Who is the real killer in abortion? The parent or the politicians

Originally posted by Ciphor
And please. Don't bring anymore "law" into the debate. Bush can legally imprison you without trial for the rest of your life by calling you a terrorist. Doesn't make it right. I am not discussing law, laws are jacked up. I'm discussing right or wrong.

This effectively ends the discussion then, as RIGHT and WRONG are subjective terms left up to the individual to define.

[edit on 4-8-2008 by no name needed]

So in fact there is no killer in this situation and therefor no reason for this post.

You are then choosing to debate the term at which society has deemed something a "life".

If this is the case I then again ask that you answer how I can be put on trial for murder if I kill the unborn fetus of another woman and not my own. I am saying our laws and terms make no sense. They contradict each other at every turn.

Life is what we know life is. Not what a book has determined it. Whether it be religious or scientific. People know this is wrong. All of you know this is wrong deep down. You just turn a blind eye and feel it's such a big inconvenience that you should have the choice to commit such an act. Sorry to assume and "read your minds" but I'm no fool. And I wont pretend to be one.

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
As I write this, there are some 47 Million abortions every years.

[edit on 3-8-2008 by HIFIGUY]

Seem to me that that means there are 47 Million less people on this extremely over populated earth.

Before you start bitching about one problem on this earth maybe you want to look at how it is also slowing down the main problem on this planet: overpopulation!

Originally posted by tgreen2103

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
As I write this, there are some 47 Million abortions every years.

[edit on 3-8-2008 by HIFIGUY]

Seem to me that that means there are 47 Million less people on this extremely over populated earth.

Before you start bitching about one problem on this earth maybe you want to look at how it is also slowing down the main problem on this planet: overpopulation!

No such thing as overpopulation.Myth.The only thing that is wrong is the balance of wealth.

reply to post by Lethil


I completely agree that there is a huge gap in the distribution of wealth, but to claim that overpopulation is a myth is just naive.

Originally posted by Ciphor

If you can't handle this responsibility then TOUGH. Time to grow up. If the child has a hard life then he has a hard life, he deserves the chance to make it just as your father did and you did.

If the child has a hard life, then he has a hard life, this statement is coming from a "pro lifer" lol that's rich, real compassion you have for the lives you want to see spared huh

Time to grow up, your logic is flawed there as there are those that will never "grow up" and certainly won't magically do it because they have a child, do you actually see the world around you?

Do you actually have any idea what a "hard life" some children have when they are born to parents that are not ready to be parents ? My mother is a great person, however she (at the age of 22) was definitely not ready to be a mother when she had me. I had way more than a "hard life" because of that fact i was subjected to things that no child should ever be subjected to, let alone even know about. There are parts of my childhood (before my grandmother stepped in) that i wouldn't wish on any child and effect me to this day. There are children that have good lives, those that have just lives, those that have hard lives, and then there are those that must learn to just survive. Survival is not a life for a child and for that reason abortion must always be a viable option for those that know that they are not ready for parenthood.

If over-population is indeed a defense for this horrible act, then why would you turn your blades on innocent unborn children? Why not turn them on sickos rapists etc.? I'm not advocating this, I feel everyone has the right to live, over-population or not. I'm simply saying if this is such a concern...why not commit suicide and help us out? Because that's crazy right? You like your life, don't want to lose it...well maybe they don't want to lose theres.

Sorry this just seems a poor excuse to me, I can go on and on with better alternatives to lowering population then killing innocent babies.

Originally posted by tgreen2103
reply to post by Lethil

 

I completely agree that there is a huge gap in the distribution of wealth, but to claim that overpopulation is a myth is just naive.

Emmm...no im not naive? population could double and we would still be fine....

reply to post by Ciphor


First off, I dont take side on the abortion issue. I believe that as a man, which I am, it is completely the womens decision and I should support her and the child for whatever she chooses. I am just simply saying to the OP that there are bigger things to worry about on this planet that the life of a fetis.

And you are right, I don't want to lose my life, but at the same time I do not think that people should ever have more than 2 children. They should replace the wife and the husband. After that, take care and love and cherish your children, but for the respect of the world dont have more. Just my opinion though.

Originally posted by Ciphor

Currently there is well over a 2-3 year wait on new born babies to be adopted. The amount of parents who can't give birth far out numbers the amount of new born babies available for adoption.

