NEEDED: everyones theories, beliefs, facts on the bible...post here

Here is another theory on the bible. It's in korean but dubbed in english.

It is IMHO one of the best videos presented on the subject, the only downside is that it is presented in a very dry format and is long, but it's long to provide more information to make sure that everything is clear.

Korean Bible Seminar

reply to post by THEGodSend


TO THEGodSend YOU ARE A FRUITCAKE
GOD IS JUST A IMAGINARY FRIEND FOR ADULTS
I CAN'T BELIEVE THAT THERES IS SOMEONE AS BRAINWASHED AS YOU
OUT THERE
IF YOU WANT TO BE A TRUE BELIEVER GO WATCH ZEITGEIST
IT WILL MAKE YOU IN TO A TRUE BELIEVER
IF YOU DONT KNOW WHERE YOU GO
HERE'S THE LINK
AND ANYBODY THAT WHATS TO FIND THE PATH TO ENLIGHTENMENT
PLEASE WATCH THIS


video.google.com...





NOW JUST PAST THE LINK IN YR ADDRESS BAR AND YOUR ON YOUR WAY
TO ENLIGHTENMENT

Originally posted by imgod
reply to post by THEGodSend

 

TO THEGodSend YOU ARE A FRUITCAKE
GOD IS JUST A IMAGINARY FRIEND FOR ADULTS
I CAN'T BELIEVE THAT THERES IS SOMEONE AS BRAINWASHED AS YOU
OUT THERE
IF YOU WANT TO BE A TRUE BELIEVER GO WATCH ZEITGEIST
IT WILL MAKE YOU IN TO A TRUE BELIEVER
IF YOU DONT KNOW WHERE YOU GO
HERE'S THE LINK
AND ANYBODY THAT WHATS TO FIND THE PATH TO ENLIGHTENMENT
PLEASE WATCH THIS


video.google.com...





NOW JUST PAST THE LINK IN YR ADDRESS BAR AND YOUR ON YOUR WAY
TO ENLIGHTENMENT

Why are you insulting others on this thread, what does that make you?
Anyways, you seem to be the one "brainwashed" since your whole belief system is based on one video. Im not the one to judge but to me it seems like your gullible. The truth can be manipulated and expressed in any bias view. The key element to be a believer is to have faith, which you seem to lack. You say watch the video and become a "true believer" and what do you mean by that?

Time4change,

I'm a Christian, and I've been an avid student/scholar for years. i find forums to be a frustrating form of discussion, but if you would care to email me, I'll send you links/excerpts to much of what I've learned. I think you'll be intrigued.

[email protected]
And just mention ATS

You can say the bible means this when it says this so many times. The Bible is nothing more than a technique used to bring order to an orderless system and was funded to do so by Constitine.

I can argue Lord of the rings is true with as much factual validity as I can argue the bible is true

Follow the linkfor more on how Constintine altered the bible so much that any religion based on it is utterly rediculousConstintine and the bible

reply to post by THEGodSend


THE God Send: wow, you are the first person I've met who doesn't believe that 6 million Jews were exterminated during the Holocaust.....truth of the matter is that Josef Stalin exterminated close to 12 million people. That thing about the Holocaust being a hoax to unite the Jews would really make a lot of sense: i cant believe I didn't actually think of that. The reason we didn't try to bring Stalin down was because FDR was going to sign a pact with Stalin, and had FDR not died, we would probably be socialist today. I know it's hard to believe but before you think I'm crazy, look up every single picture you can find on every summit and every meeting that Churchill, FDR, and Stalin had together, and you will not find one picture where Churchill was sitting next to Stalin. Churchill was only allies with Russia by association. FDR knew that Russia was advancing in technology much quicker than Germany; well, let me rephrase that, Stalin was willing to accept ideas and so forth from foreign nations. I mean Hitler exiled the smartest men at that time, and they were from Germany, i.e. Einstein, Tesler, etc. etc....

FDR also knew that we were going to fight the Pacific Theatre, so Russia was a perfect front to funnel troops into Northern Japan. Well, when he died, Truman, who knew nothing about FDR's plans, decided to use the bomb, a feat that FDR would never have had the balls to do. I can go on and on, but that's a concise version of why the count on Hitler's Holocaust was so high. Not only that, but Stalin killed his prisoners much much more brutally than Hitler ever did. My brother is getting his doctorate in history, so he brought home the formulas for how many Jews can be killed per hour, and it also had the amount of gas chambers at the prison camps; so we did the math, and it comes out to about 3 million, and they weren't all Jews; he killed whoever wasn't Arian, or whoever wasn't the master race, which was blonde hair, blue eyed, fair skinned Germans. Stalin wiped out the entire Gypsy race off the face of the earth just because he was pissed off. That is genocide; # that doesnt even compare to a fracton of what Hitler was even capable of doing, much less what he did.

reply to post by tikcufan74


EXCUSE ME: dude they were Christian by name only. If you knew how many of those guys were Masonic, you would be surprised. All you have to do is study the designs and little gargoyles on Capitol Hill and then compare them to the statues and figurines of the Masons, and all how we've been taught "One Nation Under God" and how they were all church-going believers, is bs. I didn't believe it until I started looking at some of the details. It happened actually as I began taking up oil painting, and noticing the details. It's unbelievable. And in case you're wondering, I did not get my info from that movie National Treasure.

