Who is the real killer in abortion? The parent or the politicians

Originally posted by Spoodily
Let people have one abortion but only if they consent to being permanently sterilized and jailed for a period of time. This applies to both parents.

You won't have any repeat abortions and people will be more responsible in their sexual practices if there was some consequence to it.

There are plenty of people who are unable to have children on their own that would be more than happy and able to care for a child. There are even places set up that the parents can meet each other before hand so they will feel more confident in their decision of a home.

I don't want people that would have an abortion to be reproducing. I am all for them killing their offspring if there was a sterilization procedure that accompanied it. I say the same thing about violent criminals. If you fail at life, you should have your reproductive abilities halted. It's not like there isn't a choice involved. Give the kid to a nice home or kill your own offspring and face the consequences.

Take away these degenerate excuses for civilized human beings' ability to breed. We'll be doing us all a favor.

PS

To the folks that say a fetus is a 'growth' or 'parasite' in a woman's body. Tell me when the last time you had a baby growing inside you without inserting a penis into your vagina to be stimulated to the point of ejaculation for the purpose of self gratification.

reply to post by Lethil


No need for apologies, you are correct who a person becomes as an adult has a tremendous amount to do with chilhood experiences. and that is part of what i was trying to say. There are things that can happen to a child that turn them into cold hearted monsters as adults. There are people in this world that have had nothing but a life filled with pain due to being born to a parent that is not ready and doesn't want them.

reply to post by Ciphor

True. It all depends on the person. And I do realize a bacteria is a bad comparison for this argument. A fetus is made up of many more living things than a mouse, for instance. The fetus (if born) will eventually think (intelligently, maybe), choose (hopefully), dream, etc., while a bacteria (most likely) can't.

But the only way to really know if something can think or feel is to be that thing. I don't remember dreaming, feeling, or thinking when I was a fetus (hell, even a baby). Completely unconscious time in my mind. But maybe I did, and maybe others do/did. Of course, there's always science.

Originally posted by Spoodily

There are plenty of people who are unable to have children on their own that would be more than happy and able to care for a child.

Then explain why there are so many children still waiting for a home and parents to love them. Your statement would hold up if there weren't an enormous amount of children without loving parents still in foster homes and state facilities.

I am a 44 years old (young) woman and I am for abortion for the same reasons as all of the others here are for it.

I am not for 'partial birth' abortion. I feel that it should be a LEGAL CHOICE with 'restrictions' regarding the 'timing'. A fetus cannot support itself out of the mothers body until after the 3rd month, or there about. At this time I feel it is TOO LATE. An infant requires constant care and expensive items such as formula, diapers, lotions etc. Health care, schooling, housing, food, clothing and LOVE. The LOVE part is ESSENTIAL for happiness but you CANNOT force that to be. This country and this world is FULL of the working and non-working poor. These cannot afford a child and those with a bit of true Spirituality and Mindfulness will not FORCE one to be born into a world of poverty and hardship.

I do have a child. I was taking birth control that did not work. I was fortunate enough to be able to take care of a child from infancy both FINANCIALLY and with LOVE. I would not have given him up for anything. As a matter of fact I almost lost him due to my own body issues but my only thought was that I have a healthy baby. He is now 23. However, if I had NOT BEEN ABLE to raise this child in a proper environment with LOVE and true caring, than I'd have more than likely 'terminated' the pregnancy.

It is nothing less than PURE UNADULTERATED SELFISHNESS to FORCE an infant into this world to be put into a sorely lacking 'system' and/or to live in poverty and filth only to die a death, usually, in some form of miserable condition.

Our so called system for these children is sorely lacking and when we have Americans going overseas to adopt instead of attempting to help out a child in their own back yard, well than I see a big problem. These children are often times treated as no more than 'pets' when individuals come to 'check out' the new infant that has become 'available'. "Oh! But we wanted a boy, and we wanted blue eyes, not brown". Also the costs of adoption are very prohibitive. And what of the 'older' children? Most people want BABIES.

IMHO it is NOT even a SPIRITUAL action to be anti abortion UNLESS you choose to put a significant portion of your own salary and TIME up to assist the 'system' which these infants will end up in. And remember, infants grow up. Children need constant supervision and LOVE. One adult to 15 or more children cannot satisfy that need and yet that is what this system is up against and that is what the so called "Right to Lifers" and/or so called "Christians" actually FIGHT to keep up. They actually FIGHT to FORCE life into this heinously poor excuse for life.

Call me what you will.

As to the individual who INSISTS that the world is NOT overpopulated: Do your homework! You are very misinformed. The land is becoming barren because our need for crop after crop has depleted the soil. Man is the only creature in nature who has populated to the point of being within five feet of his neighbor and even closer in places like China. We ARE OVERPOPULATED. It's a scientific fact and is the cause of the multitude of new 'pestilence' occurring around the globe.

Those who would 'slay' me for my belief and advocacy of Abortion, PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS and realize how ignorant and SELFISH you are when you force UNWANTED life into this world. YOU be the ones to 'register' with the system as an 'ADOPTIVE PARENT' for the next infant forced into the world.

reply to post by chise61


Too many idiots having too many unwanted kids. A lot of them probably share the same parents. This could have been solved with the first abortion and the sterilization of both parents.

