Who is the real killer in abortion? The parent or the politicians

Originally posted by Ciphor
I feel so sorry for some of you, I truly do. I don't mean to come off a jack*** here but you are ignorant. You have never felt the kick of a fetus, never heard it's racing heartbeat, or watched one move around in an ultrasound. It is alive believe me.

No name needed I hope something changes in you before you commit such an act. I challenge you to go into a pregnancy ward with your GF and watch an ultrasound. I don't think you would feel the same as you do right now. At least I hope not.

I would never feel a kick or hear a heartbeat...the fetus would not stand a chance of making it that far! And please mind your own business and quit minding mine! Why don't you go silently pray for me instead!

[edit on 4-8-2008 by no name needed]

"are you fetus mind readers?"

No name needed...

I'm not a dog mind reader either but you think if I went and shot my neighbors dog it would be ok? You lack logical insight, please find some.

If your parents didn't want you, you would rather not have been born at all? I don't think so. Go find a argument that has 2 legs to stand on. Your speaking rubish.

Why don't you address my points that are key.

Your saying I can stab a baby in the head before it has taken a breath while delivering it, and no crime has taken place?

It makes sense to charge someone with murder who causes death to a fetus but not murder who takes there own fetuses life?

And mind my own business? You are the one who brought your personal life into this...now when I apply it you want the discussion to end? You again have failed at using logic. Oh well. Clearly no sense debating with this one, he doesn't know how.

[edit on 4-8-2008 by Ciphor]

[edit on 4-8-2008 by Ciphor]

Originally posted by Ciphor
"are you fetus mind readers?"

No name needed...

I'm not a dog mind reader either but you think if I went and shot my neighbors dog it would be ok? Your lack logical insight, please find some.

If your parents didn't want you would rather not have been born at all? I don't think so. Go find a argument that has 2 legs to stand on. Your speaking rubish.

Why don't you address my points that are key.

Your saying I can stab a baby in the head before it has taken a breath while delivering it, and no crime has taken place?

It makes sense to charge someone with murder who causes death to a fetus but not murder who takes there own fetuses life?

Your logic is misplaced. I'm not going around trying to abort my neighbor's baby...It would be mine getting aborted and perfectly legal....and yes, if I wanted to shoot my dog, it would be my choice as well and perfectly legal....but NOT if it was my neighbors....but I wouldn't shoot my neighbors dog, nor would I tell them to get an abortion...that's their business...much like it is my business if I choose to do so!

If I was aborted, then I would not know any different...so, I would not have ever been given the opportunity to care...so how is that argument logical?

When you take someone else's fetus, you are charged w/murder because the assumption is that the fetus would have been born healthy otherwise and it WAS WANTED. If I choose to abort my own, that is my choice because it is NOT WANTED.

Got any other KEY points? Because I can spend all day knocking down false logic! Especially towards some righteous judgmental individual that is going to try to tell me that I should not have the right to abortion.


[edit on 4-8-2008 by no name needed]

Solo1

"Stop mandating what other people can and can not do."

I am not religious. And feel this is wrong, so please don't bundle all people who appose this into a "religious" group.

I am not debating a persons right to choose or mandate what a person can or cannot do. As a mater of fact I am fighting for that right harder then you I believe.

I am debating whether this is a life form or just a parasite as some here are saying. If it is a life form, heart beat and brain activity in all. then it should be given the right to choose as well. And I don't think it will choose to die.

Here is a flaw in you peoples argument of a bad life if the parents don't want it.

Currently there is well over a 2-3 year wait on new born babies to be adopted. The amount of parents who can't give birth far out numbers the amount of new born babies available for adoption.

None of your points make sense, none of them. Do your homework and bring to me a legitimate reason to terminate these lives.

Originally posted by Ciphor
... But A lot of people feel these are not "parasites" and are sparks of life.

And ya know what... If you have an unwanted pregnancy, you may choose to handle it as you see fit based on your perception. I, however, perceive things differently, and I really don't want anyone else forcing their perception and its rules on me. So if I have an unwanted pregnancy, I want to have the choice to handle it as I see fit based on my perception.

In truth, those who call themselves "pro-life" are not. If they were, they would be adopting and LOVING the souls that they forced to that first breath; and, they don't want others to have a choice based on the others' perceptions. Thus, they are more accurately called...

