Woman Dies after Airport Arrest

Originally posted by Boondock78
no need to leave her cuffed once she is on the holding cell though.
do you not agree with that?

Wrong on that. If the person is in a aggressive mood, he will be cuffed to prevent harming himself. Iam not saying that the woman act in that prospective mood, but its ROE.

reply to post by Boondock78


I picked up on a few indicators in that original article which is what leads me to believe this was withdraw related. The agitation that folks observed at the gate was the first one. This can happen in withdraw as the nervous system, which has been suppressed, starts to function correctly again. Also the fact that she had to be restrained in the cell tells me that she was being less then a model person in there too. Unfortunately this tends to happen more so to women then men, because a woman will react emotionally first then argue as to why she is being detained as she will not see her emotional outburst as being wrong, while a man will usually take it less emotionally and put up less resistance.

Anyway those are the things I picked up from the article.

Originally posted by defcon5
but airlines start paying fines of $5000 per minute beyond five minutes of being late off the gate. This cost goes up drastically as the folks who made it to their flights on time start to miss their connecting flights at the other end. So to say that it is no big deal to wait an extra 5 to 10 minutes is not the case by a long shot. There has never been wiggle room in aviation, going back to the days when the government started holding on-time records against the airlines.

I have a question. I just flew back to DC from Miami last Friday (9/28/07). The plane was held up for a good 25 minutes because the pilots were late from THEIR connecting flight. Do the same rules apply?

[edit on 10/2/2007 by Griff]

reply to post by Griff


I believe that it depends on the delay cause. I know that a service delay, or a passenger delay fall under that rule though. It used to be an old trick to get the pilot to kick off his breaks and let us push them back a few feet off the gate while waiting for late passenger baggage, because that would be charged as a taxi delay. This was of course only useful for baggage as once the plane is off the gate, you cannot attach the Jetway anymore, and it had to be Ok’ed by the flight crew.

I am not sure how a late connecting flight crew would be charged to be honest. Still though, its not the same thing, the airlines is more prone to hold an aircraft for a late connection which is not the passengers fault, especially if there is more then one passenger late, and it will cost them more to get them new flights. It’s a totally different issue when it’s a single person and they are late because they showed up late.


[edit on 10/2/2007 by defcon5]

Thanks.

I agree that we need more info on this matter before we can conclude anything.

As far as withdrawl killing you. It's true. Look into how Jerry Garcia died. He died at rehab (first night there) I believe.

Originally posted by defcon5
reply to post by Boondock78

 

I picked up on a few indicators in that original article which is what leads me to believe this was withdraw related.

I was thinking along the same lines. Obviously given the circumstances there will be an autopsy done, and I'm curious about whether or not anything was in her system.

Also on a separate note, airport security personnel are not the same as commissioned police officers. They are hired through the TSA (Transportation Security Administration), I don't believe they receive the same level of training as your local police. With the airport security being under TSA and federal, their protocols and guidelines that they follow may not be the same, which could explain why the cuffs were left on and several other discrepencies that may have occurred. I'm sure half the airport security personnel were former military, and their instinctive training may not be ideal for civilian issues.

Originally posted by Texvet4
Also on a separate note, airport security personnel are not the same as commissioned police officers. They are hired through the TSA (Transportation Security Administration), I don't believe they receive the same level of training as your local police. With the airport security being under TSA and federal, their protocols and guidelines that they follow may not be the same, which could explain why the cuffs were left on and several other discrepencies that may have occurred.

The airport security personnel do not have the right to detain anyone, that would be airport police. Airport police are federal police officers and have the right to arrest, detain, and do all the other functions of fully authorized police. So if a TSA or other security officer in the airport needs to have an arrest made, they contact the airport police, who come and take over the situation. In the article I am sure they are referring to airport police, not TSA or security officers.

[ Removed ]


..with liberty and justice for all.

[edit on 2-10-2007 by Knightshadowz]

reply to post by Knightshadowz



You are very wrong on a number of topics here. Having been an airport employee for a number of years let me re-explain this for you.

Originally posted by Knightshadowz
There was no cause for the action taken, especially if she was acting crazy due to chemical inbalance in her system. That IS NO CAUSE for them to over-react and hold her, especially if there is proof that she was in fact on he way to an alchohol treatment facility.

It is illegal to cause a disturbance in an airport terminal. It has been this way since at least the 80’s, and I have personally witnessed people being arrested for getting angry with Passenger Service Agents, or getting into a argument with someone else in the terminal. There is nothing new about this rule, as it causes uneasiness with the other passengers, and can cause employees to miss or mess up something.

Originally posted by Knightshadowz
Furthermore, the article is surprisingly vague about precisely where and how the events took place prior to her being held by airport security.

