Who is the real killer in abortion? The parent or the politicians

Originally posted by Amaterasu
reply to post by Clearskies

 

Wow. So sorry to hear you had such difficulties. My abortion was quick and painless, and I was in and out in 3 hours. I slept well that night, never saw devils, and never had any guilt.

Yes, I broke my pelvis, was x-rayed at 6 months to check the healing, had bronchitis, took tetracycline, and chose an abortion when I found out I was 8 weeks pregnant.

I have no regrets. And twenty years later was blessed with The Best Little Girl in the Universe. (Ok, I'm prejudiced on that point. [grin])

I contend that your issues were likely due to your perspective, having religious input, I might suppose. I could be wrong and it was God (one or another of them).

Thank you. Someone else who actually went through an abortion speaks out.

I wonder how many on this board who want to control other people's lives because of their belief - - were ever in a position to make that decision.

I've had a miscarriage - 2 kids - and an abortion. At least you and I are qualified to discuss this topic with a valid opinion.

I had 2 toddlers and was going through a divorce. My ex came by one night and we cried in each others arms - and had sex. But it was not going to stop the divorce. I was an emotional mess. I was taking birth control pills but threw one up. At 5' 7" my weight had dropped to 104 pounds.

The last thing I needed was a baby.

I occasionally had thoughts of "what if" - - but have NEVER regretted my decision.



This is about individual Rights.

I am not interested or even care what someone else's belief is. My believe is the soul hovers near the mother - but enters the baby's body only after it is born.

For the metaphysical person - I absolutely understand denying that soul a chosen experience. But it will just have to make other arrangements - which it can.

Originally posted by Annee
Thank you. Someone else who actually went through an abortion speaks out.

Most welcome. I only shudder at any thought of "what if." With that deep a set of disadvantages, I can only imagine the issues whatever might have resulted would have. I'm betting it would not have even lived.

To those who say, "You made a mistake, tough luck!" Tough luck for the world, and society then, I guess. If all these millions of abortions had not taken place each year, we would be heading headlong all the faster towards the demise of this planet - with a higher percentage of sociopaths and psychopaths amongst us.

And I guess it's "tough luck" for the child born unwanted, too.

How ultimately foolish.

Originally posted by Amaterasu

Originally posted by Annee
Thank you. Someone else who actually went through an abortion speaks out.

Most welcome. I only shudder at any thought of "what if."

Oh don't take it too seriously. I had two daughters. The "what if" usually centered around - what would it have been like to have a son.

It really wasn't a very deep "what if". Now I have two grandsons.

Looking at it from a metaphysic standpoint - - one of the grandsons could be that soul. That might sound weird to some - but it isn't . There is no guilt or anything attached to it. That is just how metaphysics works. A bit off topic - but souls tend to reincarnate in groups and/or family unit.

It's a trick question! Nobody is the killer ... aborted babies are no more life then scraping off a few cells from my skin.

reply to post by no name needed


I am gonna agree with a you a little. It is nature's instinct to breed.
But we also don't need to encourage it and make it easy by giving plenty of time and space. But a lot more teens are having sex and more frequently then they need too out of peer pressure, pressure from SOs, to find love to replace absentee parents.

There needs to be education on peer pressure. And teen mothers coming to the schools and showing how hard it really is. More therapists need to handle disfunction families. Workshops to build confidence and self esteem.

Many reasons to have sex is not just because of drive. It is to replace missing love. In fact, I would be willing to bet that most is to feel loved becaue one or both of the parents are absent emotionally or physcically.
Or as a result of sexual,emotional, and physical abuse that is so prevalent in high school.

Kids need to be taught how to handle the peer pressure.

I am kind of horrified when I think back and how much I was made fun of for being a virgin at 15.

Middle School and high school is a war zone.And many times sex is used as a tool, a way of fitting in, and as a bartering.