reply to post by ullnevernoe


I'm not the 1st person to seriously question the 6 million number. People like Ernst Zundel, Germar Rudolf and many others have examined the evidence (including pre-WWII Jewish population numbers) and have presented analysis which conclude that it was practically impossible for the Nazis to have murdered (forget gassed) 6 million Jews. The Zionists resist research into what really happened with the Jews in Germany, just like they resist any thorough investigations of 9/11! It should be self-evident why that is so. They want to keep their frauds hidden and the lid on Pandora's Box. Would you want to be dragged into the light and have your head chopped off - or worse?

Ironically, the Jews are under severe threat of being made scapegoats and victims by Zionists! The concept of the scapegoat is, of course, of Jewish origin - the innocent blood sacrifice. Zionists are cannibalistic - they could care less who their victims are.

Wow, I took a few days off from ATS, and this thread more then doubled in size while I was gone.

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by defcon5

 

God is all powerful, supposedly, and somewhere in the Bible is says something like: "He is not willing that any shall perish but that all should come to the truth." If an all powerful God wanted to save everyone He would be able to…

if God is all knowing then he knew the domino effect that would take place after Lucifer's fall, and could have prevented it, but He didn't...

You are asking some of the most difficult questions that eventually come up to many Christians at some point in their studies. I don’t know what the most common explanations for these questions are in most faiths, but I have my own ideas on them from sources both within the Bible and in other religious texts.

While its true that he could save everyone, he could have just as easily created a bunch of “Yes Men” like his angles are, thus the idea of “Free Will”. There is something more to this story that we humans do not yet understand, and since we are not God we may never understand. I do have a theory on the topic though.

First off the idea that all men are eventually saved is not a new idea, there is even a school of interpretation based on this concept, its called Universalism.

Universalism is a religion and theology that generally holds all persons and creatures are related to God or the divine and will be reconciled to God.

So you are not the first person to come up with this theory, it has been around a long time, though I don’t think it holds up well scripturally. At several spots in the Bible there seems to be an allusion to the idea that God eventually redeems all men, but does he redeem them, or do they just admit that God is God (every knee shall bend, every tongue confess). To make matters worse, the idea that most of us have of Hell is a construct of the Roman Catholic Church in Medieval times, and not necessarily Biblically correct. Hell itself only exists in Translations of the Bible, not in the original writings.

Devine Predestination is also very clearly spelled out in the Bible, two of the best quotes on that topic is here:

Exo 7:3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

So we can see here that some folks are designed from birth to rebel against God and play the “bad guys” for various reasons. The funny thing is that, whether they realized it or not, men like the Pharaoh were still fulfilling God’s Will even when they were being the “bad guys”. Again, as we are not the creator, but rather the created, who are we to attempt to judge God based on our limited ideas of justice. The ultimate answer is that God made us, so he can do with us as he pleases, no matter if you like that answer or not.

As to why God created Satan/Lucifer, I believe that this falls into the same realm of “they are here to fulfill some purpose” whether we understand it or not. Here is the bit where I have to go outside the Bible itself to attempt to glean a theory, and its simply my theory and not based on the actual Biblical texts. The Bible does not mention much about the persona of Satan/Lucifer (its not even real clear on whether they are the same person or two different ones), and it mentions precious little about the fall of these angles or the war in heaven. To be honest, many Christians are running around quoting the Quran on the topic, and not even realizing it:

007:011 And We created you, then We shaped you, then We said to the Angels: "Submit to Adam;" so they submitted except for Satan, he was not of those who submitted.
007:012 He said: "What has prevented you from submitting when I have ordered you?" He said: "I am far better than him, You created me from fire and created him from clay!"
007:013 He said: "Descend from it, it is not for you to be arrogant here; depart, for you are disgraced."

As far as I know the War in Heaven is only ever mentioned in Revelations, Lucifer is only mentioned in the Bible once, and Satan 49 times (mostly in Job, and by Christ during his temptation). The one mention of Lucifer is strictly a mention of his fall in Isaiah, and meant to be a reference to the king of Babylon. The best explanation I have ever found on the War in Heaven or the Fall of the Angles is in the pseudopigraphal “Books of Eden, specifically in the “First book of Adam and Eve”:

7 Then the angels said unto Adam, "Thou didst hearken to Satan, and didst forsake the Word of God who created thee; and thou didst believe that Satan would fulfil all he had promised thee.
8 "But now, O Adam, we will make known to thee, what came upon us through him, before his fall from heaven.
9 "He gathered together his hosts, and deceived them, promising them to give them a great kingdom, a divine nature; and other promises he made them.
10 "His hosts believed that. his word was true, so they yielded to him, and renounced the glory of God.
11 "He then sent for us according to the orders in which we were-to come under his command, and to hearken to his vain promise. But we would not, and we took not his advice.
12 "Then after he had fought with God, and had dealt forwardly with Him, he gathered together his hosts, and made war with us. And if it had not been for God's strength that was with us, we could not have prevailed against him to hurl him from heaven.
13 "But when he fell from among us, there was great joy in heaven, because of his going down from us. For had he continued in heaven, nothing, not even one angel would have remained in it.
14 "But God in His mercy, drove him from among us to this dark earth; for he had become darkness itself and a worker of unrighteousness.
15 "And he has continued, O Adam, to make war against thee, until he beguiled thee and made thee come out of the garden, to this strange land, where all these trials have come to thee. And death, which God brought upon him he has also brought to thee, O Adam, because thou didst obey him, and didst transgress against God.”