Anti-Choice.

For those of us who feel this is out right murder, we are not going to sit on our hands and shut up. It's sick. Oh so it has a cord in it's stomach? So what. It thinks. Eats. Has a soul if you believe in that kind of thing.

About that soul thing... How do you know? It is counter to what the Biblical God says... And a number of other Gods, as well. They pretty much agree that the soul enters the body at first breath. Do you dispute the words of any or all of these Gods? The Bible DOES say that without a soul, it (whatever "it" may be) is NOT human. So a fetus is soulless, and therefore not human. And murder is only for humans...else we would be giving the death penalty to all farmers who slaughtered the pigs for our bacon.

The argument of "pro-choice" and the right to choose at all is a moot point. Because to make this point your saying I have a right to choose to get on a bus and decapitate someone and eat there flesh!!!

WTF??? Where did THAT come from? How do you equate a stopping of a process towards a vessel for a soul at first breath with the taking of the vessel for a soul already incarnate!?!

Oh, man. That is a twisted view.

Right to choose right? Wrong. When it's in regards to a life and considering another being whether it be human, fetus, or animal.

Ohhhhhh. I see. Are you involved with PETA, perhaps? A vegan by conscience? And you would force your perspective on others because...?

You lose your 100% right to choose. you must now consider that this is another living creature with rights of it's own. And an inability to speak or defend itself is not an appropriate defense at all for whoever wants to go there. My dog can't talk but he doesn't want to die, promise you that.

These are your perceptions, and by all means, kill nothing! Not the ants that you might step on, not the bacteria in your mouth with mouthwash, not the pig, not the [fill in the blank]. By all means. But what is it that makes your perception better than mine if I want to eat pig and rinse my mouth out with Listerine? Or rather... what makes your perception, which is best for YOU, BEST for me over the perception I have?

What gives YOU the right?

By your standards your saying that if my wife is in labor, a doctor while removing the baby from her vagina, can shove a knife into the top of his head before he takes his first breath and the cord is cut, and not be charged with a crime? Some of you are just down right insane. You need to re-think your standards.

By my view, that would be barbaric and avoidable with planning. But it is not murder until it has a soul. And according to many a God, the soul arrives at first breath.

And just an FYI. People get charged for murder when they cause death to fetuses of pregnant woman. How the hell can you make that possible but allow a person to willingly kill there own?

Yes they do. And I think that is wrong. They should be sued for emotional damages, but murder? I think not.

What a sick system we are brainwashed into. Sex is not for fun you ignorant pies. It's to produce the fruit of the tree.

Says who?

If you can't handle this responsibility then TOUGH. Time to grow up. If the child has a hard life then he has a hard life, he deserves the chance to make it just as your father did and you did.

Say who? You are free to choose to keep any unwanted pregnancies you find yourself with.

This isn't a religious debate. It's a humanitarian debate, about killing a life.

Again, what makes you Lord (Lady)? What gives YOU the right to choose for ME?

[edit on 8/4/2008 by Amaterasu]

Originally posted by Ciphor
The amount of parents who can't give birth far out numbers the amount of new born babies available for adoption.

Assuming all of these sterile parents are seeking adoption, I am calling you out on this...please provide legitimate statistics to back this up!

[edit on 4-8-2008 by no name needed]

reply to post by no name needed


False logic? ha.

Your saying that life is determined by law as a desire to have that life around? So if I don't desire to have you around you are not a life and I can end you? Nice logic.

Doesn't mater if your the parent or not. This can be applied further on the "parent" thing however, example. If I decide at my daughters age of 7 that I no longer want her around that means she ceases to be life and I can shoot her? So now it's not a question of breathing it's first breath, or having a cord attached to the mom, you have now flipped the coin and decided it's based on a desire to have the life around? Dude...I'm definitely done talking with you. You make no sense what so over and move from one insane statement to another to suite your needs. Pick a point and stick to it please. Makes things confusing when you switch up your reason mid debate.

Also I never implied anything about shooting your dog as being legal. I said right. You think that would be ok? Says a lot about you really

Originally posted by Ciphor
I feel so sorry for some of you, I truly do. I don't mean to come off a jack*** here but you are ignorant. You have never felt the kick of a fetus, never heard it's racing heartbeat, or watched one move around in an ultrasound. It is alive believe me.

