Soon U.S. Citizens Must Ask for Government Permission to Fly or Travel

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus

Look, if we're not going to guard our borders, do you really think that they will enter the country on airplanes, when all they have to do is walk across the border from Mexico.

Or just come in by boat!

People from Cuba and Haiti have been doing that for years, a lot of them don't get caught.

Instead of trying to enter in a border town where people are aware that people are trying to illegally enter the US thru their town, they could just get dropped off at a beach a just mosey on into any coastal town or city at night.

Why would a terrorist bother to try getting past all the security at airports?

[edit on 2/3/08 by Keyhole]

reply to post by ProfEmeritus


Thanks for the reminder,I had forgotten.Canada is a huge country and I'm always locked and loaded.
Any foreigners carrying weapons in my country will be considered an enemy whether my government says they can be here or not.
I'm not a violent person and I always believe reasoning is the initial step.If I feel backed into a corner I won't hesitate to defend myself,my home and my country.
As far as I am concerned, ANY foreign military has no right in my country.......period.

EDIT: Do you have the link handy?I'd like to send this to some people here.
Thanks and Peace
Edited for a typo

[edit on 2-3-2008 by citizen truth]

[edit on 2-3-2008 by citizen truth]

Though this thread is about the TSA & flying regulations, the mentality is not. So we shouldn’t even try to keep other passengers/citizens safe? That make about as much sense as stating the need to enforce our borders but then complaining about citizens needing to carry “papers”. It can not be done.

This discussion wouldn’t even be taking place about airport security before 9/11 because planes had never been used that way before. If the discussion was brought up, I’m certain people would have used a similar battle cry of taking away freedoms.

I think my freedom to fly safely from point A to point B out weights some crook’s right to do so uncaught. It seems that freedom isn’t allowing criminals to roam around aimlessly, but actually enabling law abiding citizens to do so safely. I fully support totally secured borders with Mexico, Canada & especially Cuba. But when the point comes, I’m certain the same tired arguments will be used against that.

As it seems about time for someone to bring up our forefathers… maybe we should refresh everyone’s memory as to how they dealt with criminals & people committing treason… they were not quite as preoccupied with giving thugs the benefit of the doubt as sometimes thought…

PS- Canadians living in the US far out number any going there. Close to ½ our celebrities are Canadians! LOL!

reply to post by citizen truth

As far as I am concerned, ANY foreign military has no right in my country.......period.

I certainly agree with that also. It's too bad that our illustrious leaders don't agree.

I do agree with you that it does not explicitly state that. It all comes down to a matter of trust. Those that trust that everything that the government does, is above board, probably see nothing wrong with the takeover. Those that think that the government will use it to prevent dissidents from traveling would probably see that as a problem.

Understood. Unfortunately, it seems like 9 out of 10 people don't read the links or do any research of their own so they just assume that the thread title is a fact that is proven in the article. In this case, arriving at the conclusion indicated in the title is quite a stretch.

Originally posted by Jake the Dog Man
As most other topics, this one will be filed under “no win”. You can not make something safer without taking into account that someone will need to be prevented from doing something. It can’t happen. Even a safety guard on a table saw needs to assume you don’t know what you are doing to prevent a few from cutting off their fingers.

Case in point. Let’s say someone has multiple genital piercings, all stainless steel. They are stopped & questioned at airport security before boarding a plane. Keep in mind that TSA regulations specifically state that body jewelry is allowed on all flights. Do you expect that security should take on faith that the person has almost 2 pounds of metal in his underwear that presents no harm to the other 100 or so people on the flight, or should that 1 person submit to a closer exam?

Please don’t bother replying with barcode or slowly losing freedoms rhetoric. Actually give some options on how to prevent a known threat from being allowed to board a plane. I really am interested. I must admit to thinking there is a lack of effort being taken when I fly, certainly not too much.

We must learn from our mistakes or we are doomed to repeat them. Freedom isn’t Free.

Now you're getting there..I have hope for you yet.

Yes...you can not have safety withuot exchanging freedoms. That is the entire point. If you wish to live in a free society, you have to assume risks. There is no way to acheive both. I, personally, prefer to retain my personal freedoms, keep the government out of my private life, and live in the manner in which the writers of the constitution intended.