You can't reap what you can't sow.

reply to post by GorehoundLarry


This is what I'm saying. The real debate here is when life begins. I again am not religious but believe anything is possible. I feel life begins when the egg meets the sperm. Because from this point and on this baby unless killed by the parents or some other event will live a full life. Hence, it's life has begun.

reply to post by abstrusenumber1


So you think it's not ok to force a child into existence but is ok to force one out of existence? Isn't this bordering on hypocritical? to a degree?

"Who is the real killer in abortion? The parent or the politicians"

The person/people who put, or the person/people who allow the putting of, the sperm in there, unnecessarily.

reply to post by Ciphor


Proving that listening to mozart outside of the womb helps a child learn does not clearly show that the experiences while in the womb enhance anything, your logic is flawed. Also while i have memories of when i was an infant being pushed in a stroller, i have no memories of being in the womb. How can anyone possibly know for a fact that a baby in the womb actually thinks?

Women that experience a baby kicking during an abortion must have had an abortion after their first trimester, you can't feel a baby while in your first trimester.

You are all basing the termination of these lives on the lives of the ones who "Might" have a bad life. You are judging the good in with the bad because of the possibility of bad. How can you not see how wrong this is?

What about the ones that turn out good? What about the lives that turn out ok? How do you justify there deaths? Win some lose some? With this dangerous way of thinking why not apply it to adulthood? Why not eliminate everyone on the planet because you feel bad for those whose lives turn out bad? Why let the good live in risk of the bad. That is your argument? What a senseless stance to take.

I feel this is a large problem. When did hope get replaced with despair? I hope more fetuses get a chance to prove you all wrong. That they can live a productive life and overcome the odds, that a parent can overcome the hardships of not being ready. Thousands do it everyday, yet you continue to say what you say.

reply to post by chise61

How can anyone possibly know for a fact that a baby in the womb actually thinks?

My logic is not flawed Chise. This not a mater of logic in regards to memory but one of fact. Science Chise, that's how. The brain can be shown to have activity with ultrasounds. In all areas including it's memory.

I don't advocate abortion at any point of the abortion because it's life has started, it's journey has begun. You need further evidence? Look around you. Every single person in your life was once in it's first trimester. Was once a sperm in the egg. They are all alive. They are all in existence.

[edit on 4-8-2008 by Ciphor]

reply to post by Spoodily

So then basically you agree that there are more children out there that need to be adopted than there are people willing to adopt them ? That's what i'm talking about until the numbers even out abortion has to be an option for those that make a mistake, have an accident, etc.

reply to post by chise61


I encourage them to get an abortion because I don't think idiots should have offspring. I also support mandatory sterilization for both parents after the first abortion. They had a chance and they failed. No more kids for them...ever.

reply to post by chise61


what does it mater if they die at 1 month in womb, or die at the age of 8? There life is over. My point is give them a chance. You are saying no, no chance. You die because it's possible your life wont work.

Personally I would rather spend 8 years on this planet then none. I would fight. If someone tried to tell me I was probably going to not make it through life ok, so let's just spare you and end your life now I would not allow it. I would say let me try. You got to try, why can't I?

[edit on 4-8-2008 by Ciphor]

Chise I find a quote in your signature ironic to our discussion

"Life is just a chance to grow a soul" Powell Davies.

If you support this, then why do you support taking away that chance from others while it was given to you and you overcame hardships that you don't think others will? I don't get you.

reply to post by Ciphor


I can't speak for anybody else, my thoughts have nothing to do with wether or not the fetus can survive and overcome, that is not the issue. The issue is that every woman must be allowed to do what she thinks is the best solution for her and her child.

As for the thousands of people that turn around everyday when they have a child and become good parents, there are also those that never do, so yes you must figure the good in with the bad. I see parents almost everyday that are not fit to take care fo a puppy, let alone a child.

reply to post by Ciphor


I was referring to your logic being flawed in the sense that using data produced by introducing a child to something outside of the womb, does not prove anything about what happens inside the womb.

I'm very well aware of the fact that every person was once a fetus in the first trimester, i'm well aware of all the trimesters of pregancy. I have two full grown sons and two beautiful grandchildren.

I think you may have misunderstood what i was saying. I was referring to the fact that a mother can not feel a baby kicking during an abortion if the abortion is done during the first trimester.

So then you are 100% standing behind terminating the good with the bad to eliminate the bad?

I am sorry, this is such a tragic way to feel. Might we bomb a building full of innocent people to get rid of a group of radicals threatening an attack? "Well there is 42 people in there, but the 12 terrorists must go. Blow it up"

What hope is there for humanity when people think things as this.

reply to post by Ciphor


It has nothing to do with thinking that others may not overcome hardships. It has nothing to do with advocating taking the life of an innocent child. It has to do with the right of every woman to be allowed to make her own decision, and have society force that decision on her. You can not force someone to be a parent. You can not force someone to love a child, especially one that they don't want.

I just don't feel that i have the right to impose my moral beliefs on another human being.

[edit to add]

While i may believe that life is just a chance to grow a soul, it doesn't mean that i believe that i have a right to force that belief on others. Nor do i have the right to force them to bring life into this world, that is their decision to make and their's alone. Every person must grow their own soul and answer to themselves. Every person must atone for their own sins.

Although i may not believe that abortion is the right thing to do i must honor a woman's right to make that choice for herself. It is a very personal matter and should be left up to the individual.

It's ok if you don't get me, i don't get me half the time. Truely knowing yourself is a lifelong process.

[edit on 4/8/08 by chise61]