One of the things that comes out very clearly in that book is that Satan hates man for three reasons: First, because he considers the Earth to be his. Second, because humans were created of a higher nature then angles, and the angles once stood in fear of man. Thirdly, because humans were granted a second chance by God and he wasn’t. The last bit is significant, why is it that the fallen angles were not granted the same second chance at grace that man was? They only difference I can find between the disobedience of both the Angles and Man, is that an Angle tempted man to fall, but the Angles fell on their own.

And thus, maybe it’s just that simple. Maybe God, in his infinite wisdom knew that if he created a being that had “Free Will” it would mess up, and need a second chance. Therefore, It is entirely possible that God created Satan so he could tempt us in the garden, and the fall from grace would not be solely the fault of man, thus salvation could be passed on to us. On the other hand, maybe God did it all simply so he could extend the greatest gift of love that he possibly could, to those who remain faithful to him through all the nonsense that is this world.

Of course, again, this is simply my theory, and it’s based on pseudopigraphal texts I have read, it does not mean its Biblically true.

But why not get down to what your really asking anyway…
Did God create sin?
The answer to that is yes and no. God did not create sin, but because God exists, sin exists. Sin is anything that is outside of God, less then God, or does not follow the Rules of God. This is why we need to live under Grace, as only through grace can we even be allowed into the presence of God. Grace is what we lost in the Garden, as we chose to try to live under the Law. Grace is what we re-receive when we accept Christ.

Man that was a pain to type up, I hope it makes sense.

Originally posted by assassini
Why does god need my money? A being that is all powerful has no need for money.

God does not need your money, but the church does require funding to operate and teach the message of Christ. As a Christian you should want to help with service and the mission of the Church. Tithing in itself is a good act for Christians to help keep in mind that you are not here to make a god of the World, you are to have no other gods before God.

Originally posted by assassini
What happens to the rest of us that are not amoung the 144,000 selected souls to get into heaven?

I suggest that if you are going to read something from the Bible you read the entire section at once, not individual verses. Otherwise you miss out on important factors and the framework that this particular verse is about. It is very obvious that you did not do that here. Let me help you out some:

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

The 144000 is only Christian Jews, its not the rest of us, we fall into the final group of the great multitude.

Originally posted by assassini
What did Jesus do between the ages of 13 and 30?

Its not important, so its not included. I am sure that he worked for his family, studied, and did many of the same things that most people do during that time of life.

Originally posted by assassini
If Jewish people are the chosen people of God, does that mean they get a "free pass" to do as they please?

Where did you get this one from, it does not say that in the bible, and to be honest the Jews have far more rules then the Christians do. Also it is questionable if the Jews are still the chosen people of God, if you read flavius josephus, the “Mist of God” left the temple after the Jews rejected Christ, the Sanhedrin stoned Stephen, and the Romans encircled Jerusalem. Many of the prophecies that folks attribute to the end times, actually were fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70AD, and this verse directly says that 70 weeks are “determined” on the people of Daniel (the Jews) and the city of Jerusalem, to bring in the messiah:

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Which would then end with the destruction of the city after the Jews final rejection of Gods Messiah and his message.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

After which Jerusalem was to become a desolation, which it did at the hands of the Romans. This was the end of the Age of the Jews, and the beginning of the Age of the Church. So are the Jews still the chosen people of God, after rejecting the messiah promised to them? That is why the 144000 are Messianic Jews…

Originally posted by assassini
If the bible is the inspired written word of God, why didn't God just write it?

He could not find a big enough pencil…
Seriously though, he did…
Through the men he inspired.

Originally posted by assassini
The old testement demands obedience or god will kill you. The new testement says that God loves you and if you sin you can repent and all is forgiven. Why is God bi-polar?

The Old Testament was written before the death of Christ, so folks who lived during those periods had to follow the Jewish Laws for forgiveness. Those Laws became invalid after Christ made the ultimate sacrifice for sin, at which point the way to forgiveness became through Christ not through following Jewish Rules.

Originally posted by assassini
Why did God command Abraham to kill his son, and then at the last second say stop don't do it? If God knows all, then why test someones faith? God should already know how far someone would go for one's faith.

Refer to my post above for this one.

Originally posted by assassini
Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. When?

In the end, after the judgment.

Originally posted by assassini
Thou shall not covet thy neighbors possesions. Why? Coveting someone else's porsche or ski lodge in colorado is what makes me strive to do better in my life, so i can one day have those things.

Because you should not be concered about worldly goods, and you should also not be worried about becoming successful. Neither of these things is a Christian attitude. Worldly goods should mean nothing to you, and you should realize that success comes from God.