A leauge of professionals need to be trained for this.
As for the kids wanting sex just for the fun of it, then birth control needs to be on hand.

reply to post by nixie_nox


Parental absence is not a factor if you ask me. Both of my parents were around and I was loved plenty. Peer pressure had nothing to do with it either. I sought out sex as a teen because that is what people do when their hormones begin to "kick in" (hormone pressure??? LOL). Sex, the act of procreation, is ingrained into our DNA and we, as animals, seek it out. And the truth is...it feels better than masturbation.

To preach, teach or lecture towards people to ignore their hormones or animal instincts is sort of like telling someone to ignore their instinct to breath. It can't be done, as instinct will ALWAYS override thought!

[edit on 5-8-2008 by no name needed]

Originally posted by jtown
leave these people alone its there choice it has nothing to do with any of you and no one should be able to tell some one else what they can or can not do with there body,some of these people will have to live with this guilt for the rest of there life and they sure as hell dont need you lot pointing the finger

No disrespect to you but I have a question. I am not weighing in on either side of this argument because it is obviously a stalement argument.
If there is nothing morally wrong with abortion, then why does the person live in guilt?

reply to post by clg79


This is easy to say unless your a silly fifteen year old who has no idea what they are doing. Who has been told that the rhythem method works or their boyfriend is sterile. And don't also try to say that they are stupid and should know better because the teenage mind is a trainwreck anyways. If you don't believe me that kids are clueless then listen to loveline. Unless you take all the teenagers in the world and put the boys and girls on seperates sides of the planet and build a 1000 foot wall, there are gonna be accidental pregnancies.

And there are many adults responsible enough to take birth control and it fails. And it does fail. That one percent does happen. I know of a person hwo had the million and one shot of being on birth control and using a condom because they didn't want kids, and they got pregnant. They figured since the kid beat those odds it was meant to be and is probably going to be some kind of miracle worker, lol.


stuff happens and nothing bugs me more then lableing everyone as, their fault. Yes people need to be held responsible. But people screw up, and without meaning too a lot of times.

continually throwing members of society to the wolves for not being absolutely perfect doesn't make you any better then the people making mistakes.


Not all lives are created equal. Not all minds are equal. everyones emotional wellbeing is not created equal. And people are not armed and born with infinite knowledge that tells them what is right or wrong and what the consequences are. You are at the mercy of the limits of your knowledge. If you live in an area where every single person does drugs, then most likely that is what you perceive life to be and you will do drugs too.

then you have people with disorders like bipolar disorder that is prone to excessive and impulsive behavior, that don't have the ability to rationalize on the spot.

Many teens and women are coerced into sex by their partners.

53% of teens admit to not understand sex or birth control.

It has been found that women who were exposed to abuse early in childhood, family strife and disfunction, are far more likely to have a teenage pregnancy, then those who don't. If childhood experiences of abuse, violence and family strife were eliminated, that would reduce a third of the unwanted pregnancies.

Teen girls dating older boys are also much more likely to get pregnant.

Only when every child is educated on sex and birth control can it be determined if these programs are working or not.

If 53% of teens are uneducated about sex, and have a dysfunctional family, more then likely they are going to get pregnant.

Add in Hollywood who is now glorifying pregnancy and making it look easy and cool.

Who is responsible? We all are.

Our legislators for not having every 13 year old educated, and making birth control prolific, especially to less advantaged segments of the population.

To most families for creating a dysfunctional environment.

So are you telling me that a fourteen year old girl, with no father, a single depresed mother working two jobs, and absolutely no self esteem or confidence, is capable of making life decisions????

Or a poverty stricken mother at the mercy of an abusive husband, who threatens to leave her with nothing and beat her if she doesn't sleep with him is making decisions?

And why is it that all these terminated pregnancies felt they have no other option?

No one goes to have an abortion for fun.

Some may use it as birth control, but most are frightened females who feel they have no other choice. Who have abusive boyfriends that they don't want to be permenantly connected too. Who don't have support to carry a pregnancy even to adoption. And more then likely if these pregnancies are carried through, it is children who are going to be abusers themselves or on welfare themselves, and are likely to have teen pregnancies.

Teenagers also have a much higher risk of complications during pregnancy.


