Gehenna was the literal "garbage dump"...when read from originating language scripts it reads: keep this up and your life will go down the toilet.

I bring this up because you are arguing theology on a post about an individual and theology is always up for interpretation. Think of our own Constitution written not even three hundred years ago has a vast history of litigation for the pursuit of its interpretation.

Therefore, God creates souls for the express purpose of casting them into Hell so they will suffer all eternity. If God wanted to, He could only create souls that would worship Him. Rights?

That is your interpretation based upon conversations with people who, most likely, never did serious study of the Cannon.

Since God is omnipotent, He knows what every single person on this planet needs in order to believe in Jesus; He knows what Biblical contradictions must be solved, what information must be given -- yet God does not give that to everyone. Therefore, there are some people God does not want to believe in Jesus. Therefore, God withholds information from humans so that they will not accept Jesus and will be cast into hell to suffer for all eternity.

So please explain to me how you reconcile the above with "God doesn't want anyone to be lost"

She would have difficulty explaining it via your suppositions. Especially in light of the various "authors" of the Hebrew Bible and the "winner" or "winning movement" of the "Hillel" crowd defining God's intentions so differently.

Jesus did not speak in the theology of your supposition. His was much more simple, but harder to actually comply with. A life of kindness, servitude, and stifling of human instinct is what he purported. If he spoke of "Hell" please someone find it in the Gospels (caveat being the original texts, not a translation from a translation from a translation).

Yes, I realize I am being a smarty pants, but only to level the playing field. There is entirely too much assuming about what others think, believe, etc. There are over one billion Catholics, close to that in Protestants combined. I don't know how many atheists and agnostics, but I imagine they are large numbers.

We simply cannot assume someone's personal theology and then argue against it. Perhaps, we can ask what they believe first before creating a straw man. It saves so much time in the whole building of it only to tear it down.

Plus, we might learn to like each other a little bit better and I hope everyone can agree to that.

reply to post by Simplynoone


Sorry...I find genetics, human anthropology, human factors--all of that is so absolutely fascinating to me.

I know people hate the idea of genetics playing such a huge role, but I find it somewhat (as a scholar of the ancients) to be exciting. The ancients were huge observers of the human condition. Perhaps, their concepts of Fortuna or the Fates weaving the skein of your life is just...genetics?

I'm doing it again, aren't I?

reply to post by VelmaLu

Dominicus, Since you claim to be "enlightened" then surely you could clear up some questions I have -- on your own, without researching it or using information from another source. I've read their answers, I'd like to hear from someone who claims to "know" God. Would you be interested?

Yeah thats fine, although it seems this thread had turned into theological discussions, but why not. I've already had my question answered, as to why it seems so many people hate Jesus.

Seems to be very few actually, and there seems to be people that are technically Christians and dont know it.

Also please keep in mind, "the Spiritual Enlightenment I clam, is an aspect that has various degrees and dynamics to it. When I was thrusted into those Divine realities, I thought it was the highest possible experience there is. Then as the years progressed, the Enlightenment went deeper and more intense and I was completely stripped of who I thought I really was, and was revealed who I really am, who everyone really is. It's a lifelong process.

But of course I dont mind, in fact, when both parties are decent and intelligent in their replies, I find these discussions rather fascinating as a source of soul food.

Thank you. The reason I asked is I would like to hear something that isn't regurgitated from someone's website, or quoting some other scholar. And perhaps you have some insight that is new.

I am assuming you accept the Bible as the Word of God, or at least Divinely inspired?

Could you, very briefly, summarize the Garden of Eden story? I mean, without looking it up, maybe in a paragraph or two?

reply to post by VelmaLu


I am assuming you accept the Bible as the Word of God, or at least Divinely inspired?

Oh dear...what a can of worms you are asking me to open! I believe that the Hebrew Bible is a collection of tribal stories to show the origins of a people and their relationship to a God, and historic tribal relationships. I believe it is their explanation for the history of the world. It is an ancient text and too old to really know much about it.

I believe that this Jesus guy lived two thousand years ago and that what he had to say was totally rocking. I think that he was hardcore enough to live and die by his beliefs and that not one in a hundred thousand would have gone through a Roman scourging willingly to keep the integrity of his words. I believe as such he owes my lifelong respect.

