Soon U.S. Citizens Must Ask for Government Permission to Fly or Travel

Originally posted by seawolf197
reply to post by cavscout

 

cavscout, I do so appreciate your patriotism.

I do have a question. A what if.

You are free to travel the world, and the US. You have two airlines to choose from.

One checks your name and all passengers against a data base of terrorist, and well know bad guys.

The other is openly advertising that it welcomes all passengers world wide and guarantees nobody will be asked any questions at all. No name is required. No bags checked, and shoes are optional.

Which one do you fly?

After reading the articles, I didn't see anything about permission. If airline number two existed, and one of their planes blew up, then what?

I'm sure it sounds shallow being presented in a message board post, but I would take the seond flight. The moment that you become too fearful to preserve your individual freedoms, is the same moment that you no longer are free. One simply can not be afraid to die to ensure your freedoms. I would much rather meet my demise at the hands of a terrorist while living free as opposed to living to ripe old age in my 90's and foresaking all of my personal freedoms and being treated like a criminal everywhere I turn. What kind of life is that?

I was born into what was at what time, the greatest country in the world. And I'm not referring to capitalistic or military greatness. This country used to stand as an icon of freedom and opportunity worldwide. People risked their lives to get here and then once again laid their lives on the line to create the framework for the type of life they were looing for once they got here. And now...we're just handing that away to an elected government who has turned its back on its people in favor of money and corporate interests.

And while some may argue that this country is still an icon for freedom and opportunity, I will argue that those freedoms and opportunities are becoming slimmer and we'll eventually not have them at all. The real domestic enemies in this country are the government officials working to strip away personal freedoms along with those American citizens who support the government's actions of doing so.

www.al.com.../base/business/1203070521306270.xml&coll=1

Huntsville International Airport is among more than 400 U.S. airports where passengers' identification documents and boarding passes are now being screened by Transportation Security Administration officers.

By spring, TSA will check documents in all 450 airports where it operates, agency spokesman Jon Allen said Thursday at a media briefing at the Huntsville airport's screening checkpoint.

TSA contends that having its officers verify documents adds a layer of aviation security. Previously, the screening function was handled by airline-contracted employees, Allen said.

"We check documents and make sure they're legitimate," said Sam Bucy, assistant federal security director with TSA in Huntsville, adding that TSA officers are "better suited" for this role. They are trained in identifying fraudulent documents, and they learn how to detect suspicious behavior and how to conduct interviews to spot passengers who might merit additional screening.

Since the first of the year, TSA officers here have been using hand-held black lights and magnifying loupes to verify the authenticity of documents.

People who have fraudulent or suspect documents will be referred to law enforcement for further investigation. At the Huntsville airport, the city's Public Safety Department will be called first, Bucy said.

Nationally, through the end of December, there have there have been 40 arrests as a result of the document-checking effort, Allen said.

I dont fly anymore anyhow, after working on planes I see them as nothing more then Bottlerockets with wings an people on it that you pay an extremely large amount of money for........

Dont worry America IS america, Our Freedoms wether this adminstration knows it or not will never be lost, and these current laws an regulations are like Toast In water..... they will get soggy an break, while everyone looks at it and goes " EWWWWWWW " lol

Let them Monitor our conversations, let them think that an Military might is all they need to enslave us, they will be mistaken this is America, let the Money trance wear off like it will an let the Us Fight For the People By the People....

As Brave heart or Mel gibson once said =

" YOU CAN TAKE OUR LAND....... BUT YOU CANNOT TAKE OUR FREEDOM! "

[edit on 2-3-2008 by Trance Optic]

reply to post by Apsaroke


If I was a terrorist I would fly the airline with supposedly higher security, and now I will tell you why.

No one would expect me to. Civilians won't bother to pay attention to anything out of the ordinary, with their false sense of security stoked by the apparatus around them.

Security personnel become lax once the new measures have been in place for a while. A terrorist will seek out any weakness and exploit it.