I don't believe in abortion after the second trimester. I also don't believe that whatever religion it may be, that is is a factory stamping out souls every conception.
A soul enters a baby at some point before birth, when it decides. IN a baby that is about to be aborted, it waits till it has a body where it is going to be born.You dont catch a train to nowhere do you?

There are things worse then death. And a life of abuse and poverty, in the hands of people who can't take care of you, and more then likely don't care, is not ideal.

Fight the disease, not the symptom.

You can do so much more becoming a friend of a teen or raggled mother then you can by running around protesting with signs.

I would have cared for my baby, if I had had it.
I WISH I had born it!
There are LOTS of resources for those who have them!

I knew I loved children after I aborted, when I actually had to take care of my baby nephew!
I would have laid down my life for him!
(Of course I knew the abortion was evil right away!)

Stupid teenagers can love their children, not abort.
Haven't you seen the classes high schoolers have taking care of an egg with a partner?

Many instincts come naturally.



[edit on 5-8-2008 by Clearskies]

You know my life hasn't been so great. I never knew my father and my mother didn't have family where she bore me, she made minimum wage and raised me in a poor area, I'm sure I was a real burden to her and she has let me know in her own way from time to time. Things would of been so much better for her if she had decided to nip my bud before I could sprout but thank god she didn't because I'd be dead. You people are sick, you can not take life so passively, you say it's not human, well it is alive, you can't deny that, it has life, you can't deny that. Damn you people are dumb. So what if a kid has an iresponcible parent, that is a lame excuse for killing him.

If it were legal, it would be nice to abort pro lifers. Lets make age 55 the limit, any younger and we can get rid of you because your a burden. .......seriously!

reply to post by nixie_nox


EXCELLENT post You hit every single nail on the head,very insightful. Wish i could give you more than one star.

I actually had a coworker tell me once that she couldn't possibly be pregnant because she only had sex with the guy one time. I of course thought she was joking and when i said yeah right she looked at me very seriously and said "didn't you know that you can't get pregnant the first time you do it, and you have to do it more than once to get pregnant ?" What shocked me was the fact that this was not a young girl, she was a full grown woman, 26 years old.

Originally posted by Clearskies

There are LOTS of resources for those who have them!

Stupid teenagers can love their children, not abort.
Haven't you seen the classes high schoolers have taking care of an egg with a partner?

Many instincts come naturally.

There are not as many resources as are needed. What a minimum wage job at mickydees, or a couple hundred from welfare so she can raise her baby in some low income project filled with violence and drugs.


Even some smart teenagers can't love their children, some just aren't emotionally mature enough.


Ummm there's a BIG difference between taking care of an egg for a couple days for a grade in school, and taking care of a REAL LIVE BABY day in and day out And not all schools have that.


Yes many instincts come naturally, but not all of them and not to all people. And many people never aquire commom sense and no matter how much they may love their baby because they lack common sense they do things like leaving an 8 week old baby alone in a swing for almost 2 hours surrounded by animals, and the baby ends up dead.

reply to post by HIFIGUY


solution to abortion: baseball rules. 3 strikes, you're out.
pro-choice to people who need it, abusers who can't keep their legs shut have to deal with it.

reply to post by HIFIGUY


I believe the body is a vehicle for Spirit to incarnate through. When a suitable body is available, a soul incarnates into it and ultimately evolves through the experience of living in that body. If a body is denied through abortion, then that soul will simply wait for another suitable body and incarnate into that one.

I can understand how those with a different belief system would get very upset about abortion. If one equates life with the body (i.e., with flesh as opposed to spirit) then denying the body would appear to be killing life itself. But to the Christians who usually campaign against abortion and describe themselves as pro-life, didn't Jesus teach that we are spirit ('be perfect')? Didn't he advise us not to worry about the body ('be like the lillies of the field')? It's unfortunate that biblical references to reincarnation were not emphasized or accepted by the early Church (as in John the Baptist and Elijah and Jesus and Elisha)--I suppose it didn't suit their overall agenda of instilling fear and controlling the masses to teach that you might return many times.