She was not held by airport security, she was being held by airport police. Airport police are full federal police officers, and they have the right to detain you, they even have their own holding cells and questioning rooms at most airports. If you are arrested by airport police it is usually a federal arrest, meaning federal charges, not state.

Originally posted by Knightshadowz
In closing, I think it is a shame that people aren't looking at this for what it was; an act of negligence, an act of incompassion, and an act of pure barbarism that resulted in the death of a mother of three who was on her way to try and change her life for the better by going to an alchohol treatment facility.

No this is someone that missed her flight, and rather then take the next flight as the PSA’s tried to arrange, she threw a temper tantrum because she wanted them to re-chalk the aircraft, reapply the breaks, reattach the Jetway, reopen the door, and allow her to board. Regardless of whether her showing up late would cause anyone else on the flight, who did show up on time, to miss their connecting flights at the next airport.

We used to see this exact same type of behavior on a daily bases at the airport, believe me. The problem here is that folks think that it’s a quick easy thing when the aircraft is at the gate to just let them jump on it, when they don’t realize what all that it entails.

Originally posted by Knightshadowz
That is the bottom line; the life that was lost due to obvious errors and inhumane treatment of an american citizen at an airport, of all places and ways to die.

No the death is more then likely caused by the persons own dependency issues, being late for an appointment (another typical problem with folks who have dependency issues), and then not calmly dealing with the problem at hand rather then becoming emotional. We’ll have to wait for an autopsy to see if there was any mistreatment on the part of the airport police officers.

I had not seen the note about the 16-inch shackle on the woman, this would be much easier to hurt one self with then the 2-inch handcuf chain. Until we know the configuareation of the holding cell, we will not know how this happen.

Sri, laid it out on how it might have happen, or mabye they have the knowledge of how the room was alid out.

My vision of a holding cell (just opinion and how i see it in my mind that it is possible to happen0 would have had the woman sitting on a bench with her arms behind her, and the shackle going across her lap, like a seatbelt, holding her down.
If she were freaking out, and she was, she could have tried to slip out through the bottem of the chain. She may have gotten the chain past her upper torso, and would have been unable to get it past her head. So, with the chain around her neck, and her body weight pulling down, and her arms in a position that she could not lift her body for any leverage to relive the presure that was on her neck. This is the way i could have seen it happen, but reading Sri's description, it would seem more likly for a holding cell not to have a bench.

Also, let us be more careful, in previous posts above, people are calling for police men to not only be knowledgble of the law, but also first rate Phycologists!

People also are calling for personal information to be given to the officers, so they know how to treat the person being arrested.I know i would loath having to give out information about what i plan to do where i am going and what places i will go and what medication/ other drugs i may be on, and if i have any mental illinesses. I think the police should treat everyone the same.

Lastly, don't try to blame this on the airport security, this is clearly a case of someone who thought the world revoled around them. If she had simply gotten to the airport earlier, this would not have happen.

So, in conclusion, get to the airport about 3 hours before your flight is supposed to leave.

reply to post by TKainZero


Most police departments in larger cities require a college degree in law and criminal psychology. Rent-a-cops with a federal badge excluded. With all due respect to those that come to this site and actually see this world for what it is becoming; I hope you can stop it.

As for the rest of you, I pray none of you die as pointless a death as this woman did. You're all so desensitized that you cant see the wrong in any of it, and you've been spoon-fed lies by the media so much you don't even bat an eye to someones pain unless it involves terrorists or popping that little bubble you live in.

I'm done giving you all any more excuses to decide for yourselves the difference between the law, and what is right by human standards of treatment. Our "inalienable" rights are gone, and all of you will jump to the defense of those that took it away before you will have the balls to stand up and say it wasnt right.

Furthermore, the forefathers who signed the declaration of independence are surely flipping like fish out of water in their graves over the sheer ammount of tyranny and persecution still in this country. It's all about the benjamins, and as long as the money flows, the bullets fly, and people go about their lives ignoring the signs none of you will ever be free.

This is my last post on topics like this; I'm done, respectfully.

" Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice can not sleep forever: that considering numbers, nature and natural means only, a revolution of the wheel of fortune, an exchange of situation is among possible events: that it may become probable by supernatural interference! " -Thomas Jefferson

-Knightshadowz

[edit on 2-10-2007 by Knightshadowz]

Mod Note: do not remove mod edits.
Mod Edit: to again remove quote of entire previous post


[edit on 2-10-2007 by DontTreadOnMe]

Ok, I read all of this, all of the people that want to hang the cops involved, the people that want to excuse them. I read how it could be possible to use a 16 inch chain to kill yourself and those that said self immolation wasn't possible.

I have very little to add.