The structured security program helps to structure the terrorist plan. Take the armed Air-Marshal for example. If you know there is one on the plane, you know no one else is carrying a gun. Without a restriction on armed passengers, the terrorist must now calculate what he does not know. How many passengers are armed? This same scenario can be played out with almost any security procedure.

It should also be noted that our leaders just love control. With all of these security measures in place, they know exactly how to circumvent them. This makes it much easier to carry out false-flag ops, while cutting down on the "cowboy factor." So all of these security measures actually increase the likelihood of success for a false-flag attack. The control factor is on many levels as well, including how to spin the news to the public. "Well gee, we never expected the terrorists to attack where our security was better," adding credibility to the falsity in the court of public opinion.


[edit on 3/2/0808 by jackinthebox]

Originally posted by Sky watcher
reply to post by cavscout

 

It has been that way since the beginning of commercial air travel in the U.S. You hand them your ID and your money and they give you a ticket after they scan your licences through a database that will say if you are on the no fly list or not. Its the same thing as before.

Been that way since the "beginning of commercial air travel"??? The no fly list didn't come about until after 9/11 and I'm sure there was commercial air travel before then, else 9/11 couldn't have happened in the first place.

reply to post by Shar

Notice the date on that 1995 to start with. During the Clinton administration. Bush did nothing to change it. Just because the people changed in office does not mean their agenda changed. It's going the same direction.

I'm not sure what you are talking about. If you mean the Rense FEMA document, the date is 2005, NOT 1995.

FEMA - The Secret Government
By Harry V. Martin with research assistance from David Caul
Copyright FreeAmerica and Harry V. Martin, 1995-2005
9-21-5

Note the copyright line, which contains 1995-2005. You can't copyright something 10 years before you write it. Rense uses the date-year convention
that drops the leading zero, thus 9-21-5
If the document was written in 1995, the date would have been 9-21-95.

Aside from that, I don't see your point.

Every government agency is trying to justify it's existence, this one is no better.

The citizens of the USA go through enough BS already when traveling, so why make it more complicated?

Because they can.

Just like the laws of our land they can not enforce the ones they already have, so they make up more.

reply to post by Sky watcher

It is stupid of course. I think in her case, it was one of the pure random.

The dreaded "SSSS" or "SSSS" with anal probe is more likely to be on your boarding pass if certain conditions exist, such as:
paying for your ticket in cash
last minute changes to your flight (even if they were caused by the airlines!)
one-way travel, of course
making changes to your name, as it originally appeared

However, a certain percentage of SSSS's are pure random, so that "terrorists" won't be able to predict whether they will be selected.

… so just having faith that you will be safe flying on a plane is better then actually taking measures to do so? I agree with most things Jack Box says, but just not his interpretation. I don’t think having a background check is assuming you are a terrorist. I also don’t see any of this leading to barcodes on our foreheads.

I don’t believe anything Rernse.com has to say, their stated “facts” or their opinions/conclusions from them.

The ATF and homeland security with their colored lights that mean nothing is an inconvenience. These governement organizations reek of the same bile and pus of the GESTAPO. We sit on our ditty boxes and chat in these electronic spaces while our god givien rights by out founding fathers our craped on every day. We Are SCREWED.

Originally posted by Jake the Dog Man
… so just having faith that you will be safe flying on a plane is better then actually taking measures to do so? I agree with most things Jack Box says, but just not his interpretation. I don’t think having a background check is assuming you are a terrorist. I also don’t see any of this leading to barcodes on our foreheads.

I don’t believe anything Rernse.com has to say, their stated “facts” or their opinions/conclusions from them.

Every movement towards "safety" is a move away from a freedom. So the question becomes "How many freedoms do you need to have taken away from you in order for you to feel safe?"

I'll have to respectfully disagree with your viewpoint that having a background check is not assuming your a terrorist. IMO, it most certainly is. You are assumed to be a terrorist in the sense that you will not be allowed to board the plane until the data check proves that you are not on the list and therefore, proves that you are not a suspected terrorist. With the blanket applicability to all passengers without probable cause, this is a gross violation of privacy rights.