I have a...personal relationship with Jesus that I cannot explain to you, nor do I feel like I need to. However, I would say...loosely...that I feel that the Gospels, Jesus's teachings are a path to happiness and eternal joy given to us by G-d.

Not sure if that helps you understand me, but...

Could you, very briefly, summarize the Garden of Eden story? I mean, without looking it up, maybe in a paragraph or two?

Which account? First Genesis or Second?

Briefly, I believe Second Genesis is a metaphor for human sexuality. Prior to eating the fruit given to her by the snake, she and Adam both were at one with nature, innocent, and without care. They were children, essentially. After knowledge of their sexuality (apples and snakes were ancient fertility symbols) they were suddenly thrust into the world of adulthood and "work", children, etc.

This is what I believe today. I am beginning to be convinced (wince) in ancient astronauts and perhaps a more literal interpretation...hence my coming on to this website and reading gobs.

Actually, my questions were posed to the OP. And my other questions about God creating humans to suffer were posed to Grandma.

reply to post by VelmaLu


I am 100% convinced God creates certain people to suffer as much as possible. I am one of them.

Nonsense!Jesus is a myth,so,why care about it?
Bolleke

Originally posted by Circle
When people say they hate Jesus maybe its because they see him the way they want to see him and not the way God sees him. I know my own son better than you can ever know - maybe thats the way God does too. Maybe Peter got to see Jesus through the Father's eyes. What do you think?

[edit on 20-11-2008 by Circle]

What I think is "where are these people that hate Jesus?".

It's a strawman that Christians are waving about left, right and centre, but where's the hate for Jesus here? On this board?

Many people have gone at lengths to politely explain that they don't "hate" Jesus at all all. The problem lies with some Christians. It's not a difficult point to take on board and yet so many of them seem unable to accept it.

Originally posted by Rintendo
reply to post by MarrsAttax

 

I think you're mistaking what I am saying, and what I am saying is that man is more than "ideals" he is a being physically hard-wired to act and react in certain ways.

I don't disagree that man has hard-wired instincts. However, I would argue that he also has cooperative instincts as well as the more base ones. Toddlers quickly learn the value in sharing through experience. They learn through experience that positive results come when they cooperate (I saw this on a Robert Winston documentary, I'll try and find a link). They don't have to be taught this behaviour from an external source (eg religion).

Ideas are always the shield or cover of a$$holes hell bent on getting what they want at the expense of others. If not religion, then ideology, music, etc.

That's an extremely cynical view. I can't agree that all ideas are like that. For example, are aid workers in Afica simply trying to get what they want at expense of others? I think what you are trying to say is that religion isn't solely culpable. I think we can agree that religion isn't a bad thing in and of itself.

Do you honestly believe that Dick Cheney believes in his black little heart that Jesus is the Son of God?

I have no idea what goes on in Dick Cheney's heart, frankly it's not something I would want to look into! It's just possible that he does though. It's precisely that sense of certainty and moral superiority that religion can bring that means some people can justify almost any action if they believe they are doing it for a higher purpose. (nb I'm not saying all religious people do this only that it is still possible for people to perform heinous actions while believing themselves to be doing 'the Lord's work'.

How so? Maybe one could argue from an anthropological/physiological perspective that the human creature is simply incapable of denying basic instinct for very long and that Maslow was entirely correct about man. Perhaps in spite of wanting so badly to believe in a religion or idea, we are victims of chemistry and evolution and that the best we can do is just try to be good.

Man is actually very good at denying basic instinct. This is evidenced by the numerous civilisations throughout history and the fact we are the most (evolutionary) successful mammal on the planet. Ideas build temples, cure diseases, put men in space.

I've yet to hear a strong argument for religion being the root of all evil. I think this is yet another means for humans, ironically, to say: the devil made me do it! Like it's all religions fault that we're horrible instead of our own ineptitude. Religion didn't make me snark at you a few seconds ago. My rising endorphin levels did. Religion could have caused me to pause until they lowered again, but I didn't let it.

