Who is the real killer in abortion? The parent or the politicians

Originally posted by Clearskies
Stupid teenagers can love their children, not abort.

Ahhh. And you will be the one enforcing this love, then? You have a way to force teens to love (and properly take care of!) babies they didn't want in the first place?

Mmmm. I'd like to see your methods.

Haven't you seen the classes high schoolers have taking care of an egg with a partner?

Sure, some few get these classes. But the percentage is very low - especially in poverty-stricken areas, where money is too scarce to by current science and history books, let alone fund sex education.

Many instincts come naturally.

But clearly loving another does not necessarily happen. Especially if the parents were neglected and/or abused as children themselves. Else there would be no such thing as neglect and abuse of children.

Neglect and abuse often leads to sociopathy (and sometimes psychopathy) which is an emotional dysfunction which makes one incapable of empathy, love, or caring about others.

So how are you going to force these people who are incapable of love to love to love their unwanted babies...?

Originally posted by Sheeper
You know my life hasn't been so great. I never knew my father and my mother didn't have family where she bore me, she made minimum wage and raised me in a poor area, I'm sure I was a real burden to her and she has let me know in her own way from time to time. Things would of been so much better for her if she had decided to nip my bud before I could sprout but thank god she didn't because I'd be dead.

Or your Spirit would have found another vessel. [shrug]

You people are sick,

In your opinion, of course.

you can not take life so passively,

In your opinion...

you say it's not human, well it is alive, you can't deny that, it has life, you can't deny that.

And so do the cows we kill to eat, the ants we spray poison on, the mosquitoes we slap, ad infinitum.

Damn you people are dumb.

In...your opinion...again.

So what if a kid has an iresponcible parent, that is a lame excuse for killing him.

Um... Sure, if he has been born, taken breath, you're right. But there is no "him" to kill prior to the first breath - in my opinion.

Originally posted by Sheeper
reply to post by cirerr

 

Why does it have to be about religion all the time with you people, why can't it just be about friggin reality. I have no belief in any religions and I hate them all equally. If it is true that our spirits will just reincarnate to another vessel than that is just dandy, but sayin it and even believe it don't make it true. What if we only have one life to live? Regardless of any of that bs. A belief anyone can sink their teeth into is that life is precious, imo too precious for such a fate.

Nor does denying it make it false. "Friggin" reality is that neither side can prove their position, and so...

You handle your unwanted pregnancies as you see fit and stay out of the lives of others in that regard. That is the nature of freedom. To do otherwise is anti-freedom.

Once definitive proof comes along, THEN we can act accordingly.

Originally posted by Clearskies
New U.N. report challenges overpopulation myth

he latest argument concerns the environmental effects of population growth, including pollution, habitat destruction and the extinction of species. The report contends that population growth may contribute to some of these problems, especially fisheries depletion and water contamination, but "In general, population growth appears to be much less important as a driving force of such problems than is economic growth and technology." Even global warming will be ".mainly due to modes of production, not to the size, growth and distribution of population." Consumption patterns among developed countries with declining populations also have a detrimental impact on the environment.

LOL! Yeah, the UN is a trustworthy source of information.

Forcing a woman to go through with an unwanted pregnancy is equally as wrong as forcing a woman to have an unwanted abortion.

Originally posted by Jezus
Forcing a woman to go through with an unwanted pregnancy is equally as wrong as forcing a woman to have an unwanted abortion.

Indeed forcing a women to continue a pregnancy against her will would be very unchristian anyway as the foundation of the religion is based on having free will.

[edit on 7-8-2008 by riley]

Well the posted question is an interesting one.

The obvious answer is the Doctor or who ever is actually removing the fetus. But there are many accessories to the crime intended.

The mother for being there.

The father that didn't want to help.

The nurse for helping.

The person who loaned the mother the money.

The institution that is letting them do it.

The cab driver for driving the mother to the clinic.

Lets take it a step further.

The suppliers that made the surgical equipment.

The company that makes rubber gloves.

The company who made the car that drove the mother to the clinic.