At one time in this country, they would have to have had probable cause to bump your name up against a list. Not any more. We're all now suspected at the onset of booking an airline ticket of being the next plane hijacker until proven otherwise.

reply to post by Apsaroke

IMO, it most certainly is. You are assumed to be a terrorist in the sense that you will not be allowed to board the plane until the data check proves that you are not on the list and therefore, proves that you are not a suspected terrorist. With the blanket applicability to all passengers without probable cause, this is a gross violation of privacy rights.

Yes, I agree. Not only it is a violation of privacy rights, but it DIRECTLY contradicts what used to be a sacred right in this country:

YOU ARE INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.

I'm sorry, folks, but each day, we get closer to what Germany became in the 1930's, whether by intention or not.

I would love to see some cold hard proof of this...anybody have any?? So far all we have is the word of a David Gutierrez of naturalnews.com. All of the other articles are word for word copies of the original. In addition, I see many posts in this thread examining the phrase "travel documents" and coming to an incorrect conclusion. When I search the TSA website, I find several mentions of "travel documents" and what they are referrnig to are the boarding pass and required identification (drivers license, passport, etc.).

To paraphrase a famous commercial of the past...

WHERE'S THE PROOF?? er beef.

What this "new" program does is place TSA employees on the front line of document checking. They are looking for fake passports, drivers license, boarding passes, etc.

Travel Document Checker (TDC)

This DOES ring a bell with me. I noticed when I stood in line at the security checkpoint in Boston last friday that the TSA officer used some kind of blue light on my driver's license to make sure it was legit. I don't recall this from my last flight which was roughly a year ago.

I can find nothing anywhere on the net to support this that doesn't directly reference the original article on naturalnews.com. This means that I'm putting it in my "this is bs until there's proof" file.

reply to post by BlueTriangle

Here it is, straight from the horses' mouth, that is the tsa'ss own website:

With the publication of the NPRM, DHS is also taking significant steps toward the implementation of the Secure Flight program, which would conduct uniform prescreening of passenger information against federal government watch lists for domestic and international flights. Currently, air carriers are responsible for checking passengers against government watch lists.

And here is the url:
www.tsa.gov...

DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY
Transportation Security Administration
49 CFR Parts 1540, 1544, and 1560
[Docket No. TSA–2007–28572]
RIN 1652–ZA15
Public Meeting: Secure Flight Program
AGENCY: Transportation Security
Administration, DHS.
ACTION: Notice of public meeting and
request for comments.
SUMMARY: This notice provides the time
and location of the public meeting
which will be held by the
Transportation Security Administration
(TSA) regarding the Notice of Proposed
Rulemaking (NPRM) entitled ‘‘Secure
Flight Program,’’ which was published
in the Federal Register on August 23,
2007 (72 FR 48356).
DATES: The public meeting will be on
September 20, 2007, in Washington, DC.
The meeting will begin at 9 am. Persons
not able to attend the meeting are
invited to provide written comments,
which must be received by October 22,
2007.

You can read the rest of the notice at the following site:


dmses.dot.gov...



Also,

The Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act (IRTPA) requires the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) to assume from aircraft operators the function of conducting pre-flight comparisons of airline passenger information to Federal Government watch lists for international and domestic flights.

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
Here it is, straight from the horses' mouth, that is the tsa'ss own website:

Thanks for the reply. I actually have read a few of the links you provided as well as the link detailing exactly what Secure Flight is and I fail to see how it could logically be interepreted as "Soon Us Citizens Must Ask Government Permission to Fly or Travel" as indicated by the title of the thread as well as the source article. The only difference I see is that the actual process of checking passengers against the No Fly list is going to be done by the TSA instead of the airlines.

reply to post by BlueTriangle

I do agree with you that it does not explicitly state that. It all comes down to a matter of trust. Those that trust that everything that the government does, is above board, probably see nothing wrong with the takeover. Those that think that the government will use it to prevent dissidents from traveling would probably see that as a problem.

Being that we are on ATS, a community of people, many of whom do NOT trust everything that the government does, I suspect that many here have a problem with the government takeover.