No name needed I hope something changes in you before you commit such an act. I challenge you to go into a pregnancy ward with your GF and watch an ultrasound. I don't think you would feel the same as you do right now. At least I hope not.

On the contrary, dear. I surely have. And I still have a different perspective than you do.

Originally posted by Amaterasu
About that soul thing... How do you know? It is counter to what the Biblical God says... And a number of other Gods, as well. They pretty much agree that the soul enters the body at first breath. Do you dispute the words of any or all of these Gods? The Bible DOES say that without a soul, it (whatever "it" may be) is NOT human. So a fetus is soulless, and therefore not human. And murder is only for humans...else we would be giving the death penalty to all farmers who slaughtered the pigs for our bacon.

Here we go AGAIN! Bringing religion into a legal issue. Have you heard of the separation of church & state? Your religious beliefs can not and should not come into play on this issue.

My religion says ABORT, ABORT, ABORT....so now I have balanced your argument.

reply to post by no name needed


adoptionservices.org...

The waiting time, from the time of your Registration through the placement and adoption, for a Russian or other Eastern European child is approximately 6-12 months. It is approximately 12 to 24 months for a Chinese child, and approximately 4-8 months for a Guatemalan child. For other countries it varies depending on the country.

I've adopted a 2 year old boy and a 7 year old girl. The reality is it's more like 2-3 years currently. Don't try and call me out kiddo, I've done my homework on this mater, you have not, you will look a fool.

reply to post by deadbang


Couldnt have said it better myself. My mother is german and i have heard her say thats whats wrong with this country, that everyone tries to force their views on others.

Originally posted by Ciphor
I am debating whether this is a life form or just a parasite as some here are saying. If it is a life form, heart beat and brain activity in all. then it should be given the right to choose as well. And I don't think it will choose to die.

But you don't read minds and are projecting YOUR perspective onto the fetus.

Here is a flaw in you peoples argument of a bad life if the parents don't want it.

Currently there is well over a 2-3 year wait on new born babies to be adopted. The amount of parents who can't give birth far out numbers the amount of new born babies available for adoption.

FYI... That's a waiting list for WHITE babies. The list for non-white babies is non-existent. That's because there are tens of thousands of non-white babies up for adoption and living in foster homes (which are very often worse than living in a state institution!).

None of your points make sense, none of them. Do your homework and bring to me a legitimate reason to terminate these lives.

Over-population...
The fact that virtually all sociopaths and psychopaths were unwanted, abused and/or neglected...
Society is worse off on the whole with unwanted, neglected and abused individuals...
Happiness overall is increased without unwanted children in this Universe...

Oh, and BTW... None of our points make sense...TO YOU. But from our point of view, they make a great deal of sense.

Originally posted by Ciphor
False logic? ha.

Your saying that life is determined by law as a desire to have that life around? So if I don't desire to have you around you are not a life and I can end you? Nice logic.

Well, If I was a fetus inside of you (Ewwwwww), then your argument MIGHT be valid; however, it is still misplaced!

Doesn't mater if your the parent or not.

Apparently it does, as that's the law...I have the right and always will! It's not your right to prevent abortion...it's only your right to CHOOSE nto to abort YOUR OWN.

This can be applied further on the "parent" thing however, example. If I decide at my daughters age of 7 that I no longer want her around that means she ceases to be life and I can shoot her?

nice try on this stretch...your 7 y.o. I'm assuming has a voice, she has been born and is a human being w/rights given at BIRTH. She has been declared wanted by not being aborted. At this point it would be murder because the law defines it that way.

So now it's not a question of breathing it's first breath, or having a cord attached to the mom, you have now flipped the coin and decided it's based on a desire to have the life around? Dude...I'm definitely done talking with you. You make no sense what so over and move from one insane statement to another to suite your needs. Pick a point and stick to it please. Makes things confusing when you switch up your reason mid debate.

It's not about 1st breath or not wanting life around. It's about the choice of deciding if/when you choose to have a child and the right to not bring a child into this world.

Also I never implied anything about shooting your dog as being legal. I said right. You think that would be ok? Says a lot about you really

No, you didn't mention my dog...you mentioned my neighbors in a failed attempt to draw a comparison to abortion...and no, I couldn't and wouldn't dare shoot my neighbor's dog, nor attempt to abort my neighbors baby...that is NOT what PRO CHOICE is about. Also, I never said I would do that. I simply said it is my right and it is not illegal.

