Who is the real killer in abortion? The parent or the politicians

Originally posted by chise61
I see parents almost everyday that are not fit to take care fo a puppy, let alone a child.

Its all about the souls path. The child born into an unfit home did this to experience that part of life. To abort is to put off what that soul had to experience.

We have a limited view of the big picture in our 70-100 years of life. Its almost impossible to know what the reasons are for a persons life to be lived full of strife...like the body builder building muscle by hurting and overworking the muscle the soul builds on itself through the same method.

Until it is more mature and strong it must be tempered by walking through the fire. Please let them walk the path as it was laid out for them. Don't prematurely abort the path before the feet hits the ground.

Namaste

dictionary.reference.com...
murder

1. The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

If it not illegal and it's not done with malice it is not murder. I do not believe for a second that women have abortions just to be malicious.

[edit on 4-8-2008 by riley]

reply to post by LoneGunMan


Perhaps there are those souls that were not meant to be here, or were meant to arrive at a later time. Perhaps the soul that prevented the other soul from following its path had to experience that part of life. Perhaps in the grand scheme of things if a soul is truely meant to be here there will be an intervention of some kind to allow it to follow it's path. Perhaps some souls were never meant to experience having the responsibility of another soul.

I truely do understand what you are saying though. Although i have never stopped a soul from following it's path, i have no right to make that decision for anyone else. Everyone must follow their own path, make their own decisions, learn from their life, and deal with the outcome of their choices.


Namaste

reply to post by riley


I suppose it all depends on what a person reasons in their mind is ok and whether that reasoning is left up to the government. But older cultures have shown that increased degradation and lowers standards ensue.

Infanticide is a practice known to china and India. The children are actually born and then killed.

www.gendercide.org...

"Instances of infanticide ... are usually singular events; they do not happen en masse. But the accumulation of such officially sanctioned or demanded murders comprises, in effect, serial massacre. Since such practices were so pervasive in some cultures, I suspect that the death toll from infanticide must exceed that from mass sacrifice and perhaps even outright mass murder." (Rummel, Death by Government, pp. 65-66.)

So we as a culture can reason however we want as to where to draw the line on accepted destruction of a new life, be it in the womb or out. India, and China, both older nations and cultures than the US both have somehow reasoned within their cultures to allow the death of children that are born.

At what point do we recognize social irresponsibility that leads to the deaths of millions of unwanted babies merely because we have made sexual intimacy recreational.

Perhaps a closer look at our morality in terms of sexual intercourse and when it is undertaken, is really where the solution for curbing the situation is needed.

Peace

[edit on 4-8-2008 by HIFIGUY]

Originally posted by no name needed
reply to post by Amaterasu

 

Sorry, I did not intend to label you anti-choice. I was merely commenting on some of the content of your post. If that should have been directed at another poster, then my mistake. Apology extended

Not a problem. [smile] It happens.

Roe vs. Wade should be overturned and I'll explain why. All Roe vs. Wade does is make it illegal for abortion to be illegal. Somehow, the court has found abortion to be a right under the US Constitution. The implementation of Roe vs. Wade makes it illegal for any state, city or other American population to outlaw abortion.
This takes away any power from any American law making entity to make abortion illegal even if the population is overwhelmingly against it for moral or religious reasons. Americans can't agree on abortion because we're a nation made up of many different cultures and subcultures with different values and views on freedom and democracy.
It would be no different if a predominately conservative or religious court were to someday outlaw homosexuality. Some would agree and some would disagree. Social matters like this should be left up to the people to decide, not justices who were selected based on their political leanings.

Originally posted by Interestinggg
"Who is the real killer in abortion? The parent or the politicians"

The person/people who put, or the person/people who allow the putting of, the sperm in there, unnecessarily.

I completely agree with you there, Interestinggg. Even after I've just spent I don't know how long reading through this thread to answer it properly.

If a woman is still in school, is a promising student of whatever career she wishes to take, even has plans to go to university and then gets pregnant through say, the birth control not working, is it morally right to force her to have a child? Is it morally right to condemn both child and mother to a life of poverty and misery, because the mother was not able to do what she wanted/needed to do (get a higher education/well paid job because she is looking after the child) and because having a child is expensive. Well, is it?