Your scenario is flawed. In your example, there is probably cause to search the female with the piercings (assuming you gained the information that she was carrying metal via the metal detector) and by all means, search away. Now, if you wanted everyone to drop their drawers to prove they had no metal in their pants, then the problem is introduced.

What we have here is that ALL names are going to be bumped up against a federal registry regardless of probable cause. Such data checking previously would never have been allowed without the probable cuase to do so. IMO, this is going to open a very dangerous door for not only other government sections but also other private industries. Imagine having to have yuor name data-checked before you're allowed into a mall parking lot, or into the parking lot of your favorite theme park, or theatre, or concert, or any other place where large numbers of people gather, etc..

This "marriage" between federal data and private corporations is scary as all get out and folks really need to open their eyes as to the direction this will without a doubt head towards. Now that the airline industry which is "privately" held (as in non-government owned) has been allowed to infringe on an individual rights without probable cause, other private industries will indeed follow suit under the same guise of ensuring customer safety. Now, this may seem benign to you but you must consider that it is the federal government tracking the data nd providing the data. This isn't the airline compiling it's own information and then running your info against it. You have federal government control hiding behind the face of private industry and ultimately it is the data held by the federal government that will either allow or disallow the freedom that you're trying to exercise (IE board a plane).

I'm sorry, but I just can't accept that level of government tracking and intrusion into my private life as an American citizen.

I think that checking a list of known criminals or terrorists is acceptable, thus gives them probable cause. I think that the point of running everyone’s name against a list is really semantics. How else can a list of criminals be used? Think of it more like checking the list to make sure your name doesn’t appear then checking it to see if yours does.

Either way, bad people will hopefully be identified. Obviously mistakes are inevitable, but they always have been. Mistaken Identity. Its been a problem since the beginning & will be to the end. I just feel that it is better to try to prevent problems then to just back and do nothing.

IMO, all this increasing need for documentation and security for travel is meant to condition people to accept a single form of ID that will incorporate all others, and so eliminate the inconveniences we now experience. It’s going to be much easier to take the mark than to refuse it.

reply to post by resistor

IMO, all this increasing need for documentation and security for travel is meant to condition people to accept a single form of ID that will incorporate all others

You're right, and when that happens, the terrorists will find a way to forge the document, or get someone to produce a legal one, obtained illegally.

reply to post by ProfEmeritus

Even if you trust the government completely, the government has a way of really "screwing up" things that they take over. In fact, it is possible that more terrorists may get through with the government checking, than if the airlines continue to check.

Why DOES the government want to take over the responsibility? Because they have so much surplus cash they might as well? There is no reason to believe that the airlines have not been doing their jobs thoroughly and correctly. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." The only thing that this would accomplish, is a nice big door to drive a false-flag attack through.

Originally posted by Jake the Dog Man
I think that the point of running everyone’s name against a list is really semantics. How else can a list of criminals be used? Think of it more like checking the list to make sure your name doesn’t appear then checking it to see if yours does.

If someone is acting suspicious in an airport, then by all means, take them off to the side and run their name. But to run the name of an 80 year old grandmother who is sitting in her chair knitting away just becuase she booked a flight to go to Texas to visit her grandchildren is an invasion of her individual rights in this country -- or at least it used to be so.

Be careful when you throw something to the side as being nothing but semantics. You're doing that with not only your personal freedoms but also with the personal freedoms of every other American citizen. It's not a matter of semantics, it's a matter of principle.

There is no difference in principle between the blanket running of names against a database to "prove" your not on a suspected terrorist list and having every male in a specific geographical area rounded up for DNA testing becuase a crime was committed in that geographical location and you have to "prove" that it isn't your DNA.

Once you forego the principle, you open the door to an entire series of potential abuses and this is what a lot of Americans fail to realize anymore.

reply to post by Jake the Dog Man

As most other topics, this one will be filed under “no win”. You can not make something safer without taking into account that someone will need to be prevented from doing something. It can’t happen. Even a safety guard on a table saw needs to assume you don’t know what you are doing to prevent a few from cutting off their fingers.