I think I ame done agruing with you, as you are the one lacking logic here!

[edit on 4-8-2008 by no name needed]

To answer the op for those that consider abortion murder, then no the politicians are not guity, the mother, father and all medical personel involved in the precedure are guilty. No doctor is forced to perform an abortion they do it by choice, same with the nurses that assist.

Now as far as anti abortion vs pro choice each side has there beliefs valid or not. The choice however ultimately belongs to the woman and nobody has the right to tell her what to do with her own body, or what moral decision to make based on thier own morals. A woman must make that decision based on her own beliefs,not society's beliefs, based on wether or not she feels that she is capable of raising a child, not the belief of some that feel that she should be forced to have a child because she made a mistake and must now pay for it.

The arguement of there are so many people out there that can't have children and would be such good parents is null and void due to the amount of children that are sitting around waiting to be adopted. Although there are many people wanting to be parents, there are many that will not adopt a child of mixed race, a different race than their own, one with medical problems, or disabilities, or children above a certain age. When the anti-abortion people can guaranty that 100 % of all unwanted infants will be adopted by good parents then maybe there will no longer be a need for abortion.

I've seen a good amount of people placing the blame solely on the mother, what about the father ? So far i haven't seen our society come up with a working solution to deadbeat dads. Sure they sometimes can be pulled into court and be issued a court order to pay child support, but in most cases that is a joke. Usually the amount of support ordered isn't enough to really help with raising the child sometimes it isn't even enough to pay for daycare so the mother can work. The usual amount is 20% of his net pay, some get away with less than that, but the mother is forced to contribute way more than 20% of her income to raising the child.

Then we have the fathers who quit their jobs and work for cash so they don't have to pay support because they have no verifiable income. Also while a man can be pulled into court and made to pay support they can not be made to play an active role in the child's life, or even made to give the child his last name. A child needs both parents, a father plays a very important role in a child's life. So no nobody has the right to tell a woman that she must carry a baby to term and raise that child, while society still allows the father to get off scott free.

For those that base thier belief on religion saying that it is murder and God says murder is a sin, remember that he also gave us free will to make our own choices, therefore the choice is left up to each individual, and it is his place to judge no one else's.

I was 17 when i got pregnant and i was scared to death, didn't even tell my family till i was in my sixth month. I have two sons both adults now, which i had to raise totally by myself due to their father being a deadbeat dad, i also have two beautiful grandchildren. I was a damn good mother, but it was very hard to raise my boys by myself, and it was hard for them to grow up without a father, we did without a lot. But we made it through and they are both turned into men that i can be proud of, however that is not always the case. There are too many cases of child neglect and abuse by parents that have unwanted children, and too many cases of children living in poverty to justify making abortion illegal.

I could never have an abortion, except in a case of rape, or medical necessity, however i fully support the right of every woman to make that choice for herself, every woman has to make her choice based on what's right for her and nobody else. Although i must say that while i agree with a woman's right to have an abortion it is only in the circumstance of terminating one pregnancy because she knows that she is not ready and will not be a good parent. I am strongly opposed to those that would have multiple abortions as a method of birth control. I chose to have both of my children and have never for one minute regreted that choice, but i am grateful that the choice was mine to make and the decision was not forced upon me.

Originally posted by no name needed

Originally posted by Amaterasu
About that soul thing... How do you know? It is counter to what the Biblical God says... And a number of other Gods, as well. They pretty much agree that the soul enters the body at first breath. Do you dispute the words of any or all of these Gods? The Bible DOES say that without a soul, it (whatever "it" may be) is NOT human. So a fetus is soulless, and therefore not human. And murder is only for humans...else we would be giving the death penalty to all farmers who slaughtered the pigs for our bacon.

Here we go AGAIN! Bringing religion into a legal issue. Have you heard of the separation of church & state? Your religious beliefs can not and should not come into play on this issue.

My religion says ABORT, ABORT, ABORT....so now I have balanced your argument.

LOL! I am not religious at all, but most who would force their perspectives on me are. I use it to point out that if they are basing their views on religion, that their God likely told them already that a fetus is not human.