Even if you trust the government completely, the government has a way of really "screwing up" things that they take over. In fact, it is possible that more terrorists may get through with the government checking, than if the airlines continue to check. The airlines don't want their billion dollar planes blown up, but some government worker, making $10 an hour, may have had a bad day, and overlooked something, because there is not a lot of skin in the game for that worker.
All you have to do is go to some government office, and see the lackadaisical attitude that some of the government workers have.(I'm not indicting all government workers. I know that there are a lot of hard-working ones), but given the patronage aspect of government jobs, it is more likely to occur.
Just my thoughts.

As most other topics, this one will be filed under “no win”. You can not make something safer without taking into account that someone will need to be prevented from doing something. It can’t happen. Even a safety guard on a table saw needs to assume you don’t know what you are doing to prevent a few from cutting off their fingers.

Case in point. Let’s say someone has multiple genital piercings, all stainless steel. They are stopped & questioned at airport security before boarding a plane. Keep in mind that TSA regulations specifically state that body jewelry is allowed on all flights. Do you expect that security should take on faith that the person has almost 2 pounds of metal in his underwear that presents no harm to the other 100 or so people on the flight, or should that 1 person submit to a closer exam?

Please don’t bother replying with barcode or slowly losing freedoms rhetoric. Actually give some options on how to prevent a known threat from being allowed to board a plane. I really am interested. I must admit to thinking there is a lack of effort being taken when I fly, certainly not too much.

We must learn from our mistakes or we are doomed to repeat them. Freedom isn’t Free.

reply to post by Jake the Dog Man

That IS the point. You CAN'T stop a terrorist from committing an act, if they are willing to sacrifice their life, and it seems that most of the ones we are worrying about, are certainly willing to do that.

Why do you think that the mode of attack now will be airplanes?
It is much more likely that it will be something else. That seems to be their modus operandi. They change their tactics to keep ahead of the law.

Look, if we're not going to guard our borders, do you really think that they will enter the country on airplanes, when all they have to do is walk across the border from Mexico.

The entire TSA thing is a big act to make it look like they are justifying the immense sum of money that Homeland Security has in their budget.
Ask any of the members of congress whether they think that we can prevent an attack? Most of them say it isn't a matter of whether, but rather WHEN an attack will occur.

Papers please!!
So much for America being a beacon of freedom and democracy.
I'm seriously doubting whether Americans will ever wake up to the reality of living under a dictatorship.
When people have had enough,all hell will break lose.Unless the military sides with the citizens at that time,most will end up in a 6X8 with no window.
This is one of the many reasons I will not set foot on American soil.........ever.
Canada already has over 400,000 Americans living here and I expect more to come.
All are welcome.

reply to post by citizen truth

Watch out. Now that Canada and America have signed that mutual agreement to allow troops to patrol each others' country, in times of emergencies, you're not safe either.

Canada, U.S. agree to use each other's troops in civil emergencies

David Pugliese , Canwest News Service
Published: Friday, February 22, 2008

Canada and the U.S. have signed an agreement that paves the way for the militaries from either nation to send troops across each other's borders during an emergency, but some are questioning why the Harper government has kept silent on the deal.

Neither the Canadian government nor the Canadian Forces announced the new agreement, which was signed Feb. 14 in Texas.

The U.S. military's Northern Command, however, publicized the agreement with a statement outlining how its top officer, Gen. Gene Renuart, and Canadian Lt.-Gen. Marc Dumais, head of Canada Command, signed the plan, which allows the military from one nation to support the armed forces of the other nation during a civil emergency.
American soldiers arrive on board the HMCS TORONTO as part of a training exercise in carrying out a NATO presence patrol in the Indian Ocean near Somalia. A new agreement between the U.S. and Canadian militaries has been greeted with suspicion by the left wing in Canada and the right wing in the U.S.
American soldiers arrive on board the HMCS TORONTO as part of a training exercise in carrying out a NATO presence patrol in the Indian Ocean near Somalia. A new agreement between the U.S. and Canadian militaries has been greeted with suspicion by the left wing in Canada and the right wing in the U.S.