God for not stopping it and he could have.

The government for saying it is ok to preform the operation.

The dog for not loving the mother enough and the bird for not singing well enough.

I could go on, but I think you get the point. The point being that it is the Doctor that is actually preforming the action.

But then you did say who is the real killer, right?

Killing is a perspective (clarify, is it killing or murder that you are talking about?). I know that sounds weird, but there are those that believe there is a reason for everything. If the soul that was to live doesn't because of an abortion, well maybe they weren't suppose to be here at at all. If they are meant to be here they will simply come here in another baby. Killing implys and ending, and none of us ever end.

It's all how one looks at it and what one believes.

Originally posted by Cowgirlstraitup7
There are many instances were a person who kills a pregnant woman gets charged with two murders. Case in point, Scott Peterson who killed his pregnant wife.

Excellent example of selective law. In the case of homicide, its two people, and in the case of abortion, the fetus is considered not human yet?

Hypocrisy even in the law.

I have read through the many points listed and I value everyones perspective.

The larger issue at hand is perhaps coming to an understanding in the the long term hazards that come with irresponsible intercourse.

With recreational sex, the death of the fetus is incidental. What about appropriate relations and proper timing? Abstinence and the understanding of its fruit, versus the potential for hazard to an unborn in the case of the other.

Is it supposed to be sexual intercourse and the non incidental removal of the fetus should pregnancy occur? Like continual approved russian roulette? Should that be societies SOP? ( Standard Operating Procedure ) What is more noble?

What about those that are not in the position to raise a child. Is having children only something the rich will be able to do one day? As someone said, the issues that are creating an abortion environment need to be addressed.

In the end, its about caring. As I care about all of you, whether I know you or not. I truly wish you no ill will or harm. And in saying that, I also wish that one would not partake in acts that may jeopardize another or lead to an uncomfortable outcome resulting in a very difficult decision.

That getting over the physical passion of the moment in circumstance that are surely out of wed lock and not conducive to the raising of a child, that one should have a moment of pause for thought. If your not ready to be a parent, and partake in a love and labor that is life long, then perhaps the act you are performing is not a labor of love but one of lust only.

Two people who love each other, who together form one flesh, and are bound at the heart, do not abort that which Love has gifted them. And should they contemplate it, the price tag over a life time will be one of sorrow for the bill will surely come.

Like the seeds that produce life, so does the seed of killing ( or abortion, or w/e the term you wish to use ) produce an offspring, whether you recognize it or not. That action comes back to produce a tree like the one that is typing to you, for I do not speak from lack of experience. I speak from 20 years of carrying my own experience, and a decision from which there is no relief. My 13 year old daughter who I love dearly sits behind me as I write this. She has brought happiness to my life like I could not imagines. She is a constant reminder of someone else, that could have been.

Peace


[edit on 8-8-2008 by HIFIGUY]

Ok, here is my problem with the whole "abortion issue". It was originally illegal in the US until the 60's or 70's. After huge amounts of out-cry from people and the fact that women were dying in back allies and going to places like mexico to get abortions. So the US made it legal. Now, years later people want it illegal again. Thats what I dont get. Its like make up you F-ing mind. Ok, I do support abortion, I belevie in choice. I love the fact that people who are pro-life forget the people who NEED abortions:

Rape Victims
Medical Reasons
Young teens/girls
Child Abuse victims

If abortion was Illegal all those people would be screwed.

Becuase of pro-life people we cant use fetus stem-cells that may save thousands.

[edit on 30-8-2008 by The_Jackal94]

Originally posted by deadbang
But I also do not agree with you calling people who advocate abortion "murderers"...from here "for anyone pondering the murder of a child is guilty of the death of that child."

Would you agree that killing a week old new born baby was murder?

But a baby who's head is about to emerge from the birth canal that has a needle driven into it's skull is not being murdered?

Please elaborate.

Life is about choices...we make them and then live with the consequences...

Yes, and the choice to have unprotected sex which led to being pregnant is a choice that results in consequences. The act of getting an abortion rather than being inconvenienced for a few months is an attempt to absolve one's self from the consequences of the choice.