And, going on, since hypothetically pro-lifers have forced this woman to give birth, what about the father? If you're going to force unwanted births on women then you should also force the man that impregnated her in the first place to help support and raise the child. It was a 50/50 venture in the first place, it should be a 50/50 venture afterwards. Incidentally, has anyone seen any Pro-Lifers who advocate this? Because I sure haven't. But if there were, I'd respect their beliefs a hell of a lot more.

And what would you get from the above? A family of hatred, an environment no child should be born into.

Personally I am Pro-CHOICE, as in, it is the mothers CHOICE (hopefully with some discussion with the father) whether or not to terminate the child. Not anyone elses. Limiting someones choice is limiting their freedom and the quality of life for both.

And animals do have sex for fun, just in case anyone goes down the nature path. Having sex for any other reason, speaking behaviourally, is unnatural. Do you really think creatures such as lions, dogs, fish, dolphins etc realise that what they are doing results in one of them getting pregnant and giving birth some months/weeks down the line?

In fact, if the body detects any defects or serious abnormalities with the woman and/or the foetus inside, it will carry out a miscarriage by itself and then reabsorb it. A natural, if harsh process to make sure both mother and the next potential baby are happy and healthy. Since we are no longer in a society where we live in the wild, in one where financial, living and emotional issues could easily be considered defects, abortion should really be considered the 'next step' of ensuring health and happiness. Since we have taken many 'next steps' in such a short period of time.

[edit on 4-8-2008 by ShiningSabrewolf]

[edit on 4-8-2008 by ShiningSabrewolf]

I think it's...

The Doctor

The politicians and the parents are accomplices.

Originally posted by Ciphor
reply to post by Amaterasu

 

Your full of spam lol. Please less spam, and less picking apart, more thought out points. You made no points that I can detect. but just for a laugh I'll try and respond to this.

Uh... Yeah. Sure. Whatever you say.

I want to have the choice to handle it as I see fit based on my perception.

Again, as I have already stated, I am not debating your right to choose something. I am debating the fetuses rights. You say it is not a life and has none. I say his beating heart and thinking brain is a life. What is your argument as to why it's not a life? Was it the chord or the breathing thing?

Not exactly... I say the mechanicals are there and developing. This does not mean it's HUMAN.

About that soul thing... How do you know? It is counter to what the Biblical God says... And a number of other Gods, as well. They pretty much agree that the soul enters the body at first breath.

I ask that you please read my posts and respond appropriately.
I am not religious and have said I feel this is a humanitarian debate. I also made sure to say "if you believe in a soul" as that is not a fact. That is why I added that. Way to miss the point. I see a trend of this with you.

Hey, YOU mentioned the soul... And it was in a subsequent post that you explained about your lack of religious beliefs. Please pay attention to what you have said and when it was said.

WTF??? Where did THAT come from? How do you equate a stopping of a process towards a vessel for a soul at first breath with the taking of the vessel for a soul already incarnate!?!

So your saying you are religious and believe in a soul?

Nope, not religious. I bring up the first breath thing because mostly anti-choicers are religious but don't even know what their God said. But I do believe in Spirit, and suspect strongly that it enters at first breath... (Spirit is the life-energy which flows from inside one out into the Universe - as opposed to the "standard model," which has a "God Out There" feeding energy inwards.)

I never said I did, I simple implied if one does. I said I'm not religious. What I am saying is they are both murder. Both need oxygen, both eat, both have beating hearts, both think.

Both...? [shrug] Anyway, fetuses do not eat, they absorb nutrients, and it is a projection of yours to say they "think." Fact is, you cannot prove they think, nor can I prove they do not. What we choose to believe here is based on personal perspective. And if you want to conduct YOUR life based on your perspectives, by all means, do so. But it is NOT your right to tell me, through legislation, physical force or otherwise to live MY life by YOUR perspectives.

My right to choose to decapitate someone on a bus or decapitate someone in a womb I feel are no different.

So fine. Don't do either. Or do both. (But taking a sovereign entity's life is likely to get you jailed...) Your CHOICE. Just leave me to MY choice.

Try and stick to the point. You wander to far off into laa laa land in your replies and miss what is being said.

Uh... Yeah. Sure. Whatever you say.

Ohhhhhh. I see. Are you involved with PETA, perhaps? A vegan by conscience? And you would force your perspective on others because...?

This is just pathetic. We are not discussing the point of survival. I eat cheeseburgers. We are not debating eating babies for survival. Please, I beg you, stay on point.