Originally posted by assassini
Thou shall not kill. Why? In the old testement God ordered lots folks to be killed.

Again, refer to posts that already answered this multiple times over, even before you posted this comment.

You people are funny!

Why not "study" and educate yourself on history, and God before posting opinions and "I think"?

I was a Christian once but have seen the light and been set free!

I have been on a 10+ year search myself and have made some very powerful discoveries.

Yes, "religions" are "man's" organizations, to control and manipulate the people and a very powerful tool used by the reigning authorities to keep the masses in check.

Christianity was not founded by Jesus, it was founded by the false prophet Paul of Tarsus - a fraud, despised by the gnostics of his time and rejected by the followers of Jesus in Jerusalem (they caused his downfall by wisely hanging him with his own rope - metaphorically speaking). The book of Revelations was written to and for the benefit of the 7 communities that were originally following the teachings of John the Baptist and Jesus - but Paul was allowed to test them in order to weed out the unfaithful. The writtings to the seven congregations were to "wake up" those that were still salvageable!

The "true" old testament was the 5 books written by Moses as instructed by God. The rest were added by the Jews because of there significance in documenting Gods interaction with the nation of Israel, specifically his prophecies and the respective fulfilment of those prophecies.

Jesus was never viewed as "God," that corruption was introduced by the council of Bishops when Constantine called them together in 323 to put an end to the divisions of the christian sects of that time. There was much disagreement as to the nature of Jesus, which is completely absurd for anyone that understands the old testament and Gods prophecies concerning his plan to send a "final" prophet, and he will be falsely judged and murdered an innocent man.

Concerning Homosexuality.... You either accept Gods teachings or you don't, he is very clear on his position on this matter, priests will nullify the biblical stance on this to satisfy the popular position, but God is "never" changing.

Let's clear up another point.... People like to challenge the Bible and God himself concerning Murder, using God's command for Israel to kill every one of their enemies - including the women and children as an example.

The "original" commandment does not say "thou shalt not kill" .... It says "Thou shalt not MURDER! There is a big distinction between Murder and killing, Murder is the "Unjustified" killing of another, killing is the justified termination of anothers life!

When God told Israel to "kill" the people that occupied the lands of Israel, review the earlier writtings, he did not bring the Israelites into the land of Caanan until there sins have reached there full!

The land that God was providing the Israelites was populated by peoples that God had already condemned, that land was to be purified of the sinners and given to the Israelites.

The ten commandments serve as guides to help us stay within the parameters of what God deems acceptable, each was serves to keep us in harmony with him. God's people have most of these written within them and do not need to read them, they have a natural inclination to not murder, not steal, not commit adultry etc. Unfortunately we all have a tendancy to violate even the most basic of our principles, that is why we need a perpetual sacrifice before God, to provide an offering for forgiveness of our transgressions.

Sometimes we are tempted by an overpowering urge towards something we know instinctively to be wrong, even to the point of actually following through on those urges. Don't let anyone persuade you into accepting a choice that you know instinctively to be wrong!

God is still working in the world, Israel received a deadly wound 2000 years ago, yet has been revived 40 years ago should tell those with eyes and ears what is going on! The eighth is of the seven but goes to it's destruction! God bless Michael and Gabriel.

Originally posted by thinkink
Why not "study" and educate yourself on history, and God before posting opinions and "I think"?

Christianity was not founded by Jesus, it was founded by the false prophet Paul of Tarsus - a fraud, despised by the gnostics of his time and rejected by the followers of Jesus in Jerusalem (they caused his downfall by wisely hanging him with his own rope - metaphorically speaking).

So your going to tell us to read up on our history, then hit us with historically inaccurate information?

The Four Gospels have nothing to do with Paul of Tarsus, and were endorsed by Polycarp, student of John the Apostle of Jesus Christ.

Polycarp of Smyrna (ca. 69- ca. 155) was a Christian bishop of Smyrna (now İzmir in Turkey) in the second century. He died a martyr when he was stabbed after an attempt to burn him at the stake failed.
...
in particular he heard the account of Polycarp's discussion with John the Evangelist and with others who had seen Jesus. Irenaeus also reports that Polycarp was converted to Christianity by apostles, was consecrated a bishop and communicated with many who had seen Jesus.
...
His role was to authenticate orthodox teachings through his reputed connection with the apostle John. Surviving accounts of the bravery of this very old man in the face of death by burning at the stake added credence to his words.

Originally posted by thinkink
Yes, "religions" are "man's" organizations, to control and manipulate the people and a very powerful tool used by the reigning authorities to keep the masses in check.

A grace based religion, such as Christianity cannot be used for control, only a works based religion can be. That is one of the problems with the Roman Catholic Church and its view of salvation through both grace and works, and why they were able to get away with manipulating the masses for a period of time.

Originally posted by thinkink
The book of Revelations was written to and for the benefit of the 7 communities that were originally following the teachings of John the Baptist and Jesus - but Paul was allowed to test them in order to weed out the unfaithful. The writtings to the seven congregations were to "wake up" those that were still salvageable!