There ya go, the wait list for NEWBORN BABIES. What about the older infants, toddlers, and children that are sitting around waiting for parents to love them, that will never come? In my opinion if someone really wants to be a parent so badly they will adopt an older child, a child of a different race, mixed race, etc. And yes i'm aware of the fact that some people do just that, but there are those that won't, they want a baby, but only if it has a psyical resemblance to them and is an infant.

What about the women that know that they are not ready to be a parent, but also know that they would be unable to give their child up after carrying it full term and giving birth, and the child is then subjected to a life of neglect and possible abuse with a mother that didn't want and wasn't ready for it ?

reply to post by chise61

Do you actually have any idea what a "hard life" some children have when they are born to parents that are not ready to be parents ? My mother is a great person, however she (at the age of 22) was definitely not ready to be a mother when she had me. I had way more than a "hard life" because of that fact i was subjected to things that no child should ever be subjected to, let alone even know about.

A good idea? I have an amazingly good perspective on this actually. My 7 year old daughter came from a horribly abusive home, and has 6 pins in her forearm for the rest of her life to prove it. Don't talk to me about bad lives. You think because of this she deserved to die before turning 1 minute old? She is doing great now, will lead a wonderful life. She deserved the chance to make it out ok, and she has. What a horrible logic you have in my opinion.

If you had a hard life, are now living your life the way you want, how can you advocate killing and not allowing others the rights that you have? Are you saying you regret being alive and wish your mom had aborted? I just don't get your points...are you all implying you were worthy of a life that these others are not? Or are you saying you should have been killed or would be ok with that?

Sure it's easy for you to say this, YOU WEREN'T ABORTED. How nice it must be to have a life eh? Gee, now can we let others have a turn before you pass your judgment of death on them for reason of "inconvenience" or "to many people here sorry, no room for you! This perv over here and this serial killer need to eat!!!".

THIS WORLD IS MAD! I hope there is a god, save our souls.

Originally posted by Ciphor
reply to post by chise61

 

Do you actually have any idea what a "hard life" some children have when they are born to parents that are not ready to be parents ? My mother is a great person, however she (at the age of 22) was definitely not ready to be a mother when she had me. I had way more than a "hard life" because of that fact i was subjected to things that no child should ever be subjected to, let alone even know about.

A good idea? I have an amazingly good perspective on this actually. My 7 year old daughter came from a horribly abusive home, and has 6 pins in her forearm for the rest of her life to prove it. Don't talk to me about bad lives. You think because of this she deserved to die before turning 1 minute old? She is doing great now, will lead a wonderful life. She deserved the chance to make it out ok, and she has. What a horrible logic you have in my opinion.

If you had a hard life, are now living your life the way you want, how can you advocate killing and not allowing others the rights that you have? Are you saying you regret being alive and wish your mom had aborted? I just don't get your points...are you all implying you were worthy of a life that these others are not? Or are you saying you should have been killed or would be ok with that?

Sure it's easy for you to say this, YOU WEREN'T ABORTED. How nice it must be to have a life eh? Gee, now can we let others have a turn before you pass your judgment of death on them for reason of "inconvenience" or "to many people here sorry, no room for you! This perv over here and this serial killer need to eat!!!".

THIS WORLD IS MAD! I hope there is a god, save our souls.

Thats some crazy logic...for the sheer fact that chise's life is what it is up to now...chise's life is not when he/she is born but the cumulitive events that led up to who he/she is now.So to say *i* wouldnt be here if i was aborted etc is flawed...because you are not you without memories,experiences etc etc...ohh and sorry chise if im speaking for you and you have a different opinion...just my thoughts on that...

Don't talk to me about adoption. I've adopted 2 kids and struggle every damn day of my life to give them something good. You have no perspective but your own. THEY DESERVE A CHANCE. Who are you to take away that right to a life? The chance to turn 70? Maybe there whole life will suck but when they hit 50 they will save someone from a car wreck. Who knows! But one thing is certain. They wont do anything in a waste bag being thrown out in a abortion clinic.

You have judged there lives before they have had a chance to prove you wrong as you have proven yourself wrong already.

What about the ones who would have a great life? The parent gets turned around by the birth? How do you justify there deaths. This whole discussion makes me sick to my stomach. I'm as open minded as the next guy but these are lives. They don't have cars yet or cloths, but they think eat and have beating hearts.

reply to post by Lethil

Thats some crazy logic...for the sheer fact that chise's life is what it is up to now...chise's life is not when he/she is born but the cumulitive events that led up to who he/she is now.So to say *i* wouldnt be here if i was aborted etc is flawed...because you are not you without memories,experiences etc etc...ohh and sorry chise if im speaking for you and you have a different opinion...just my thoughts on that...

