Just wondering, why do so many of you seem to hate Jesus?

Originally posted by Rintendo

So, while you can absolutely be a good person (as defined as having more good qualities than bad) without religion, it is still fair to say that you were instructed by your parents to be a good person and those instructions came from a Judeo Christian root in this society. In Eastern Societies it came from a Buddhist-Shinto root. What we consider "good" is in many cases anti-evolutionary for a bipedal predator 60,000 years ago.

So while we're out there bashing religion, or saying that people learned nothing from Christ, I interject to say that religion predated countries and those "laws" helped form society in ways beyond our capacity to always acknowledge.

You make a good point. My own upbringing was Christian and my outlook and morals have undeniably been shaped by that, I cannot deny it.

However, I would argue that fundamentally these morals are about co-existing. To say that our morals is anti-evolutionary may not be quite right. We may have started as a predator but what has contributed to our evolutionary success is our ability to work together towards common goals. In this sense you could view religion as an evolutionary adaptation that allowed humans to be filled with a common purpose. That some religions enforce a belief in a supernatural deity is largely as a result of our historical lack of understanding of how the world worked. I think it would still be possible to have a religion that taught morals and upheld cohesion in society without having any supernatural element.

reply to post by moocowman


Moocowman,

the marriage debate has been on my mind for some time now. It's all about defining marriage. What is marriage? Is it a business contract? Is it for the purpose of procreation? Is it about "love" only?

Some say that marriage was originally a business arrangement. That is partially true, but not entirely sound as there was and is marriage in tribal societies where no property is exchanged. To some tribal societies it was a means to grow and strengthen the tribe through the production then protection of children.

To the Romans, a marriage was a business contract between two families and easily terminated by the woman's father (the father owned the daughter and to their credit allowed her to keep her dowry in most cases), and yet it was still performed by a religious affiliate.

Until modern times there was no marriage ceremony NOT performed by a religious person. Therefore there was always the element of "spirituality" involved in this union.

Marriages could be dissolved in all cultures by a woman's inability to produce children, and therefore you might also state that historically marriage was for the purpose of children.

It was not until that "courtly love" movement of the medieval period that the notion of what marriage "ought" to be changed.

Now, we want to marry for love and according to some like the Dalai Lama this notion of romantic love is wrong-thinking in its placement of a lifelong comittment to a "feeling" instead of a discipline of the art of loving someone.

Okay, where am I going with this...ahhh yes! What is marriage?

Would I care if two homosexuals married? No. Would it destroy the fabric of society? No, divorce has done that quite nicely.

Do I think the government should be the one to grant this privilege? Hell to the no.

I think that in the United States were are guaranteed the free exercise of a religion, and that marriage traditionally has been a religious institution. There are churches such as the Unitarian Universalist Church that will marry homosexuals. If I were gay and really wanted to be married and it met my belief system I would go to the UU's and get married up and then challenge the state over the free exercise of my religion.

This would prevent the churches that don't want to marry homosexuals from ever being forced to marry them (this was a huge reason Prop 8 went down the way it did), and allow homosexuals to marry.

reply to post by Rintendo



Dude, great post I gave you a blue star( seems someone stole the gold) go on then tell us a story to raise the hackles this is ATS after all, everyone loves a good story. A little off topic I know but what the hell it's worth th detention and you write well.

reply to post by MarrsAttax


Okay, I have two points to make regarding your supposition.

One, modern secular society is "new" and evolution is slow. We are not yet physically hardwired in opposition to primordial man. Our bodies react to a world devoid of technology, although to us technology seems "old".

Two, prove we've evolved. Greed a derivation of Maslow's first "need" still drives us to action. Look at our stock market crash and the fall of the world's economic base, look at the feudal and civil wars in Africa, look at Iraq, etc. We're just predators with better weapons. If Iraq had Russia's weaponry we would have used diplomacy. That is the action of a smart predator. We took out the "weak" animal and began to feast on it as we could (of course we can't splurge for the jackals, but...).

I see no proof that we've evolved to be kinder, just more ruthlessly efficient.