Perhaps you are aware that some have convincingly argued (e.g., in Freakenomics) that Roe v. Wade led to the dramatic drop in crime experienced in the '90s. Mothers considering abortion often know they are not in a position to give their children a proper upbringing. Children born to such mothers may suffer poverty, stress, lack of attention, resentment... I think it makes sense to let the mother decide to have a child when she believes the time and conditions are right. If this is a free country, then mothers should have that right for themselves and their future children.

But if you believe that the unborn body is life itself--then I can understand how you'd be led to advocate for that body. So the debate really comes back to that equation of Life and Body. If you are Christian, perhaps it would help to forget what you've been told by your preacher and actually read the words of Jesus himself. Is this 'life=body' belief aligned with His words or not? If you're not sure, perhaps you should cease and desist--because you may actually be doing more harm than good. Hope this helps and doesn't offend.

reply to post by cirerr


Why does it have to be about religion all the time with you people, why can't it just be about friggin reality. I have no belief in any religions and I hate them all equally. If it is true that our spirits will just reincarnate to another vessel than that is just dandy, but sayin it and even believe it don't make it true. What if we only have one life to live? Regardless of any of that bs. A belief anyone can sink their teeth into is that life is precious, imo too precious for such a fate.

[edit on 6-8-2008 by Sheeper]

Originally posted by cirerr
reply to post by HIFIGUY

 

I believe the body is a vehicle for Spirit to incarnate through. When a suitable body is available, a soul incarnates into it and ultimately evolves through the experience of living in that body. If a body is denied through abortion, then that soul will simply wait for another suitable body and incarnate into that one.

I can understand how those with a different belief system would get very upset about abortion. If one equates life with the body (i.e., with flesh as opposed to spirit) then denying the body would appear to be killing life itself. But to the Christians who usually campaign against abortion and describe themselves as pro-life, didn't Jesus teach that we are spirit ('be perfect')? Didn't he advise us not to worry about the body ('be like the lillies of the field')? It's unfortunate that biblical references to reincarnation were not emphasized or accepted by the early Church (as in John the Baptist and Elijah and Jesus and Elisha)--I suppose it didn't suit their overall agenda of instilling fear and controlling the masses to teach that you might return many times.

Perhaps you are aware that some have convincingly argued (e.g., in Freakenomics) that Roe v. Wade led to the dramatic drop in crime experienced in the '90s. Mothers considering abortion often know they are not in a position to give their children a proper upbringing. Children born to such mothers may suffer poverty, stress, lack of attention, resentment... I think it makes sense to let the mother decide to have a child when she believes the time and conditions are right. If this is a free country, then mothers should have that right for themselves and their future children.

But if you believe that the unborn body is life itself--then I can understand how you'd be led to advocate for that body. So the debate really comes back to that equation of Life and Body. If you are Christian, perhaps it would help to forget what you've been told by your preacher and actually read the words of Jesus himself. Is this 'life=body' belief aligned with His words or not? If you're not sure, perhaps you should cease and desist--because you may actually be doing more harm than good. Hope this helps and doesn't offend.

I absolutely love this post, since it brings together everything everyone has said here in a rational and concise manner. Too bad I can only give you one star for it.

Let's just go down the nature side of it as well, since I see a few people attempting to to turn what I said on the last page around to suit them. Tell me, those of you who say because someone has done it for fun and then had an accident/weren't educated about sex in the first MUST have it now, have you studied animal behaviour at all? Watched a documentary even?

Let me tell you something, if a mother in the wild is unable to care for her babies, she wil do one of two things: kill or abandon them. She won't let them grow up, because she cannot care for them so she does it not for herself but for them. They will have poor quality of life and/or will die young because the mother neglected them because she could not care for them. Occasionally you will see a mother within the same species/herd adopt them but that is actually quite rare.