I'm sorry my logic is flawed? Help me out if I'm wrong in clarifying and expanding on yours...

The baby has a brain, and memories, and this is proven through letting them listen to music. Your saying that because his experiences in the womb of his moms voice, a flash light, some music...just don't count? So If I go and terminate Chise right now it's ok because she hasn't experienced a mid life yet? hasn't hit 35? Only been here X amount of time?

Have you ever seen an abortion? Babies don't writhe in the pain of being dismembered because they aren't a life yet. They struggle when the doctors cut them up without sucking out the brain first. This is documented fact. Many woman have reported being haunted by horrible experiences of having the baby start kicking ferociously while being dismembered before a brain suck.

This is EXACTLY why they suck the brain first in all cases now.

Who are you to judge how many memories and what type are required to have a right to live? If Mozart is proven to improve a childs ability to learn once out of the womb then this clearly shows that it's experiences in the womb are contributing to his future. And with that, your argument is the one with flawed logic, or ignorance. I don't know which.

In my opinion, killing anything is murder. Do I think all forms of murder should be illegal? HELL no! Do I think my body killing a virus (or something) that had me coughing till I puked should be illegal? No. Should killing something that can think, CHOOSE, dream, etc., be illegal (unless in self-defense, by-accident, or that thing being needed for your life), yes.

What do some people in this thread think a life is? Some people think it is something that can think, others say it is human (excluding or including fetuses). A bacteria is living. A yeast (

reply to post by Ciphor


Having a perspective on it and living it are two totally different things. I am truely happy that you're daughter was lucky enough to get out of it and be given loving parents, but not all children are so lucky. For some their only way out is death, or drugs to try and cover the pain.

No i don't believe that she should have been killed before she was a minute old, but i do believe that in some cases a woman knows that she would be a terrible mother and an abortion may be the right choice. I believe that the choice should be hers and the fathers, not yours mine, or anybody elses.

And yes there were plenty of times that i wished that my mother had had an abortion.

As far as if there is a God and him saving our souls, the only soul that you need worry about is your own, let everyone else worry about theirs.

I think that's a hard line to draw flyindevil. But I think if we did draw the line, which most pretty much have in there own minds...that a baby fetus is far from the line. I think our ability to see and feel and have emotional experiences with it determines it as a life.

It gets even more difficult to debate when you consider personal feelings. I personally can argue that snakes are not much life at all since they don't have emotions and don't feel. Yet the owner of a snake who DOES have emotions and feels for it, definitely feels this is a life worthy of living. If you dared attempt to cause harm to his snake I would bet he would even go so far as to determine him more worthy of his life then yours.

At any rate I feel bacteria is a poor comparison with the unborn fetus of the most advanced intellectual being on this planet to our knowledge. I baby feels more emotion then a full grown dolphin. And most here would agree killing a dolphin for no reason at all would be a horrible crime and the act of a criminal.

[edit on 4-8-2008 by Ciphor]

It really depends on your view on when life "truly" begins.

Like I said before, religion shouldn't be involved with this matter.

But hey, can't stop all evil in the world including religious fanatics !

As far as if there is a God and him saving our souls, the only soul that you need worry about is your own, let everyone else worry about theirs.

No. I will worry about them, someone has to. God knows there parents don't. Again Chise, how can you say this is ok because some "might" have a hard life. What about the ones whose lives turn out ok? The parents who turn around because of the experience? How do you then justify this? To bad for them? So sad? What a tragic loss? No. You don't justify there loss of life and judge them based on the bad.

Do you not see how dark and horrid this thinking path is? Judge all by the bad? Put all the unwanted ones to death so some don't risksuffering a bad life? Give no chance, just eliminate all? How can you seem so wise yet so cruel. I can tell you are not this person. Wake up Chise. This is wrong. It is not our choice who lives and who dies based on what "might" happen. What is "probable" to happen. Because for every million that suffer, you will have at least one that doesn't and deserved there life, if not a whole hell of a lot more. It's NOT OUR CHOICE who gets to live and who gets to die.

Originally posted by Jezus
It really freaks me out how many people think they should be able to force a woman to go through with a pregnancy and force a child into existence. It is one thing to have the personal belief for yourself, but the fact that so many people think they should be able to force their beliefs on others is disturbing.

I'm with you there