For those who will give that trite "religion is the cause of the world's ills" save it for someone else. Greed disguised as religion, greed disguised as ideology, greed disguised as politics drives evil. Maslow said that man doesn't even get to the point of real acceptance of religion until EVERY OTHER NEED is met.

I wish I could say we've evolved. Individuals have, to be sure. By and large **shakes head**

reply to post by Rintendo


You're making the mistake of equating evolution with progress towards an ideal. Evolution is about success in survival. We are certainly the most successful predator on the planet.

Religion has helped in so much as it is through our cooperation that we have built our civilisation. Without cooperating and a sense of shared purpose we wouldn't have been able to build those better weapons.

You only need to look at the USA to see how religion is used to enforce morals on a group and provide a sense of purpose. It is precisely these shared beliefs in a common destiny and high ideals which allow them to bomb the living crap out of people who don't share the same viewpoint.

One could argue that the very fact that despite religion being so ingrained in our society we still choose to be crappy to one another suggests that maybe religion has another purpose other than the supposed one of getting us all to live in peace and harmony.

reply to post by moocowman


I have volunteered at several hospices since I was in high school. I think the "whys" have to do with repentance for being a good drug addict--until, of course, I wasn't...for ODing and almost killing myself--BTW, parents...don't believe that old adage about drugs equating with poor school work. I was a straight A student and a drug addict. There are other signs more prominent: a change in friends, a change in attitude, etc.

Anyway, I digress...I've done my share of repentance and usually chose to do it by punishing myself emotionally. Hence, hospice.

I have witnessed flashes of light when people died that I would write off as maybe car lights coming through the window. I have felt electricity or cold spots in the room that I wrote off as something natural or my own sense of apprehension and imagination.

But there have been a few times when the unexplainable has happened. I will give you one example, and while you will not believe it, I ask you to be kind because this one is personal.

My best friend took care of her own mother as she died of cancer. Her mother was someone who was a part of my life, as well. Her death was hard on my friend as she was the sole remaining parent and she had so many ups and downs with remission before finally succumbing. I found out about the actual death over the phone. My friend was sobbing hysterically, barely could get a word out when a child in the room with me walked over and tapped my arm. This kid was three at the time and said " said to tell that she will always love her and to look under the bed for a gift" (I am now tearing up thinking about this--thanks so much).

Anyway, this three year old had no idea who I was talking to, nor would I have said her mother's first name as I always called her Mrs_________ even as we grew older. She also would never have any clue that a gold necklace with a diamond pendent was under the bed, and that the necklace was a family heirloom.

It was as if at her moment of death she was trying to find someone who could say "I love you" to her daughter for her.

You punk! Thanks. I'm crying now.

So cynics have fun with this one, but please have fun silently.

reply to post by Rintendo


I'm lucky enough not have experienced anything that raw but I do sympathesize. Thank you for sharing your story. It's certainly not an uncommon experience.

To try and get back to the topic I'm just wondering if your experience made you believe in Jesus more. Is a belief in life after death necessarily synonymous with Christianity or indeed religion as a whole? If we do survive then does that necessarily mean God exists? And going back to an earlier point I made should that affect how we behave? Shouldn't we be good regardless of whether we think we will survive death?

reply to post by MarrsAttax


I think you're mistaking what I am saying, and what I am saying is that man is more than "ideals" he is a being physically hard-wired to act and react in certain ways. If we are able to move past reactionary action it is because we have "learned" our "self" and understand how to prevent actions from occurrence.

Chanting works because the "thinking brain" and the "repetitive" brain don't function at the same time. So when we learn tricks about ourselves we can train ourselves to react differently, but it won't change our gut reaction.

Our gut reaction tells us to hit the person or run away from the person that hits us. Our gut doesn't say: Love our enemy.

You only need to look at the USA to see how religion is used to enforce morals on a group and provide a sense of purpose.

Did Led Zeppelin cause people to have sex because Robert Plant sang about a whole lotta love so convincingly? Did Kurt Cobain cause people to commit suicide with his lyrics?

Religion is an idea. Ideas are always the shield or cover of a$$holes hell bent on getting what they want at the expense of others. If not religion, then ideology, music, etc.