I agree totally. My position is that religion fulfils a function in that it encourages cohesion within a particular group, which allows the group to achieve things that would otherwise be impossible (religion isn't the only thing that does this). The achievements themselves may be morally questionable to outsiders or they may be praiseworthy. Seen as an anthropological phenomenon the literal truth of the religion is irrelevant, although obviouly it isn't for the people who believe the religion. I don't see a dichotomy between our base instincts and our 'higher selves'. For me they all stem from the same place - the human brain - and they all serve a purpose.

I'm open minded with regard to the supernatural, I just don't see it as a necessary basis for morality.

[edit on 21/11/2008 by MarrsAttax]

Edit: Couldn't find the link but this paper discusses the idea I was alluding to.

[edit on 21/11/2008 by MarrsAttax]

reply to post by VelmaLu

Thank you. The reason I asked is I would like to hear something that isn't regurgitated from someone's website, or quoting some other scholar. And perhaps you have some insight that is new. I am assuming you accept the Bible as the Word of God, or at least Divinely inspired? Could you, very briefly, summarize the Garden of Eden story? I mean, without looking it up, maybe in a paragraph or two?

I accept the Bible as: Divinely inspired, poetry, symbolism, prophecy, cryptic, and as a historical record by authors writing down what they saw. I don't necessarily agree w/ a few parts of it, particularly in the Old Testament, and I dont take it all "literally" as its not all literal ....but I have gotten enough from it to realize there is higher order of being, where God is experienced everyday.

W/ Garden of Eden I tend to huddle of to what Eastern Orthodoxy says about it. What they say is that in the Beginning we were all w/ God, and there was non-duality. We all knew God and were all one w/ God.

The idea sprung up for us to experience Non-duality, or separation from God. At that point, all the necessary mechanisms emerged for us to make this happen.

God already knew that this would happen, and in a sense is cool about it because the separation allows the soul to grasp a level of individualization at which point when we return to God, we Love and honor and cherish our "home" and our "Father" so much more after going through all the learning and separation here.

Its sort of like, you dont know what you really had til its gone.

Why Eastern Orthodoxy??? Well if you look at that version of Christianity, while there is an outer shell that's lost in "religion" of this branch, there is also an inner shell where enlightenment and Christian Mysticism is held as the highest form of being. Eventually you return to the oneness that we had in the Garden, while still here and still in the flesh.

That's what Jesus came to do, to show a path back to the oneness, the original state of being.

Westernized Christianity is also very "boxed" in as more of a religion, but there are scattered in this part of Christianity, a few good seeds who actually truly resemble Jesus, his love and his ways and aren't out there judging, and pointing, and screaming. Its more love and acceptance and these good seeds also many times get attacked by the "religiously indoctrined" section of Christianity.
__________________
To me its very simple. Looking at the world and history, who's claiming Spiritual enlightenment, things of God, and living in a philosophical high order of being that's different from the way people are in the world?

Worldly ways is; worry, hate, greed, lusts, a slave to the senses and needs of the flesh, fighting, arguing, killing, raping, suffeing, disease, death and on and on.

So if I see anyone living opposite of all those things that I know in my soul are wrong, something I felt even when I was an atheist, I will pay attention. Jesus on top of that did all these miracles and promised that if you follow in his footsteps you will also receive freedom from the flesh and this world and have Enlightenment.

So I took it upon myself to be sincere and genuine and walk the path. As a result, I was given Spiritual Enlightenment, and I wish everybody had it. I could be broke out on the street w/ no money, no food, and cold and still be happy and content because I have God in my life as a daily experience.

thats it in a nut shell, albeit a pretty big one.

reply to post by Rintendo


There is always some reason/excuse that people use to hate each other. The common denominator is people, not religion. People are just looking for an excuse. If not religion, then class. If not religion, then politics. If not religion, then sex. Tribal man fought with each other. No organized religion there.

I absolutely agree. Man will always fight, it is in our nature. But religion just gives people another excuse. And these excuses are what people use to justify what they do. To make things worse other people then agree with them and so if it is done in the name of religion, then to some, it is OK.