I don't get the trade off here.

A few months of a woman being inconvenienced by a pregnancy brought own by her own choices vs. an entire life of another human being being sacraficed?

reply to post by jamie83



Not all pregnancies are a result of unprotected sex. No form of birth control is foolproof.


Your not talking about a just a couple months of inconvience for a woman, every pregnancy carries risks to the mother. The delivery is also very hard and can be life threatening for a woman. Pregnancy is very hard on a woman's body, it takes two complete years just for a women's uterus to go back to it's normal state after birth. If the baby is not getting enough calcium it will be pulled from the woman's body to give to the baby, depleting the women's bones of calcium, etc.

There are complications that can arise during pregancy such as Toxemia, etc, that can kill the mother and the baby. Some women can not dialate properly which results in the need of a cesarian, which is risky for the mother and the child.

All these issues and more are things that can effect a women during pregancy, which is why no one has the right to tell a woman that she must carry a baby full term and give birth. It is way more than a couple of months of inconvience to a woman. And then of course you have a life long responsibility to that child afterwards, which some men seem to be able to walk away from without hesitation.

reply to post by jamie83

A few months of a woman being inconvenienced by a pregnancy brought own by her own choices vs. an entire life of another human being being sacraficed?

I suppose you are talking about the mother turning over the baby for adoption once it is born. Otherwise, there is certainly more than a "few months of being inconvenienced." Now chise61 has already layed out some very good points that you seem to have overlooked. But there are a few more you should consider as well.

First, you are assuming that the baby will be healthy and will be adopted. Have you ever been to a group-home? Do you realize the rampant abuse that goes on in those places? I would not wish that on anyone. If a woman can not take care of a child herself, she has no business having one.

In fact, there are far too many women having children that should have had an abortion. They neglect their children, and suck up public resources in the meantime. I was in a medical clinic for poor people the other day. The place was filled with people who didn't speak English, and pregnant white trash with a a kid or two already.

And then what happens to these kids who are neglected and abused when they grow up? They go to prison, so we can just keep on paying for them to live. Brilliant.

Did you ever stop to think that perhaps the decision to have an abortion is the most painful act of selflessness and mercy that a woman will ever have to make?

Originally posted by Clearskies
reply to post by chise61

 

What do you think crisis pregnancy centers provide?
clothes for the Mom and baby, diapers, job searches and MUCH more. ( Including free counceling, sonograms, parenting skills training and adoption resources)

Wic, medicaid(which most times is BETTER than regular insurance.) and food stamps provide basic necessities.
There are other ministries that help pay bills, furniture and more food.
That's what most churches DO.

Sorry i wasn't ignoring your reply, i seemed to have skipped a whole page and missed your reply.


While these places may provide some help, they do not provide enough help for a young single mother.

Job searches are helpful, however if the mother is uneducated and unskilled they can only provide so much help. Uneducated and unskilled mothers are lucky if they get a minimum wage job which is not enough to support a child on, and it certainly doesn't provide enough money to pay for decent reliable day care.

You can give a person all the parenting skills training that is available, but if she is not ready to be a mother it's not going to accomplish anything. For example if a 16 year old girl gets pregnant and is forced to have the baby even though she may love the child after birth, she will more than likely start to resent the child when she spends all her time at work to provide for the child and the rest of her time at home taking care of the child while her friends are out having fun.

Adoption resources are available, but some women are not able to give a child up after carrying it full term and giving birth. There are also times when the child would have a hard time being adopted out. Check and see just how many children are waiting to be adopted right now.

Wic is only a supplement and only while the mother is pregnant and until the child is five years old, what happens when the child turns six and the WIC is no longer available.

Food stamps are a joke, from what i just looked up starting in October in Illinois a mother with one child can recieve a maximum amount of $323. in food stamps a month. it is not possible to feed two people (one of which is a growing child with higher nutritional needs) a well balanced nutricious (spelling ?) diet.

Church pantries while they try to help do not provide much food to people.