I liked that you cut your remark from the reply, making it unclear what I was responding to... So that you could accuse me, perhaps? Let's revisit:

You said, "Right to choose right? Wrong. When it's in regards to a life and considering another being whether it be human, fetus, or animal."

So you say that one has no right to choose, whether the life is human, fetus (note the differentiation you made here) or animal. And then when I respond (appropriately!) you cut YOUR statement, and then accuse me of failing to respond appropriately. Oh, I roll my eyes, wondering who is more pathetic here.

These are your perceptions, and by all means, kill nothing! Not the ants that you might step on, not the bacteria in your mouth with mouthwash, not the pig, not the [fill in the blank]. By all means. But what is it that makes your perception better than mine if I want to eat pig and rinse my mouth out with Listerine? Or rather... what makes your perception, which is best for YOU, BEST for me over the perception I have? What gives YOU the right?

I guess this is a point, since it addresses what we deem a life form eligible for emotional consideration. I think the line is drawn on the creatures ability to display emotion and feel as well as a persons ability to detect this emotion and these feelings. Since we know this is a human baby and our brains are far more advanced then other creatures we consider eligible for this then I would say this is a weak argument. You are comparing the feelings and emotions of a bacteria to the unborn fetus of the most intellectually advanced creature on this planet.

No, it's just that you said - you DID - that it's not our choice when a life is involved of human, fetus or animal. What was I to think. I was not "comparing" the two.

Be that as it may, if you may place your definitions on this point wherever you wish - for YOUR life. Stay out of mine.

Again, what makes you Lord (Lady)? What gives YOU the right to choose for ME?

Once again we find you off in laa laa land. Try and keep up ok? I am not lord. What I am saying is neither are you. What gives YOU the right to choose for HIM?

Whom? The fetus? The one I don't believe is human until first breath? The fact that it is in MY body. That's what gives me the right. You are accusing me of being in "laa laa land," but you clearly are having trouble grasping what I am saying here. You can dislike my choices, you can make your own choices about your fetuses, but...

Don't legislate ME out of MY choices because YOU want to control ME to conform with YOUR perspectives.

I feel he is a life and you can't choose for him.

I feel it is MY call on MY body. I make no effort to assign MY perspectives to what YOU choose.

You feel it is not and you are choosing for yourself.

Exactly.

Now please join the actual discussion I am discussing. What criteria is it that you feel this is not a life form and has no right to a life.

I mentioned this earlier, and I will do so again. I know you will not agree, but that's ok, as long as you do not move against me because you think your perspective is somehow better - for ME.

I believe the Spirit enters the vessel as first breath. That's just me. And if I don't feel I can give a quality life, full of love and with other needs met, I feel it is wrong of me to allow such a vessel to be filled with spirit to endure a less than optimal existence in a world already overpopulated.

Surely if I can offer that which is needed, I will likely choose to complete the vessel. But I don't want anyone FORCING me to bring the vessel forth to be filled.

[edit on 8/4/2008 by Amaterasu]

Originally posted by Ciphor

Over-population...

Alright, so your saying that due to over-population this is acceptable. Well why then can't I go decapitate you? this also lowers the population? Wanted? Unwanted? I can find a thousand unwanted adults to cut up right now. This point again makes no sense to me.

Has it occurred to you that we are fast approaching the point that it won't matter how many humans made it into vessels, because we will be so overpopulated that we will be starving, (virtually) all of us? Do you not see that NO ONE has a right to "cull the herd" once that first breath is taken, but that if we keep unwanted pregnancies from coming to term, we might have a chance here?

Or is this "life" more important that this planet?

I am beginning to think, considering how directly I have been answering your words, that you are deliberately "not getting it." Either that or I must conclude that you lack a bit of brightness. Not only that, you are behaving quite rudely.

Originally posted by Ciphor
If over-population is indeed a defense for this horrible act, then why would you turn your blades on innocent unborn children? Why not turn them on sickos rapists etc.?

Because none of us is God, equipped to decide whose morals are the "right" ones. *I* may think that all purple people are an abomination and should be removed from the gene pool. The purple people might have different perspectives on that.

Where better to start "culling our herd" than with UNWANTED pregnancies - before they become human consumers?

I'm not advocating this, I feel everyone has the right to live, over-population or not.