Like I said, I do not think people hate Jesus, just all the thisngs that followed. I think it is organised religion people hate and unfortunately the good carpenter is one of the main figure heads.

I can give you another reason why Jesus gets a bad rap:

The Bible states that Christians are 'imitators of Jesus in their thoughts and deeds'

With their thoughts and deeds, Christians have shown Jesus to be a lying, cheating, prejudiced, stealing, perverted SOB.

Nice going, guys.

And no, I am not bashing everyone. if you KNOW you arent one of these, then you *shouldn't* feel offended- just saddened for the ones that are.

[edit on 21-11-2008 by wylekat]

your right. everyone i know hates christ. why? he waz one of the greatest men that ever exsisted.

reply to post by dominicus


domincus:

Are you judging my faith? That I might not be "born again" and in tune with the spirit of the Living God? That is dangerous ground my friend.


Peace,
Grandma

reply to post by VelmaLu


VelmaLu:

Let me see if I can explain what I believe. Yes, God is all knowing in the sense that he knows us from the time we were in our mother's womb and growing strong, he knew us.

Now, after we are born, we come out into this big bad world. That Satan has a very strong hold of at the moment. Never mind that though, that will past and with Christ Satan is not match. Anyway, we have all kind of life experiences that happen to us as we grow. Some we can't escape and some we bring on ourselves. I think is is during these times of doubt God is reaching out to us though the Holy Spirit. Do we accept the offer of the rowboat in a angry sea? Our creator made us creature of free will. Why would he want us to come to him with love because we HAD to and not because we WANT to. It is still our choice.

During the OT times man just could not bridge the gap to reach God. Man kept failing and all the animal sacrifice that were made and with Moses having the Law, man still fell short. Hence, we have Jesus coming to bridge that gap to be the PERFECT blood sacrifice for all man for all time. But it was still up to us to accept the offering that Christ gave.

Peter said "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us NEW BIRTH into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an INHERITANCE that can never perish, spoil or fade - KEPT IN HEAVEN FOR YOU! He was CHOSEN before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for YOUR sake. Paul wrote in Romans: Therefore, since we have been justified through FAITH, we have PEACE with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through whom we have gained access by faith into this GRACE in which we now stand.

Does God know for sure which path we will take. No, I don't think he does. I believe that up until our very last breath that God is still reaching out in his mercy to save us through the work of the Holy Spirit. Only, God knows what our thoughts are right before we die.

We have been given a wonderful gift from our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. It is up to us if we accept the offer or not. We have our whole life to make that decision. But life is much more rewarding in so many ways when we do come to him with a humbled heart and a humbled spirit. I just can't explain the love and the song that my heart sings in his presence.

I know we will have sufferings that happen to us during our life. It is only natural that this would be so and being a Christian does not hinder hardships coming our way. But it does give me peace in my spirit to know that "This to shall pass!"

I hope I have answered your questions. If not please U2U! me.

Grace and peace to you through our Lord and savior Jesus Christ,
Grandma

reply to post by VelmaLu


VelmaLu:

Please forgive me. I am so sorry that I missed your questions about suffering. Was there something I could try and be of help? Please U2U! me or send me another post.

Peace to you,
Grandma

Grandma,

I really didn't want to engage in a testimony meeting.

My questions are:

a). Did God create everyone's soul?

b). Does God know everything?

A simple yes or no will do.

Originally posted by dominicus
reply to post by VelmaLu

 

Thank you. The reason I asked is I would like to hear something that isn't regurgitated from someone's website, or quoting some other scholar. And perhaps you have some insight that is new. I am assuming you accept the Bible as the Word of God, or at least Divinely inspired? Could you, very briefly, summarize the Garden of Eden story? I mean, without looking it up, maybe in a paragraph or two?

Why Eastern Orthodoxy??? Well if you look at that version of Christianity, while there is an outer shell that's lost in "religion" of this branch, there is also an inner shell where enlightenment and Christian Mysticism is held as the highest form of being. Eventually you return to the oneness that we had in the Garden, while still here and still in the flesh.

It would seem to me that you are more Gnostic in your beliefs than Pistic, is that correct? It seems that you do not feel that the Bible is inerrant, nor necessary for your beliefs.