It is precisely these shared beliefs in a common destiny and high ideals which allow them to bomb the living crap out of people who don't share the same viewpoint.

Do you honestly believe that Dick Cheney believes in his black little heart that Jesus is the Son of God? Do you believe that even 10% of the Republicans in power (not the Republicans at large, but in power) actually believe it?

I don't. Or they would be scared out of their minds that they would be punished for the heinous stuff they do. No, they are simply taking advantage of people that do.

One could argue that the very fact that despite religion being so ingrained in our society we still choose to be crappy to one another suggests that maybe religion has another purpose other than the supposed one of getting us all to live in peace and harmony.

How so? Maybe one could argue from an anthropological/physiological perspective that the human creature is simply incapable of denying basic instinct for very long and that Maslow was entirely correct about man. Perhaps in spite of wanting so badly to believe in a religion or idea, we are victims of chemistry and evolution and that the best we can do is just try to be good.

I've yet to hear a strong argument for religion being the root of all evil. I think this is yet another means for humans, ironically, to say: the devil made me do it! Like it's all religions fault that we're horrible instead of our own ineptitude. Religion didn't make me snark at you a few seconds ago. My rising endorphin levels did. Religion could have caused me to pause until they lowered again, but I didn't let it.

Key word: I.

Humans need to quit blaming inanimate objects or ideas for their own shortcomings. Guns don't kill people. Drugs don't inject themselves. Virgin births don't happen (woops). Religions don't cause wars. Books aren't bad. Cheesecake doesn't fly through the air until it lands in someone's throat.

People shoot people. People take drugs. People have unprotected sex. People start wars. People are racist without reading Mark Twain. People choose to eat trans fat.

[edit on 20-11-2008 by Rintendo]

reply to post by MarrsAttax


Mars,

That was one of many experiences I have had working with the dying. Did it make me believe in "Jesus" more...it made me believe that he lived on like my friend's mother did after his death.

Does that make sense? I don't know how to put together the thoughts on this one correctly.

EDIT: I forgot to answer the last the portion. It was attributed to Jesus that that we should do good for goodness sake, not for thought of reward (Heaven?) or there is no profit in it.

[edit on 20-11-2008 by Rintendo]

reply to post by Rintendo


great story dude, wasn't expecting something emotional like that good on you foe sharing it cheers

reply to post by Rintendo


Rintendo:

Thank you for the hug.........it felt really nice! On, I never blamed God for my son's death, altlho , I was very angry with him for awhile, but he has big shoulders to cry on and loving arms to hold you when you fall.

There is another part to this story. That is about 2 years after Craig died we became parents of another son, Brandon. I can truly tell you he was gift from heaven!

When I had my NDE in June I saw Craig again and he stayed with me my first day or night in the little camp where I started my journey. He came running up to me and yelling "mommy, mommy, and gave me a big hug. It was so beautiful and seemed right.

Anyway, that is off of the OP.

Peace,
Grandma

reply to post by Rintendo


My "snark" was about Christians who claim to have been healed by God and use that to preach to everyone else. I know people who do it and I find it ridiculous. It had nothing to do with charitable institutions. I have no idea where you got that from. Your comment seemed irrelevant to me...

So anyway, I dont believe at anytime in history there has been some divine intervention by any "deity" in anyones healing process from anything. Usually, Christians do not like to hear things like that. That does not mean Jesus did not exist. That does not mean all Christians are liars.

I believe things defy medical science all the time. That does not mean there is no explanation. And if there is no present explanation that does not mean Jesus or 'God' healed you. Again, most religious fanatics do not like to hear that, but it is more rational and logical and righteous to have a more 'feet on the ground approach' to your faith than one that floats around in the clouds.

At least that is my opinion.

reply to post by open_eyeballs


Okay, but will you concede that what we consider "supernatural" may not be "super" or "un" natural at all? Here is an example...gravity.

Is gravity a wave? Are there gravitons? Is gravity a combination of both? Isaac Newton realized hundreds of years ago that there must be gravity. He just couldn't define it with current technology.