Actually, those messages were specifically written to the seven churches who were located near Emperor Cult Temples, and they were to keep the folks from engaging in that type of worship even though it was a law.

Originally posted by thinkink
Jesus was never viewed as "God," that corruption was introduced by the council of Bishops when Constantine called them together in 323 to put an end to the divisions of the christian sects of that time.

Well I have to give you credit for being correct on the Council of Nicaea, and for not telling us how they made the Bible like a lot of other folks do. Arianism was the main issue dealt with in the Council of Nicaea, which was about the actual Divinity of Christ.

However, there is evidence that very widely differing views of the nature of Christ were held by Christian believers in the Early Church. Only after the dispute over Arius politicized the debate and a "catholic" or general solution to the debate was sought, with a great majority holding to the trinitarian position, was the Arian position declared to be heterodox.

I agree with the majority of the rest of what you posted though…

I spent time in organized religion as a child and don't really frown upon my past much. It's sad to see scandals w/ priests and disguised holy wars going on in the mid east today.

The Bible, is a pretty sweet read as just another book, as is the Koran, and many other books out there.... what bothers me about said religion is middle America's "bible belt" where "mega-churches" are being and have been build. People in those areas, (haven't spent much time aside from X country trips) from what I've read in articles have become so swayed by government and "preachers" that they truly believe the prez (Druggie Jr) cares about Jesus and have convinced probably millions in holy wars, when certain religions have much in common, in a Utopia, there'd be "sharing of notes" on religious histories.

Should the guy care about anything, he wouldn't be vetoing children's health care.

[edit on 6-11-2007 by anhinga]

reply to post by Vipassana




Not going to quote it (my post is murderously long...), but I'm replying to the post that really struck me as the problem with mainstream Christianity. Rock on, dude!
I think it's better to do good things because we want to be good, not because we're scared of the consequences or because we want the reward. Most people that say "no hell = unjust God and a license to sin" clearly don't understand that.
Now, the rest of my post... I wrote before reading the rest of the thread. Enjoy...


This will be fun...


First: I haven't read the whole thing. I keep trying to do an annotation project where I read through and annotate verses and compare translations and stuff... haven't gotten very far, but I think I understand the first couple chapters of genesis sorta kinda well enough to refute flat out "lolz that's stupid it says days!" arguments. Otherwise... we're shooting with what I think from here:


Womans oppression?
The thing we need to understand about Judaism (where it started) is that it was focused on social correction--in theory--and achieving a better social structure, at least from their point of view, as opposed to the polytheistic nations around them that were more concerned with not pissing off their gods and therefore kept the status quo instead of improving life (we're talking from a specific point of view here, I realize). So social rules and rituals and such were put in place to keep society from degenerating into anarchy. Naturally that hasn't always turned out spectacular--or really ever... even the Bible agrees on that.
Essentially, I think the whole man Vs Woman roles issue falls into this category. Does that make oppressing right? Of course not!
Actually, I watched a video on women in Islam a few days ago. The general idea the video presented (documentary from the BBC, not sure of the date) was that the whole "modest dress" commandment, Etc etc was actually liberating compared to western versions--Islamic feminists wearing the jihab (please correct my spelling, for it sucketh). Recognition for personality vs recognition for body, choosing who to share "treasures" with, Etc...
There was also discussion of wife beating, freedom of Women to work, Etc. These vary a lot from culture to culture and don't necessarily have their roots in the religion (though the religion doesn't necessarily help eleviate some of the less favorable aspects).
Essentially it comes down to how certain people (usually the oppressed) understand their religious rules, and how others (oppressors?) abuse their initial advantage... 'course, these problems could easily be avoided (well, maybe not easily) if religious things were structured differently... but yeah...

Murder, Killing for faith?
Anyone who believes in killing for faith is a hypocrite, or a brainwashed drone. Period. Killing is bad, even if it is necessary to save lives. Would I forgive someone who killed in self defense? Yes. Does that change the fact that killing is still bad and should be avoided at all costs? Not at all!


Homosexuality?
Now, let's draw a line here: we're talking about sexuality, not emotional attachment. On the one hand, sex according to my understanding of the Bible isn't a bad thing, but exemplefies the power of the flesh over the spirit. (Why, you ask, would an all-powerful loving God give us something so powerful and then kick us for submitting to it? I'll get to that in a moment... XD).
The Bible doesn't spend a lot of time on homosexuality in particular--it focuses more on the broad category of perversion. Sexual laws really piss people off, I've noticed... and my explanation for that totally fled me. Ah, ok, I lose a point. ^^. But anyway...
*** Cont'd! Again! ***

*** Continuing... ***
But anyway... we know full well that there are dangers of uncontrolled sexual acts--STDs, population control, emotional issues, not to mention rape and other things I don't care to mention... so establishing a means of controlling that lust is important for a common health of everyone. Not to mention that dedicating to one partner is a lot healthier for any offspring... but that only works with couples that have kids, isn't it?
As for homosexuality, it isn't singled out so much as falls into the category of using sex for unnecessary self-gratification. I can't fault homosexuals any more than Heterosexuals (either of them abuses anyone, it's equally bad regardless of orientation), but as a form of sexual "o_o" that gets a lot of attention, something has to be said somewhere. All of that said, the gay-bashing crowd needs to take a course in human nature and cause and effect.