Do you have any idea how demoralizing it can be for women to have to go to public aide, WIC, churches, etc so that their children can have the basic necessities ? How demoralizing it can be for the children growing up in these conditions. And most children that are on public aide do not even have basic necessities.

You're advocating women having children that they can not financially take care of, with the expectation of receiving help from many organizations. I'm sorry i can't agree with that, if a woman knows that she can't take care of a child she needs to be allowed to have choices.


I do not agree with forced abortion (just as i do not agree with forcing a woman to have a child) however that is for another thread.

reply to post by chise61


De-moralizing?
Do you know how de-moralizing it is to see little babies and KNOW you killed yours!!!?
To provide for your child, (or children) you do what you have to do!
I worked at dairy queen until last year and I'm 37, I also took in children to babysit.
Sometimes you can't get new clothes or your hair done.
Or go fun places.
It's called Motherhood and even 14 year old girls have done it in the past.
You shouldn't be having sex if you don't want the 'gift' that comes from it.

Rape accounts for less than 2% of all abortions.

You say that wic only lasts for 5 years, in that time a woman can get a diploma with a hope or pell grant.

Originally posted by Clearskies

Rape accounts for less than 2% of all abortions.

Yeah I hear this statistic alot yet I know two women who have become pregnant through rape so I guess they were just very unlucky? The statistic sounds very politically convenient.

..and poverty is not just sacrificing new clothes or a trip to the hairdresser.

reply to post by Clearskies

To provide for your child, (or children) you do what you have to do!

Indeed. There are plenty of people in prison today for "doing what they had to" to provide for their children, who only wound up in group homes in the long-run anyway.

You say that wic only lasts for 5 years, in that time a woman can get a diploma with a hope or pell grant.

So why didn't you go to college instead of working at the ice-cream shop until you were 37? Not that I am trying to denegrate you for it, but certainly you should know that there are reasons why people can't always follow the beaten path.

Sometimes you can't get new clothes or your hair done.

There are much bigger things to worry about when you are living in poverty. Or even trying to keep from falling into it.

It's called Motherhood and even 14 year old girls have done it in the past.

Yes, very lucky girls with a support strong support network among family and community.

You shouldn't be having sex if you don't want the 'gift' that comes from it.

Wrong. People shouldn't be having un-protected sex, but mistakes may happen. Trying to deny and supress the sexual instinct is far more damaging. Ask the Catholic priests, and the child-molesters.

reply to post by Clearskies


I'm sorry if this answer sounds callous, but i can only answer what i believe. No i don't know how demoralizing it can be to see children and know you killed yours, that is not the path i chose. But i do know that a woman that chooses that path, for whatever reasons, must come to terms with that on her own and has no right to try to force her moral beliefs on others because of her feelings of guilt. Every woman must make her own choices based on what's right for her.



Yes a pell grant does help pay for college, but doesn't cover all the expences that need to be covered. If the mother has to work and go to school full time, then come home and study, when does she have time to take care of her child? And where does she get the money for daycare while she's working AND going to school ? Not all women have the help and support of loving families.



Believe me i know what motherhood is, i was 17 years old when i became a mother. I was 19 and pregnant with my second son when their father decided that he didn't want to be a father and took off without ever looking back.


I also know that you do whatever you have to do to raise your children. I have come home with my hands swollen filled with metal slivers working in a factory, my hands swollen filled with thorns working in a flower shop, disgusted by the vulgar comments i had to endure from drunks while working as a bartender, worked for half the pay that my male coworkers were making and having my boss tell me when i asked for a raise that the men made more than me because they had families to support and that i as a woman could go find a boyfriend to help me pay my bills.

I have gotten up at 6am, taken 2 buses and a train to take my boys to school and then go to work, to go pick them up after work go home cook, clean, do laundry, help with homework, no time for me and get up the next day to do it all over again.

I wasn't worried about new clothes (i had three pairs of jeans, four or five shirts, and a pair of canvas gymshoes), or getting my hair done, but my boys had everything they needed. God knows i never went out (i can count the times on my two hands) it was more important to me that my boys have their mother with them whenever i wasn't at work.