Now, really think about it. Think about the leap he made, the chance he took uttering the following: There is this invisible force that keeps us on the planet and not floating around in the clouds. Think how revolutionary that must have been to say to a) people who took the nameless concept for granted, and b) the fact that there is an invisible (hence hard to prove) force.

Now, we know more about gravity. We have formulas etc to come up with propulsion technology with a high level of accuracy, and yet we still don't know everything there is to know about it...yet.

What if "spirit" becomes measurable? NDEs are already being examined by Ivy League and top ten scientific institutions. What if they discover as an extension of Einstein that energy is never destroyed and that the spirit exists? What if in twenty years we can measure it fully by new equipment? What if it is discovered that the dead (let's say "Jesus" because he's dead) aren't dead, just in different form and can assist the living?

Yes, yes, all of this is hypothetical, but my point is that science and spirituality/religion need not be opposed. Science should not act as religious dogma, nor should it replace it with its own. The ancients had the best approach, true skepsis has a level of open-mindedness and open observance.

Rather than shut the door on a topic completely, wait and be patient? Perhaps?

I do not think people hate Jesus. I think people hate what he represents. I also think people hate people who have a holier than thou attitude. The "You do not understand because you are not a Christian" superiority and smug "I will be saved because god knows his own". That is what people hate.

Let us look at the legacy of Jesus.

1 Wealthy churches decorated with gold and priceless artworks while preaching about charity.

2 Religious hatred for 2000+ years.

3 Preachers abusing the trust of their flock.

4 Religious wars. Jesus is also a teacher/prophet in other faiths.

5 All manner of abuses and crime in the name of god

The list is long. If you want a life that is governed by a book written by men. Whom I am sure have their own agendas, that is your choice. Just remember that men wrote the religious books, they did not fall from the sky signed "Lots of love, god". And we only have the word of the authors that it is the word of god. Think about it.

Do religious people choose their faith after studying the various faiths and beliefs or were they born into it. Do you go to your places of worship because your parents took you when you were young and it is just now a apart of you? If so, why not take a step back and have a good long think about it.

Religiion is suppose to guide you, not to rule or blind you.

reply to post by Grandma


What a beautiful story! I am glad you know he'll be waiting for you.

reply to post by Rintendo




Ah, you hit the nail on the head. I agree with everything you have said there. I get the feeling you might think I am athiest. That is not me at all.

We are getting off topic here, but I believe in spirit and 'God' but just not in the pastoral biblical version.

I also believe Jesus may have figured out what God is. I think he tried to explain that to his disciples. I have been told there was a lot of frustration between the apostles and Jesus because of this very reason. They could not understand what he was talking about. And it is hard to discern what exactly Jesus acctually means in his message today.

So, on topic, if someone says they hate Jesus, I find that ridiculous as well. On that same note there are quite a number of Christians whom bring out the worst in non-Christians because of fanatical views and the assertion of those views being fact.

Personally, I have never heard anyone say they "hate" Jesus. I think the OPs headline has a "tabloid" ring to it and is one of ignorance and bias towards anyone that does not believe like he/she does.

Just trying to stay on topic...

Originally posted by Grandma
reply to post by kissy princess

 

When God created man. The angels were there with him as well as Jesus and the Holy Spirit. That is who is referred to as "We" and "our likeness".


God is a God of justice not hate. He loves all his creation ans wishes that none of them should be lost. That is why Jesus came to bridge the gap that no one else could to be able to reach the Father. Jesus was the perfect blood sacrifice for all men and all women. Thought Christ we have peace with God.

God bless,
Grandma

If God is omnipotent and knows the past and present, then He knows my ultimate destiny, doesn't He? God knows whether I will choose to follow Jesus and end up in Heaven, or be cast to Hell as an unbeliever.

And God knows this even before He creates me.

Therefore, God creates souls for the express purpose of casting them into Hell so they will suffer all eternity. If God wanted to, He could only create souls that would worship Him. Rights?

Second. . .