How safe is safe? There hasn't been another attack since 9/11, so why the new measures?

Freedom isn’t Free.

This isn't freedom.

This is:

reply to post by Jake the Dog Man

Obviously mistakes are inevitable, but they always have been. Mistaken Identity. Its been a problem since the beginning & will be to the end.

I just feel that it is better to try to prevent problems then to just back and do nothing.

So you're saying it makes sense to create more problems based on the slim chance you might prevent a problem?


[edit on 3/2/0808 by jackinthebox]

Oh man, is there any hope left for free America?

I guess I can no longer ignore the facts...

What can we do to fight this?

The solution to these types of problems is simple, free, and within our grasp as individuals (no need to form a milti@ or anything).

All you have to do is NOT FLY.

If a bunch of people simply stay away from the airlines then profit falls off. Profit falls off then share price falls. When share price falls the government gets a visit from the people whom they REALY LISTEN TO.

Pretty soon the silly rules go away.

We have the power. Don't believe their hype about a Nazi state. Just think hard about how much you really NEED to visit grandma again and then STAY HOME.

Originally posted by Sky watcher
reply to post by cavscout

 

It has been that way since the beginning of commercial air travel in the U.S. You hand them your ID and your money and they give you a ticket after they scan your licences through a database that will say if you are on the no fly list or not. Its the same thing as before.

If there's no difference, why are we making new laws?

Why are we paying these people to make new laws?

If nothing has changed?

Originally posted by Sky watcher
reply to post by Pellevoisin

 

Don't tell us Americans what to do!! Its our country and we don't need advise from you on how to run it.

I'm sorry but it's not actually your country. It's your governments' country and they will do as they please without you having a say about it.

I'm all for it! The more stupid and ridiculous the pseudo government becomes the more people will be getting fed up and admitting to the farce. Further more the federal government has no such power and the states need to stand up the feds and we need to "Never" re-elect a politician, never.

Sounds like history is coming full circle once again and the ideals of Nazi Germany and other countries that require "papers" to pass over boarders is about to become reality in the United States. Why is this not surprising?

The question becomes, when will we the people of the U.S. finally say enough and start demanding accountability of our elected officials and their actions. We were once considered the "land of the free" and now with all these new laws passed and more to come, freedom is a passing fad it would seem.

I am not talking about only individual efforts but it takes a multitude of efforts on the part of many to call for a stop to all this madness. How can we the people be expected to conduct business if we can not board a domestic flight and travel to conduct business meetings in other states? And let us not forget that if all this TSA plan goes as planned, it will soon be that travel via cars from state to state is going to become a "show your papers" event, which also means getting permission.

All of this is really getting out of hand. It is becoming a great infringment on a persons rights. And with all this pending disastors that might just be in the works and with so many that know it is coming, are we all just going to sit back and take it in stride?

If we act like we act in regards to gasoline for our cars, then we will just let them continue to rape us silly and control every aspect of our lives. So then we can say for sure right now, that "1984" and big brother is indeed running our lives! With all that is going down, why we the people allow what is happening to take place is really something.

But again, this is not about an individual effort, it must be a national effort or else as they say, people will just disappear with no explanation right? Do we really have to live in so much fear or do we start talking things up, cause if any of this really comes to pass we have no one to blame but ourselves.

reply to post by Jonar

We were once considered the "land of the free" and now with all these new laws passed and more to come, freedom is a passing fad it would seem.

You are absolutely right. Since 9/11, our rights are being whittled away one by one. I was not one to believe that our government was behind 9/11, and even to this day, I still find it hard in my heart to believe that it was an inside job. Regardless, Bush HAS USED 9/11 to bring America very close to where Nazi German was after Hitler was appointed Chancellor by President Hindenburg. The parallels are frightening. At first, the German people were completely behind Hitler's actions, in part because of the way the Treaty of Versailles had emasculated Germany. Later on, although some Germans began to see the dark side of what was happening, people were AFRAID to speak out. The free press had been banned, and there was very little that people could do. We're far from there yet, but there are dark clouds on the horizon. Nobody objects to the governments attempts to catch terrorists, of course, but where does that legitimate effort end, and violation of citizens' rights begin?
It's a slippery slope.