Just wondering, why do so many of you seem to hate Jesus?

reply to post by moocowman


Dr Tabor has written some highly evocative dissertations on the subject. I lean towards a Jesus heavily influenced by Rome and Roman culture (hence his condemnation by other Jews and the particulars of his crucifixion) or at least an individual who was tired of the constant insurgency over Roman occupation. I believe that some of his stances were designed either to show the similarities in cultures or to make concessions. Some of my documentation is still under an NDA, and therefore my dissertation is only partially publishable, but the gist is that the seemingly malevolent ire towards a known "pacifist" by members of his own community, an ire which has led to extreme behavior between Christendom and Judaism for thousands of years, was actually not over a deification that came in the future from Athanasian origin, but the fact that he seemed like an "Uncle Tom" or "sympathizer".

This is such an OT post, but I have a lot of information on the subject and defended my dissertation with minimal edits. I'm kinda proud of it **punches self on the arm**

Still, wasn't my original post about the fact a historical Jesus existed and that mainstream scholars pretty much are all in accord? I don't believe that Dr Tabor has said otherwise either.

reply to post by crazyjames65


crazyjames65:

Thank you! It still brings tears to my eyes when I remember looking into his eyes and him reaching out for me and calling me "Daughter". It was beautiful. My daughter put the video on www.youtube.com/4kingston11 I hope it will give you a sense of peace.



Peace in Christ,
Grandma

reply to post by moocowman


My area is history and I am loathe to weigh in on theological debates, but it also says in Mark (chapter 9) that there some deep problems that his disciples may only cure through prayer and fasting, I believe.

Now, having witnessed fasts (I got maybe 3 days into one myself before my mind went completely crazy) but I have been told it is a mystical experience as the body shuts down non-vitals. Moreover, universities have done various studies on paranormal experiences related to fasts, and may some day uncover some "truth" if not "fact" to concur with this methodology. _javascript:icon('')

reply to post by Rintendo


Yes indeed dr tabor is quite adamant as to the probable reality of a character Yeshua claiming to be the messiah, however he's quite persuasive in denying the character to be God or even the son of god Yaweh.







[edit on 20-11-2008 by moocowman]

reply to post by Rintendo


Sorry to go slighlty off topic but your talk of fasts and such reminded me of something. I came across a site some time back where there was an ongoing study of sleep depravation from the paranormal angle. I believe it was at manchester uni but I'm buggered if I can remember, hear anything of that as i forgot to flag the site and would like to check it out again to see what occuring.

reply to post by Rintendo


yes Rintendo...you are correct, there is a '"theological" and "historical" Jesus. Jesus (or variants on His name) was a flesh and blood man who walked the Earth. I enjoyed reading your post...thanks.

When one studies history they become aware that the accounts of events and lives of people are questionable and not necessarily the truth. The author has "poetic license" and is therefore inclined to embellish and offer his own interpretation. Primary souce material is not necessarily always the truth either.

Part of the joy of history is dissecting the story and the possibilities for further investigation that unfold. It is never an open and shut case, and this is how events or people become myths, immortalised and idols.

This how I approach the Bible, and whilst I respect this written word as sacred to Christians, I am also aware that it has been manipulated and rewritten many times to cater to changing generations and agendas.

The Koran and Tolmud serve the same purpose.


I do not hate Jesus. I do not hate Christians. I do not hate Moslems. I do not hate Jews. I choose to follow no religion but respect the right of others.


take care all
res

reply to post by moocowman


But, again, weren't my replies regarding the historical Jesus? Theology and history are two different things. I am quite able to separate the two concepts.

However, to say that I am without "faith" would be wrong. I've had it, walked away from it, and then returned to it several times over. In some ways my scholarship has helped and hindered me. I remember a time when confronting my historical figure with my Catholic heritage I had quite an emotional struggle and actually discussed it with a Rabbi who was at the time teaching me Hebrew. He interjected that, perhaps, Jesus could be my savior with a "little s" instead of a big one. His advice got me "over the hump" so to speak and I was able to keep what I liked about Jesus--in fact, NOT believing he was God made what he said and did all the more remarkable and worthy of my admiration.

It wasn't until I was working with Hospice that my faith in the "supernatural" Jesus (I'm still stuck in the "iota") returned. Explaining what I saw and experienced would not enhance your life in anyway, therefore I will refrain. Suffice it to say I do believe and he has become my Savior with a big "S" although I am not Paulean in my beliefs (common Christian beliefs).