Since God is omnipotent, He knows what every single person on this planet needs in order to believe in Jesus; He knows what Biblical contradictions must be solved, what information must be given -- yet God does not give that to everyone. Therefore, there are some people God does not want to believe in Jesus. Therefore, God withholds information from humans so that they will not accept Jesus and will be cast into hell to suffer for all eternity.

So please explain to me how you reconcile the above with "God doesn't want anyone to be lost"?

You know what????
It seems as if the majority of people here, technically are Christians, because they like and "accept" the guy, but hate, or dislike" those that represent him.

Perhaps this is a new phenomenon, a new subgroup, perhaps called something like the "non-Christian Christians" or the "Technical Christians."

This is a interesting concept.

One thing strikes me though. Jesus said, to enter Heaven you must be "born again" of the Spirit. This is an actual experience where you undergo spiritual "ego death" and have to literally re-learn functioning in society in this new format, hence the term born again.

I wonder how this works for this subgroup. Very interesting

Dominicus,

Since you claim to be "enlightened" then surely you could clear up some questions I have -- on your own, without researching it or using information from another source. I've read their answers, I'd like to hear from someone who claims to "know" God.

Would you be interested?

reply to post by GrumpyBadger


I do not think people hate Jesus. I think people hate what he represents.

You are confusing Jesus with some rather loud Christians in the United States. If a man said and did what is attributed to Jesus in the Gospels he would be considered a leftist, socialist, hippie that needed to get a real job and not bleed off of other people's taxes.

If people hate what he represents I would have to think those people are the ones that made Anne Coulter a best-selling author and supported Dick Cheney.

I also think people hate people who have a holier than thou attitude. The "You do not understand because you are not a Christian" superiority and smug "I will be saved because god knows his own". That is what people hate.

Agreed. No one likes a smarty pants. I don't particularly like to hear a lecture on what "Christians" are like in a general sort of way when it is not at all representative of Christians on the whole. I would imagine that is how you feel being judged by Christians (btw, more Christians should actually put down Paul and pick up the Gospels. They might worship in a completely different fashion if they did.

Let us look at the legacy of Jesus. He can't be judged by what anyone else does. He should only be judged by what is attributed to him and him alone. Should our Founding Fathers be judged by George Bush? Should you be judged by how the United States is perceived by the world?

1 Wealthy churches decorated with gold and priceless artworks while preaching about charity. Thank the Romans for that. The earliest Christians were world renouncers and impoverished.

Also note that secular "charity" dinners also involve the House of Versace, Prada, Valentino, five star meals, and goody bags when a simple check to the charity would have saved that much money.

My point--it's just human nature to like sparkly things.

2 Religious hatred for 2000+ years.

Racial hatred for thousands of years.
Ethnic hatred for thousands of years.
Misogeny since the dawn of time.
Political hatreds for thousands of years.
Classism for thousands of years.

There is always some reason/excuse that people use to hate each other. The common denominator is people, not religion. People are just looking for an excuse. If not religion, then class. If not religion, then politics. If not religion, then sex.

Tribal man fought with each other. No organized religion there.

3 Preachers abusing the trust of their flock.

Preachers, teachers, politicians, parents...people let other people down. This is not isolated to religion. During the height of the Catholic sex abuse scandal a major newspaper did statistics and there were as many cases of sexual abuse by educational staff in the public schools of a major city as in the Catholic Church across the country.

Pedophiles, jerks, violent people...more and more we are learning about genetics and just how much of this behavior is hard-wired into us from birth on.

4 Religious wars. Jesus is also a teacher/prophet in other faiths.

Religious wars, wars over territory, wars over natural resources, wars over ideology...man goes to war. Man has always gone to war. Methinks man likes it.

5 All manner of abuses and crime in the name of god

See three.

I don't disagree that a lot of awful has been done by religious people. I just think that it is just an excuse for awful behavior that we jump on so we can cling to a new dogma--that man is inherently noble and is being corrupted by inanimate objects and entities. Religion is a ideological code derived from spirituality. It is the "law" of a spiritual entity, just like our "laws" are the regulations of a politico-ideological entity.

The laws aren't bad. It's the people applying them that are.