LOLOL! Overpopulation at some point, my dear, means that most EVERYBODY dies HORRIBLY from lingering starvation. Yes, let's promote this, I say. [sigh]

I'm simply saying if this is such a concern...why not commit suicide and help us out? Because that's crazy right? You like your life, don't want to lose it...well maybe they don't want to lose theres.

Ahhhhh. "Maybe." Maybe not. You don't know. I don't know. No one knows. Where better to start culling the herd?

Sorry this just seems a poor excuse to me, I can go on and on with better alternatives to lowering population then killing innocent babies.

Fetuses are NOT babies! And of COURSE it seems a "poor excuse" to you. You are set in your perspective and anything that challenges it will, kneejerk response, seem poor to you.

My abortion was the WORST thing that EVER happened in my life!
I was poor. Working in construction with a recreational drug lifestyle and I was 19.
I was NOT religious and I thought that if I had it done before it moved, it wouldn't be murder.
Some of my family told me it was best that I did it. Did I want to raise a child on welfare?
I thought it was a 'blob' of flesh.
An egg.

I got the money even though I had to sleep with the boss to keep my job. He was a deputy sheriff and at first he just wanted to take pictures. (with my clothes on.)

It was the pinnacle of my downward spiraling.
On the recovery table I saw a 'devil' talking to me and I went to throw up.
They offered me crackers and lemonaid, but, NO councelling.

I couldn't sleep with the lights off after that and I was trying to O.D. left and right.

I didn't tell my parents.
All in all I spent 6 months in a mental hospital where they almost killed me by putting me on haldol and excess doses of lithium. I had thrush so bad, I couldn't swallow.
I was in a walking 'blackout' for 8 days. I was hallucinating.
A nurse was holding my hand and telling me it was going to be O.K., while a baseball team was pitching to each other in my room.
I went, later, when I could get up and asked the nurse at the desk for the other nurse. She said "Honey, she isn't here. You had better tell your mom about that when she comes for visitation."
She was nice and was genuinely worried about me.

I lived with that murder until 4 years later when Jesus cleaned my spirit and soul!
Praise God!

Fetuses suck their thumbs, feel pain, smile and move in the womb.
They are ALIVE. Do most of you even know how abortions are performed on non-anestaistized (sp) babies?
It's HORRIBLE. Either pulling them apart and counting the peices as they come out(D and X), Saline (which burns them alive, or partial birth. Too horrible to say right now!)

I have volunteered in crisis pregnancy centers, I have donated to MANY orphanages.
I will continue to give all I can! That includes telling women how BAD these things are to their mental health.
Grown men came back from vietnam with trauma from killing guilty AND innocent, what makes us think we can murder with no repercussions?


No one wants to realize the burden abortion puts on those involved! (The mother, the father, the nurse and the doctor.)


[edit on 4-8-2008 by Clearskies]

Originally posted by slicobacon

Americans can't agree on abortion because we're a nation made up of many different cultures and subcultures with different values and views on freedom and democracy.

Social matters like this should be left up to the people to decide, not justices who were selected based on their political leanings.

The reasons that you listed are actually in fact the reason why Roe vs wade should NEVER be overturned. Roe vs Wade has done exactly what you suggest needs to be done, it has taken the decision making authority over a social matter out of the hands of politicians and the judicial system and placed it in the hands of the individual where it should be.

A matter such as this should be left up to the individual not to politicians, the judicial system, or society in general as it is a personal decision and does not effect society as a whole.

Originally posted by Ciphor
...that a baby fetus

As opposed to an adult fetus...?

Sorry, one liner for clarification inquiry.

Originally posted by Ciphor

As far as if there is a God and him saving our souls, the only soul that you need worry about is your own, let everyone else worry about theirs.

No. I will worry about them, someone has to. God knows there parents don't.
Again Chise, how can you say this is ok because some "might" have a hard life. What about the ones whose lives turn out ok? The parents who turn around because of the experience? How do you then justify this? To bad for them? So sad? What a tragic loss? No. You don't justify there loss of life and judge them based on the bad.

And what about those who are left in their filth for a week at a time, used in ritual abuse, sexually abused, beaten until near death, not fed for days at a time, left alone as infants and toddlers, and on and on.

You can't place a value on the life you would "save" unless you're willing to take responsibility for EVERY child you would force to be born.

Do you not see how dark and horrid this thinking path is?