I did go back to school to get my GED, then on to college with a scholarship and pell grant, although i had to wait until i was 36 to do it. I worked my butt off got my associates with high honors and a scholarship to UIC. My grandson was born 3 1/2 months premature and has a lot of health problems so i put the rest of education on hold after my associates to help my son with him.

So again yes i do know what motherhood is. I'm 47 years old and if i could go back in time and do it over again i would do it the same way because there is NOTHING in this world that i love more than my sons and my grandchildren. However i am very grateful that the choices were mine to make and that i was not forced into having an unwanted child that i was not prepared to take care of, and every woman in this world should be given that choice.


Motherhood is the hardest job in the world and i don't know of any 14 year old girls that could possibly do it without a vast amount of support from family and friends.


As far as pregancies resulting from rape accounting for only 2% of abortions i find those figures hard to believe, especially since their are still so many women out there that still don't even report being raped. Also there is the fact that they now have the morning after pill for the possibility of pregnancy in rape cases and i don't believe that that gets reported as an abortion, which would make the number of abortions due do rape appear lower.

Not all pregnancies are a result of unprotected sex, no birth control is fullproof. No matter what the reason for the pregnancy, no women should ever be forced to have a child, especially since it will ultimately be the innocent child that suffers.





[edit on 1/9/08 by chise61]

This would not be an issue in legislation if it were not for the masses that feel that they ought to control others choices. Why not worry about yourself and let the affected parties worry about their problems. People deserve to make there choices and live with there consequences. Who are we to make that choice for another. I am pro-choice all the way! You take away the right for someone to choose and you start slavery all over again. It matters not wether you are pro-life it's still not your right to choose for someone else unless the permission from said person was granted, AKA power of attorney or such.

I don't see all the anti abortionists sucking up all those unwanted kids being born. Where all the I know better then everyone else Christians adopting all the unwanted kids? Let people choose for themselves and worry about yourselves.

Not the my 2 cents are worth much.

Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by Clearskies

Rape accounts for less than 2% of all abortions.

Yeah I hear this statistic alot yet I know two women who have become pregnant through rape so I guess they were just very unlucky? The statistic sounds very politically convenient.

Politically convenient?
I think it's politically convenient for most pro abortion agencies NOT to track the percentage of rape abortions.
I think it would break down the largest tool they have for brainwashing people into accepting killing a HUMAN.
They don't ask you when you go to a clinic, "Why are you doing this"?
They don't care, it's still about money.
Many have come away from their jobs with disgust at what they had done;
meet the abortion providers

But it was a 1974 operation that "changed my mind about abortion forever." While doing a suction abortion, Jarrett found that the suction curette was obstructed by a torn-off fetal leg. So he changed techniques and dismembered the child with a ring forceps:

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13 Job Interview Mistakes To Avoid And as I brought out the rib cage, I looked and I saw a tiny, beating heart. And when I found the head of the baby, I looked squarely in the face of another human beinga human being that I'd just killed. I turned to the scrub nurse and said, "I'm sorry." But I just knew that I couldn't be a part of abortion any more.1

..and poverty is not just sacrificing new clothes or a trip to the hairdresser.

I was referring to a haircut. I had to cut my own hair.
But, yeah, it was worse than that.
Not being able to go to the doctor, many times I had to feed my children popcorn with sugar, because that's all I had, I had to walk my children across a road frequented by high speed tractor-trailers (because of the poultry plants) just to go use the payphone.
I gave my children a bath in a storage container in the yard, filled with water I got from the water heater.
Much more....
I didn't steal and I didn't turn to drugs.





[edit on 1-9-2008 by Clearskies]

reply to post by jackinthebox


I didn't get a pell or hope grant, because I got my CDA and worked at pre-K for three years, until I quit for my last child.
I didn't want to expose him to the germs when he was little.
I got the DQ job, because it was second shift and I didn't trust many people with my children, my husband watched them at night.