Ah yes, let's tie this into my next point...
"You choose to be homosexual;" "You choose to go to Hell" ... Etc, Etc, Etc.
"God is all powerful, but doesn't interfere in our free will..."
Someone tell me what Free Will is? The power to make choices? Computers make choices! Uncaused choices? That's just plain ridiculous. Oh, wait...
We can't make choices independent of a cause! I'm typing this because I saw an interesting topic and have gathered ideas on it and feel like posting them. I'm certainly not writing something somewhat coherent without a cause! Could I have chosen not to? Sure... but that doesn't change the fact that I'm writing it--choice made, nothing else happened, except maybe in an alternate universe... except... that doesn't make sense! Ok, I'm still debating whether or not I believe in parallel universes--the arguments are indeed convincing--but our choices can't create them, because our choices are heavily based on our experiences. We don't have equal likelyhood for every outcome in most cases. If we're hungry, and nothing else gives us a reason not to eat, we eat. Choice made... uncaused? Anyone that responds to this argument: by responding, you indeed confirm that your response is because there is something to respond to and you have thoughts on it. Uncaused? "But I could have..." Well sure, I could get up and go break into every room near me and stab people to death. So why don't I? I choose not to... why?
So sure, we have Free Will... but it is definitely not "free" so much as "not directly controlled". Indirectly, we are super awesome computers, aren't we? People get irritated when they conclude that this argument makes us robots. Do you feel like a robot? Your personality and decisions are based on your life experience, your internal programming, and all sorts of stuff we're still discovering... we're a lot more complex and amazing than any robot out there! And for those who believe in alien civilizations that may or may not have had a hand in our history: does this change my argument at all? If anything, meddling aliens would probably make this paragraph more valid...

So, how does that relate to God? Well, let's look at this: "You can't prove or disprove the existance of God". I disagree... you can't prove or disprove the existance of a supercosmic intity chillin in a higher plane and manipulating things. I think the imagery in the Bible concerning God is nowhere near literal--otherwise nothing in Genesis makes the slightest bit of sense. God is not a man that he might change; we can't comprehend God in terms of a guy on a throne, and he certainly knew the answer to the questions he asked Adam and Kane. I've been told there is reason to use "he" with God... but for now I just use it because it's less distracting--the reason for God as He hasn't been proven to me yet.
What is God? Well, God is clearly not bound by cause and effect, while everything God created is... clearly God is free from the restraints of time and space. The only way I can see this making sense is ***To be continued...***

*** I should make shorter posts... ***
What is God? Well, God is clearly not bound by cause and effect, while everything God created is... clearly God is free from the restraints of time and space. The only way I can see this making sense is if the law of cause and effect is, if not God himself, then a crutial organ of God. Consciousness? Personality? These are more confusing, but not altogether illogical, especially if we give God the title of "absolute sourceless source". In which case, it is not only possible for me to say "Yes, God exists", but pretty hard to say "No, God doesn't exist" without ignoring reality. The nature of God is up for debate--the existance of something from which the Universe immonates, or something that gives us consciousness, even if it is limited to what we have in science, is not disputable... we're experiencing, aren't we? "I think, therefore I am"?

Now, for the Bible...
The word for day used in Genesis decidedly does not have to refer to twenty-four hour days. Especially since the same Hebrew word is used in the next chapter to describe all seven days... oopse!
Genesis only strays from evolution in one point, based on my analysis--the time that birds appeared. It's pretty vague with land creatures, and "whales" in the sea verse is a King James artifact--whales are big seacreatures, but that doesn't mean they were the big seacreatures created that "day".
As for the sun, moon, and stars, look at the fermament stuff before them--I could paste from my annotation on this if anyone's interested, but I think there is enough physical confusion there (light before the sun was visible?) that we can pass off weirdness with light, day, night, sun, etc as a matter of atmospheric conditions instead of the sun being literally created after the Earth.
And, "the evening and the morning was the day". Not the twenty-four hours... but the change between light and dark.

Does that prove anything about the Bible as a whole? Not at all!
How about this: did the word for endless time (other than "time without end", of course... I'm thinking "eternal", "everlasting", etc) exist at the time the New Testament was written? I've heard that the word for eternity didn't exist in any language until the second century, at least... well after the book of Matthew, I think.
Actually, reading Matthew in the NIV left me seeing several views on the fate of the imperfect. Annihilationism had some supporting verses, and reconciliation had some stuff, and then there is "everlasting punishment"... which is mentioned only once. ... Wait, what? If I am right in believing that the word for eternal didn't exist when Matthew was written... then instead of "everlasting punishment", we have "really long and painful punishment". I mean, "you've been gone for ages!", I'd imagine would be written using the Greek word that the KJV translates as eternity...
Oh, and. "Death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.".