Unfortunately the same thing often goes with humans, if the mother cannot care for the children, she will either end up neglecting them (especially in cases of a young and/or unprepared mother) or put them up for adoption. However there are too many neglecting, unprepared and unfit parents to justify keeping every single unwanted pregnancy in the world and forcing it to come to term. It is much more humane to end the suffering before it can begin, rather then force it on three individuals (two if you don't include the father, which you SHOULD, ESPECIALLY if you're Pro-Life)

[edit on 6-8-2008 by ShiningSabrewolf]

I'd also like to point out another thing, at this point in time there are 7.2 BILLION people in the world, and we are running out of food. A year or so so ago there were 6 billion people in the world, and we had food enough to feed everyone plus a little extra which could/should have gone to places where it was needed.

Add the extra 7 million people who might have been born if it weren't for abortion, then we'd be in a far greater crisis right now, then factor in everyone who might have an unwanted pregnancy in the next year, say half the population of right now is not educated enough or unable to obtain birth control, and just over half the worlds population is female. That makes one quarter of the worlds current population having unwanted pregancies, which would add the extra strain of 2.3 billion people on the worlds food supply. That's 10.2 BILLION people in the next year alone. We will all be starving by then, and the entire human population with either die out or be reduced to living in small tribes in a few isolated places again.

Please try to think of the bigger picture

But hey, since I'm Pro-CHOICE, you Pro-Lifers do whatever you like with your unborn children. It is your CHOICE after all, which is a wonderful thing in itself. Just don't try and push it onto anyone else and limit their CHOICES. You don't have to get an abortion if you don't want to, it's not like those who support it are trying to force you to kill all your unborn children.

[edit on 6-8-2008 by ShiningSabrewolf]

reply to post by chise61


What do you think crisis pregnancy centers provide?
clothes for the Mom and baby, diapers, job searches and MUCH more. ( Including free counceling, sonograms, parenting skills training and adoption resources)

Wic, medicaid(which most times is BETTER than regular insurance.) and food stamps provide basic necessities.
There are other ministries that help pay bills, furniture and more food.
That's what most churches DO.

Forced abortions ARE happening in China and other places.
Time
Even in New Jersey
New U.N. report challenges overpopulation myth

he latest argument concerns the environmental effects of population growth, including pollution, habitat destruction and the extinction of species. The report contends that population growth may contribute to some of these problems, especially fisheries depletion and water contamination, but "In general, population growth appears to be much less important as a driving force of such problems than is economic growth and technology." Even global warming will be ".mainly due to modes of production, not to the size, growth and distribution of population." Consumption patterns among developed countries with declining populations also have a detrimental impact on the environment.

[edit on 6-8-2008 by Clearskies]

[edit on 6-8-2008 by Clearskies]

reply to post by Clearskies


Clearskies, whilst I respect your viewpoint on abortion the source material from the UN you provided was from 2001, and whilst I agree the other two are extremely disturbing (I don't support forcing anything on anyone) I'd just like to point out that the reason for the ones in the Time is due to slave labour trade, which is horrific, and China has never been known to advocate an individiuals rights.

I'd also like to point you to a few recent articlea by New Scientist on how the population is overburdening the planet:

Last Great Land Grab

Logging Threat

Overfishing threatens corals

Diet and Energy Crises

[edit on 6-8-2008 by ShiningSabrewolf]

Originally posted by Daz3d-n-Confus3d

Originally posted by jtown
leave these people alone its there choice it has nothing to do with any of you and no one should be able to tell some one else what they can or can not do with there body,some of these people will have to live with this guilt for the rest of there life and they sure as hell dont need you lot pointing the finger

No disrespect to you but I have a question. I am not weighing in on either side of this argument because it is obviously a stalement argument.
If there is nothing morally wrong with abortion, then why does the person live in guilt?

Not all "live in guilt," FYI. And the guilt some feel has a great deal to do with the fact that they were taught that it is "wrong." Kids used to feel guilty for masturbating (some still do, because they have been taught that it is "wrong"). So finding some that feel guilty does not mean there is anything inherently wrong with what they are feeling guilty about.

"Guilt" is something a person chooses, based on their perspective.