I will say this so as to not provide further ambiguity, I love Jesus. I try and live my life in accordance with what is attributed to him in Matthew, Luke, and John, and believe that if we all lived in service to the poor, the weak, the broken-hearted, and the infirm, that the world wouldn't be so terrible. Was he the first to say these things? No, but he said them in such a way as to pierce my spirit.

The key word here might be "seem" as it your perception of others to disdain Christ is introspective.
Even the bulk of Muslims I've met have no personal "hatred" towards Jesus. Perhaps the claims by some associating such animosity with Western society could be further interpreted as being indicative of the present-most state of Western modernity in which secularism, technology, and materialism have propelled society towards godlessness and hedonism.

reply to post by moocowman


Did you read the Johns Hopkins study on spirituality and psylocibin?

Originally posted by angel of lightangelo

Originally posted by PowerSlave
There is a ton of archeological evidence of places and people mentioned in the Bible. But even if bones were found that we could test DNA on, what is there to compare it to? I guess the unbelievers, will need Jesus to float down on their front lawn and offer them a miracle. Just like the Alien skeptics who need a spaceship to land on their front lawn.

There is plenty of archeological as well as real evidence of many of the people and places in many of the books on my shelves. I have one here that is full of real places and real people. It is by a man named Clive Barker. Perhaps you should read some of his books. By your logic, there is some scary crap out there. It is true, the books are full of real people and places.

I see your philosophy here but tell me what Clive Barker has discovered or his followers that was never discovered before? What archeological evidence has he unearthed and has any of his fiction proved that what he made up and never saw was actually discovered as true? I mean maybe in 1000 years time his real settings might be rediscovered in those Clive Barker books and people might be confused to suggest maybe those fictional characters were true. In contrast those characters like the Greek Gods are still seen as fiction or stories told of the Nephilin Gods of the Bible and the divide in truth and historical documentation is different in how the cultures kept the true stories from the fictional. Events kept the story burning of the coming messiah who was to be Jesus and so you would always add to the holy texts and historical events written by many different people which kept a consistant story through history. I know what you are saying and I guess like belief in those characters of the Bible you just have to go by faith and that is the main angle that it always was because if it was not then the road would be too easy.

reply to post by open_eyeballs


God did not keep my from getting very ill over 12 years ago. But, he was with me every minute I laid in my bed so sick I couldn't get a breath to breath.

I all most died this June, but God gave me another crack at getting it right.

I have lost the use of my right leg due to 3 staph infections almost lost my leg. He was there with me through all of that. Praise God! Now, yes, I am in a wheelchair for the rest of my life, but praise God I have a wheelchair (a power chair) and I still have my life. And yes, Praise God, He is still with me every minute of every day of my life. I love Him so. My heart sings with joy!


Peace in Christ,
Grandma

Originally posted by Rintendo
reply to post by moocowman

 

Did you read the Johns Hopkins study on spirituality and psylocibin?

No dude but now you mention it I will make a point of looking into it cheers, one thing , what is you view if any on the similaries between the jesusgod and the likes of mithras etc?

Sorry not to be totally focused as I'm trying to repair my bike

[edit on 20-11-2008 by moocowman]

reply to post by Grandma


The ancients believed that it was our enemies that made us who we are, not our friends. They looked at suffering as a test of character. I think that modern technology gives us this belief that we can be perfect, that life can be perfect, and that suffering is always a bad thing to be alleviated.

Would I want my child to suffer from Leukemia? No. I don't want to be misinterpreted, but I do want to put a thought out there. My thought is this: that some suffering exists to build bridges and unite people. I have seen people go beyond fear and apprehension to hold a child dying of AIDS. I have seen hardened people become soft and willing when confronted by someone who weeps.

We all die some day, the day and means we cannot choose, but we can choose how we meet it and what is taken from it.

If everyone was always cured of suffering and there was no death the planet would be overrun with people and the resources of the world would be gone.