So yeah, I don't know about the Bible as a whole, I'm just trying to find truth and stuff. But so far, the Bible hasn't let me down. "Created in his image"... where's the "it was so" after that?
I think that since we are not free from cause and effect, and that everything started somewhere, whatever started it has control over what happens in the long run... so if God decides to punish us for when we screw up, despite leading to our screwing up, it's because experiencing that is important to being able to add a "it was so" to that "created in his image" plan.
So God doesn't cause suffering? Don't make me laugh! "Is there evil in the city, and the lord has not done it?" "I forge the darkness, I create evil...". And let's not forget the tree of the knowledge of good and evil... make no mistake, God is responsible for all the horrible things that happen in the world. Does that mean we can just pass it off as God's plan and claim it's all ok? ***Find out next***

*** Continuing... ***
Does that mean that God is going to give us a clean slate and let us do whatever we want and eventually let it end in peace? Not at all... you don't punish a kid that stills cookies from the cookie jar, sells them for drug money, then lies about it for eternity... just until the bad behavior is gone. Does that mean that "Oh, I'll just be punished a little, so I'll keep doing whatever I want..." works? No! Correction must happen before anything good can come of it--and I certainly wouldn't say that any religious institution has the authority to go about correcting people. "First remove the plank from your own eye so you can see clearly to remove the spec from your brother's eye!".
So what do we say when aweful things happened, if our oh-so-wonderful creator is really behind it all? Asking why is a good start. Some of us live to experience a lot of rich things that we could see eventually leading to an understanding and "spiritual salvation", if you will... but what about infants that die before their first birthday? I don't know... maybe it takes something different for them? Maybe they need to experience something like that in order to become who they must whenever they're next conscious? (that assumes of course that the Bible is right about resurrection). I don't know, and I'm not about to throw "God's plan" in the faces of those suffering loss... talk about insensitive!

And as for sexual freedom: ok, go ahead. Bet it'd suck if your genetils got mutilated. Of course, then maybe you'd have more time to reflect. . Besides, it's not like I'm better than you; I've wasted far too much potential lately... and certainly not done all I can to help the world when opportunities have presented themselves.

Crud, I think I'm going to have to split-post again...

How about the old/new testaments? They're both useful. Both necessary to understand the other, sometimes--David was a man after God's own heart, yet he died a hateful murderer. (BTW: Paul tells us that David isn't in heaven or hell, but in the grave... fancy that...). And...? I think Jesus does teach some pretty profound things, and doesn't just do away with the old testament, but gives a new angle on it and its meaning. Contradictions? I haven't seen any, but I'd love for a "oh there's a lot of contradictions!" toater to point some out to me... puzzling is fun!


And one last note... I don't go to church. . Following blindly without looking for understanding is foolish.

And now I reply to the rest of the thread. O.O

Why does god need my money? A being that is all powerful has no need for money.

He doesn't. Did you know the tithe was only applicable to livestock back in the day?

What happens to the rest of us that are not amoung the 144,000 selected souls to get into heaven?

Dunno, but I bet it'll be awesome to reflect upon if we ever get out of it.

What did Jesus do between the ages of 13 and 30?

God only knows... XD. Umm... we aren't told. I guess nothing important? Unless he like, went to hang out with people elsewhere or something.

If Jewish people are the chosen people of God, does that mean they get a "free pass" to do as they please?

Nah, it means they're the ones that God most apparently deals with--not that he ignores everyone else, just that they're used to make it clear that he's not only out there, but capable of doing stuff today. Particularly since a lot of global stuff was going on back in the BC(E optional) in that general area, and they had access from the Mediterranean to Europe, Asia, and Africa... it's a combination of strategy and picking people to hold to higher standards. So no, the Jews don't get a free pass... they get it rougher than everyone else, because they of all people are supposed to be able to figure things out, what with Mt Sinai and all. *
* Or at least, that's what it looks like.

If the bible is the inspired written word of God, why didn't God just write it?

So that we would have this discussion. How many people would have read this thread if the Bible just appeared out of thin air?

The old testement demands obedience or god will kill you. The new testement says that God loves you and if you sin you can repent and all is forgiven. Why
is God bi-polar?

The calls to death in the old testament were social ordenances, as well as setting an example--not to kill, but to behave. First we build a functional society, then we throw a philosophical diamond out there and see what happens... I would have probably gone a bit differently, but then ... see above. ^^

Why did God command Abraham to kill his son, and then at the last second say stop don't do it? If God knows all, then why test someones faith? God should
already know how far someone would go for one's faith.

Did you ever wonder if maybe it was to show Abraham how far he'd really go?

Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. When? For the last ten thousand years any human or animal that was meek was taken complete advantage
of by the "bold and decisive".

This one is open for so much interpretation I shouldn't even touch it. But... are we talking physical or spiritual? (Most of your questions look rather physical in nature...). There are some for whom being beaten and trod under foot doesn't matter, because they are at peace with the universe. Then, there's the physical bit... maybe... later? Like... this whole resurrection thing (which ... is hard to pitch an argument for, ne?).

Thou shall not covet thy neighbors possesions. Why? Coveting someone else's porsche or ski lodge in colorado is what makes me strive to do better in my
life, so i can one day have those things.

So that you don't "succeed at life" just to "one day have those things". Maybe life isn't about having things? Again, spiritual Vs physical... and that sounds very preacherific. Oh, blegh...