Your thinking or hers? Heh. I think anyone on a crusade to control others is dark and horrid.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan

Originally posted by chise61
I see parents almost everyday that are not fit to take care fo a puppy, let alone a child.

Its all about the souls path. The child born into an unfit home did this to experience that part of life. To abort is to put off what that soul had to experience.

Um... Though I cannot prove my perspective on this, neither can you prove yours. An aborted fetus was never meant to house a soul (or Spirit). If one takes your view and believes that the soul/Spirit enters at conception, the choice was made to experience abortion, not life. It puts off nothing.

reply to post by Clearskies


Wow. So sorry to hear you had such difficulties. My abortion was quick and painless, and I was in and out in 3 hours. I slept well that night, never saw devils, and never had any guilt.

Yes, I broke my pelvis, was x-rayed at 6 months to check the healing, had bronchitis, took tetracycline, and chose an abortion when I found out I was 8 weeks pregnant.

I have no regrets. And twenty years later was blessed with The Best Little Girl in the Universe. (Ok, I'm prejudiced on that point. [grin])

I contend that your issues were likely due to your perspective, having religious input, I might suppose. I could be wrong and it was God (one or another of them).

Originally posted by Ciphor

No. I will worry about them, someone has to. God knows there parents don't.

Do you not see how dark and horrid this thinking path is? Judge all by the bad? Put all the unwanted ones to death so some don't risksuffering a bad life? Give no chance, just eliminate all? How can you seem so wise yet so cruel. I can tell you are not this person. Wake up Chise. This is wrong. It is not our choice who lives and who dies based on what "might" happen. What is "probable" to happen. Because for every million that suffer, you will have at least one that doesn't and deserved there life, if not a whole hell of a lot more. It's NOT OUR CHOICE who gets to live and who gets to die.

I'm sorry i missed this post earlier. Again you have misunderstood something that i said, I wasn't implying that you should not worry about the souls of the babies that are aborted, i meant that you shouldn't worry about the souls of the mothers that have abortions. They need to worry about their own souls, no one can do this for them it is a decision that only they can make and only they have to live with what they have done.


In a perfect world every child that was conceived would be wanted, loved, and welcomed into a loving responsible family and have a happy childhood and a good life. But this is not a perfect world and quite often that is not the case. Until there comes a time where only children that are wanted will be conceived there will always be women aborting. So until that time comes, which i seriously doubt will, when it comes to abortion i will simply have to have the serenity to accept the things that i can not change.


Do you not see what a dark and horrid life a child may have if born to a mother that has been forced to have the child? Do you really think a child would have a chance being born to a mother that wanted to abort that child but was forced to have it ?


This is what you're not understanding i am not judging anyone, i am not saying to put any of them to death, i am not justifying anything. What i am saying is that you are right, that the choice of who lives or dies is NOT ours to make based on anything, or nothing at all, it just is NOT our choice. The choice is solely up to the mother and the father and no one else.

I am not saying that even one single child does not deserve a chance at life. But do you see your own reasoning ? You reason that for every million children that suffer one child doesn't, is it fair to say that the suffering of millions of children is ok as long as one child doesn't suffer ?


You're worried about the one child that doesn't suffer, i am worried about the thousands that do. I had just written a long post to try to explain to you the agony of being born to a parent that can not be a parent and really doesn't want to. I removed it as i realized it wasn't appropriate to post, if you actually knew what some children suffer, through their viewpoint, you may understand my view better.


I believe in God, but it is not my place to say that anyone else should believe in him. I can not try to impose my spiritual beliefs on another person, it is not my place. It is no different with abortion, while i would love for every child to be born and have a happy life, it is a moral judgement for the parents to make, it is not my place, nor is it my right to try to impose my moral beliefs on them.

I really can't debate this anymore, it rips me apart inside looking at my sleeping kids thinking if someone had killed them as fetuses to prevent there hard life that I would never have met them.

I rest better knowing that not all people are mad. HIFIGUY your right on the ball. It's all a slope that we gradually slide down as society. To think some on this thread actually can say that stabbing a baby in the head as it's passing out of the vagina is not murder but once it spits out the liquid in it's mouth and sucks oxygen into it's lungs it's now alive?

argh.

reply to post by Amaterasu


Think what you like of my view I don't care, condoms and birth control are readily available for those who need them and you should think of the the possible consequences of your actions, if not you messed up and tough luck.