The fact is I think we need to concentrate less on perfection, and less on what can be gained and more on building our character.

reply to post by moocowman


If I pray to Jesus, I am praying to Jesus. If I pray to God, I am praying to God. How would I know which one is answering? If I am praying and I am honestly asking for some money. If the next day I go out to buy a scrattie and I win 10 dollars. The staff people who sold me the winning ticket isn't the one who I prayed too, I prayed with my heart. If I prayed to Jesus, or God, I wait and the "answer-reply" will be shown-given to me. If I ask in pray to Jesus, or God, for help to allow me to have something to eat, Jesus, or God, will not personaly appear and remove the piece of fruit from the fruit tree and give it to me. And...You are saying in your post that Jesus is God? Yeah, I did read your post. I wonder why the world is what it is, when certain people-christians are to snobby and so full of ignorance.

reply to post by OldThinker


OldThinker:

I do believe that he believes in both and I do hope that he chooses wisely. I will pray so.

By the way, I love your posts!



God bless you,
Grandma

reply to post by moocowman


There is less documentation on Mithras, although it is older, than there is on Jesus. It was, however, de rigeur for awhile in the JS to discuss its relevance. The cross is similar, but it was also a symbol of slave rebellion for a time, as well. The death and rebirth was nothing new to Mithraism, either. The ancient world was flooded during this time with mystery religions all very similar in "texture".

What we have of Mithraism is almost entirely relegated to art. Allow me to pontificate...Julius Caesar is highly documented. We have Plutarch, Suetonius, his Gallic commentaries, as well as, art. If I were on a board listening to people speak of Mithraism I would ask what sources other than art and medieval sources do we have to prove that the commonalities are not closer to the cult of Isis?

Resurrection was very, very big then, so you can't say that the followers of Jesus borrowed from Mithraism when Mithraism borrowed from the Cult of Isis. You can't say that the "blood" was borrowed from Mithraism because that was also de rigeur to the ancients. The almost "stoic" world renouncing aspects that Christianity is likened to Mithraism, again, I would argue comes from the Romans.

I honestly believe a more logical case, without the leaps in logic (by stating that the writers of the Gospels borrowed from other religions you are making character judgments that may or may not be true--but ultimately we cannot make without having met them), ahem, sorry...a more logical way to look at it, a more logical scenario is this:

This left-leaning, Hillel school of thought Pharisee is looking around at all of the suffering in his home town. He is smart enough to see that Rome is not going anywhere. He is also smart enough to see that while they might be unwanted overlords they did bring some financial, technical, and holistic advantages, and thought...how do I bridge the gap? Much like the Iraqis that Fox News puts on to make us think that all of them want us there and that the insurgents are the minorities. Those Iraqis have nice things to say about the Americans, but are persecuted for saying it. I think Jesus quoted Julius Caesar and Cicero--not that quotes from Cicero and Caesar were applied to him later. I think he culled from the best of Roman philosophy to show that they were similar in thought to his own schoolings. I think this is more likely than that someone invented a guy, forged documents, disbursed those documents widely in an age where paper is incredibly expensive and wax tablets heavy, etc.

Sorry...rambling.

reply to post by dominicus


dominicus:

Love your story of the orange. I could feel the love.........feel the love


Peace in Christ,
Grandma

reply to post by gordonwest


Well dude, appreciate your honest response but to be honest it doesn't make that much sense to me.And why should it I was not raised a christian or born in a religious enviroment. I can respect your beliefs and at the moment you don't appear to be the type who would try to shove them down my childrens throats or dictate to us how we should live or lives.

I don't know why you would ask a question like this one. It seems to me and appears true that there are only two reasons people hate the thought of a GOD or Jesus...

#1. Someone claiming to be a follower of Jesus, Christians, give such bad examples that it turns people off. One could call this the "They don't know the real Jesus" group.
#2. They don't like the rules. This one is self explanatory If they followed Jesus they would have to change their lives drastically and follow HIS LAW and this is not acceptable to many who enjoy the thought of no GOD means no recompense for actions. One could call this group the "We prefer lawlessness" group.

I don't think any other answer doesn't fit under one of those 2 reasons when broken down. Remember Jesus said "why do you call me Lord when you do not do as I say?" and what he said was "Do as Moses told you to do." Moses of course gave us the 10 commandments.

reply to post by theindependentjournal


The man named Jesus of Nazareth was the most spiritually advanced and morally superior spirit to have incarnated on this Earth. His mission was to provide us with a living example of the level of love, goodness, and values that human beings can attain on this planet. Spiritists consider Jesus to be a model for all humankind and strive to follow Jesus' teachings. That is why many Spiritists call themselves Christians.

[edit on 20-11-2008 by IvanZana]