Thou shall not kill. Why? In the old testement God ordered lots folks to be killed.

Because killing is bad. "But why does God not only have people killed, but allow murder every day?". I don't know... maybe so we'd ask?

I think that organized religon is more about control and money then the worship of a supreme being, but that is just my opinion and I've been told by many
that I'm going to hell.

Did you know that in old English, people put their potatoes in hell for the winter? And they weren't crispy next spring...

Still didn't grasp the Bible or the doctrinal teachings. (I've always struggled with the trinity concept...man,
tell a catholic priest you don't understand that and watch out!).

The Trinity isn't even in the Bible. Did Paul ever acknowledge the Holy Spirit in the intros to his letters? If I was the holy spirit, I'd be a little pissed. -_-. Well, no, but you get the point.

"No one comes to the Father except through Me"

This proves that if everyone does get into heaven, they'll wind up going through Jesus--talk about amazing! Only God could pull that off...!

If you're a 'born again' Christian while claiming that EVERYONE will be saved and there is no Hell (in clear contradiction to Christ's Word), then I'm the
Star Spangled Banner!

1. Where in "Christ's word" does it say that those who aren't born again will be tormented for all eternity in a hellhole of fire?
2. I think if you were born again, you'd actually teach us something, or just not show up because it'd only incite argument with those who have not received the spirit of God. I don't think anyone here is "born again". After all, how many of you have experienced being born, living, and then coming out of the womb a second time? Salvation is a process. Otherwise, couldn't everyone just walk into church, say "I believe in Jesus. I'm sorry for my sins... really.", walk out, and thus be saved for the rest of eternity? I think God's judgments are a little bigger than that, and God is way bigger than what I think!

There is not space enough in this thread to post all the relevant Scriptural references about Hell and Salvation! IF you understand the following 2, it
will be self-evident!:

Funny, I've read Matthew, Revelation, bits and pieces of the New and Old testament... Ah, ok, enlighten me. Oh, wait, you don't want to. There's plenty of space--go ahead!

"Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the Way which leads to Life, and there are few who find it."

... What? That doesn't prove anything about hell! That just proves that finding life is hard! That's all! I'm starting to lose my sympathy after that.

"No one comes to the Father except through Me."

That still doesn't prove a lick of anything about hell! You're doing us a big disservice if Hell is real, because that makes it look like you're grasping at straws... do justice to your lord and savior and show us something that actually proves something!

If all of humanity were to be saved, it would have been pointless for God to have sacrificed His Son! Given the nature of God, that's all the 'proof' needed!

Yes, exactly! Wait, what? So Jesus was sacrificed because if he wasn't everyone would not be saved. Oh, ok! So now that Jesus has been sacrificed, everyone will be saved! I take back what I said before: service to God complete!

What would be the sense of the Great Commission, if at the end of the Day, it doesn't matter whether or not you accepted Christ's sacrifice?

Ah, but, you see, it does matter! But if you die right now, does that mean you missed your chance and suffer for eternity? Nonsense!

Amazingly simple but penetrating!

... See above.

Stop spouting nonsense!

Right back at you, bud!

I just wonder why we still adhere to some of those rules..and wonder why such a loving god ordered so many people women and children to be killed in the
old testament, it just seems like, its gods word right? back then that was gods mindset, so why would it change just because we have. isnt he supposed
to be consistent.

True! "God is not a man that he should change his mind", after all. So what's up with some of the atrocious stuff back there? I don't think I grasp it, but I've been poking a few ideas around here and there, as my lack of knowing when to stop posting indicates.

You have NO idea of what God intended! Ex-Christians (if they ever were true followers of Christ) have NO authority to speak on spiritual matters. Get lost!
(Wait! - you're already lost!)

I've lost respect for you. You completely ignored the arguments put against you, yell "I know God! You don't! Lalalalalalala!", and don't even try to answer the questions thrown at you. And you call yourself a follower of God? Get real!

You are from the Devil. Get thee hence!

Let's try this! In the name of our lord Jesus Christ, send that which is of satan far from here, that those that seek the truth may glimpse it!

You still don't get it, do you?! I'm not trying to try to save you - or anyone else. (only God can save people). I'm here to discover fraud. I've discovered
lots - but it's refreshing to find someone like Blueangel7 among all the phonies here.

"And if they say, "Look, he is in the desert!", go you not to the desert."

Take your self-righteous mock outrage elsewhere.

Right back at you, my friend.

you are evil
im god and i will never let that kind of person like u in to heaven because you r gay

I hope that was sarcasm.

Either you are for Jesus or against Him. Either you are destined for eternity with Jesus or for an eternity in the flames of hell. There is no middle ground.

How do you know this?

check out my avatar
and get your head out of your my ass
i dont like ass kisser

... What?

Oh, one more question before i go. What if you're wrong?

Hmm. I think we should all chew on this...
Actually, on some things (not religious) my assumptions about me being right are more concerning how I think or feel than the outside... so for things outside: being wrong would sure make things interesting! Inside: oy, talk about a journey...

It is obvious that his most obvious message was LOVE. Christians would do well to remember that.

AMEN!