I think you have me confused with another poster or something. I amd PRO-choice, not ANTI-choice.

reply to post by Amaterasu


Sorry, I did not intend to label you anti-choice. I was merely commenting on some of the content of your post. If that should have been directed at another poster, then my mistake. Apology extended

reply to post by Amaterasu


Your full of spam lol. Please less spam, and less picking apart, more thought out points. You made no points that I can detect. but just for a laugh I'll try and respond to this.

I want to have the choice to handle it as I see fit based on my perception.

Again, as I have already stated, I am not debating your right to choose something. I am debating the fetuses rights. You say it is not a life and has none. I say his beating heart and thinking brain is a life. What is your argument as to why it's not a life? Was it the chord or the breathing thing?

About that soul thing... How do you know? It is counter to what the Biblical God says... And a number of other Gods, as well. They pretty much agree that the soul enters the body at first breath.

I ask that you please read my posts and respond appropriately.
I am not religious and have said I feel this is a humanitarian debate. I also made sure to say "if you believe in a soul" as that is not a fact. That is why I added that. Way to miss the point. I see a trend of this with you.

WTF??? Where did THAT come from? How do you equate a stopping of a process towards a vessel for a soul at first breath with the taking of the vessel for a soul already incarnate!?!

So your saying you are religious and believe in a soul? I never said I did, I simple implied if one does. I said I'm not religious. What I am saying is they are both murder. Both need oxygen, both eat, both have beating hearts, both think. My right to choose to decapitate someone on a bus or decapitate someone in a womb I feel are no different. Try and stick to the point. You wander to far off into laa laa land in your replies and miss what is being said.

Ohhhhhh. I see. Are you involved with PETA, perhaps? A vegan by conscience? And you would force your perspective on others because...?

This is just pathetic. We are not discussing the point of survival. I eat cheeseburgers. We are not debating eating babies for survival. Please, I beg you, stay on point.

These are your perceptions, and by all means, kill nothing! Not the ants that you might step on, not the bacteria in your mouth with mouthwash, not the pig, not the [fill in the blank]. By all means. But what is it that makes your perception better than mine if I want to eat pig and rinse my mouth out with Listerine? Or rather... what makes your perception, which is best for YOU, BEST for me over the perception I have? What gives YOU the right?

I guess this is a point, since it addresses what we deem a life form eligible for emotional consideration. I think the line is drawn on the creatures ability to display emotion and feel as well as a persons ability to detect this emotion and these feelings. Since we know this is a human baby and our brains are far more advanced then other creatures we consider eligible for this then I would say this is a weak argument. You are comparing the feelings and emotions of a bacteria to the unborn fetus of the most intellectually advanced creature on this planet.

Again, what makes you Lord (Lady)? What gives YOU the right to choose for ME?

Once again we find you off in laa laa land. Try and keep up ok? I am not lord. What I am saying is neither are you. What gives YOU the right to choose for HIM? I feel he is a life and you can't choose for him. You feel it is not and you are choosing for yourself. Now please join the actual discussion I am discussing. What criteria is it that you feel this is not a life form and has no right to a life.

Over-population...

Alright, so your saying that due to over-population this is acceptable. Well why then can't I go decapitate you? this also lowers the population? Wanted? Unwanted? I can find a thousand unwanted adults to cut up right now. This point again makes no sense to me.

I'm saying it's a life. Whether human, animal, or fetus. It has rights. Cord or no cord. Air or no air. It thinks, has a heart beat, and believe it or not, I believe IS human. Has 5 fingers 5 toes, all the organs, eyes, ears, mouth, kicks moves arms, reacts to it's environment etc.

Try again. This time address my question. What is it that you have decided determines it to not be LIFE worthy of a right to live

And please. Don't bring anymore "law" into the debate. Bush can legally imprison you without trial for the rest of your life by calling you a terrorist. Doesn't make it right. I am not discussing law, laws are jacked up. I'm discussing right or wrong.

Ummm not to blow out your fire or anything but fact is that the aborted "child" as you call it isn't actually alive yet; so in essence your not killing anything your mearly interrupting something from reaching it's potential. So in fact there is no killer in this situation and therefor no reason for this post.

Abortion should be legal all over the world!

Liberal to the abortion laws, modernize them.. For various reasons woman can have not to give birth to a child.

[edit on 4/8/2008 by Storm_Indigochild]