Butwhen I sign for a package, it then becoms my responsibility to see that this package is not damaged or destroyed until it reaches the destination. When a person (package) is given over to someone else, it is their responsibility to deliver that package in the same condition that it was recieved.

No matter how you view the process, that did not happen here. I too find it unlikely that this woman commited suicide, or died through misadveture, as we are told. But once you are in costody of the police, you are their responsibility. The total responsibility for the safekeeping of a person that no longer has freedom is laid at the door of those that confine this person.

And while there may be excuses made till the cows come home, it changes nothing. She was in the "possesion" of the police, and by their negligence, she died. She was no longer free, by the mechinations of the state, right or wrong, she no longer had free will. They became responsible for her welfare at the point that she was deprived of free movement.

It is illogical to blame her for her death when she was not a free person. She was a chattle of the state while under arrest. AS SUCH, HER WELFARE IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE STATE.. There is no logical way that you can deprive a person of their freedom and still claim that they are responsible for anything after that point.

This is just the way that our "justice" system has adopted as a cop out.

Originally posted by Knightshadowz
Most police departments in larger cities require a college degree in law and criminal psychology. Rent-a-cops with a federal badge excluded.

Well you can just sit there and continue to pick on airport police, but its simply showing your ignorance, so let me educate you some:

AIRPORT POLICE OFFICER

SALARY: Currently under negotiation. Starting salary is expected to be above $50,000.

DUTIES: An Airport Police Officer is a sworn peace officer, authorized to carry a firearm who enforces federal and state regulations, City of Los Angeles ordinances, and security, traffic, and safety rules and regulations; engages in law enforcement activities, including uniformed foot, vehicle, motorcycle, bicycle patrol and plainclothes assignments, arrest, and report writing at Los Angeles World Airports; provides information to the public regarding locations and operations of the Department; and does related work.

REQUIREMENTS:
1. 21 years of age at the time of hire.However, you may take the written test if you are at least 20 ½ on the written test date.
2. Graduation from a U.S. high school, G.E.D. or equivalent from a U.S. institution, or a California High School Proficiency Examination (CHSPE) certificate is required. A two or four year college degree from an accredited U.S. or foreign institution may be substituted for the high school requirements.
3. United States citizenship, or non-citizens must be permanent resident aliens who, in accordance with the requirements of the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS), are eligible and have applied for citizenship.
Note:
During the selection process, each non-citizen will be required to prove that INS has accepted his/her application for citizenship prior to the date the Airport Police Officer written test was taken.
POST-Certified Candidates May:
1. Waive the multiple-choice test
2. Be selectively certified (considered prior to other candidates due to their advanced training).
To be considered a POST-certified candidate for this examination, you must meet either of the following two criteria:
a. Completion of a POST-certified Basic Police Academy within the last three years; or
b. Following completion of POST-certified Basic Police Academy, employment as a Police Officer within the last three years.
If you meet either of these criteria, submit a copy of your certificate of completion of a POST-certified Basic Police Academy or your Basic Certificate issued by POST to Room 150 of the Personnel Department Building (address below).
Candidates who do not meet either of these criteria may be considered for hire based upon their rank on the eligible list, and if appointed, will receive POST training.

Airport police are not Rent-A-Cops by anyone’s estimation with any knowledge of the subject. They require 2 to 4 years of college, and are academy trained the same as all federal law enforcement officers. You can tell an airport police officer from a TSA or a security officer because they will be the one carrying a firearm. They are the only people currently allowed to carry a firearm in an airport outside of air marshals.

You can kick, scream, and foe me to your hearts content, but that still does not change the fact that your post was wrong.

[edit on 10/3/2007 by defcon5]

I believe this woman was mentally ill and used alcohol to cover-up her symptoms. Her peers could accept her behavior more easily, because *to them* it was alcohol related. Saying, it's ok she's just had a few too many. Therefore, she would be more accepted among her peers.
Now she gets to the airport and becomes severely stressed, because she was late for the plane and wasn't allowed on.

She suffered an acute psychotic episode, which was enhanced by alcoholic withdrawals. This was a complete surprise to her relatives. They never seen any forewarning that she was the kind of person to "break down."

A small person under these conditions can be extremely strong. Kicking, Screaming, and hitting. They restrained her to protect her from herself. It's was quite a task to restrain her in a psychotic state mixed with alcohol withdrawals. Finally when they did she was, like a trapped animal. Twisting and Turning.....doing anything possible to get away....
Even if it meant hurting herself.

My opinion is: This woman needed help for her mental problems, but didn't want to admit to it. Instead she opted alcohol to cover it up. An alcoholic is more accepted and rehab is the *In Thing.* God forbid, if she admitted to a mental problem....What kind of mother would she be? That was important to her.

Originally posted by infamouskiller
I dont see myself staying here at ATs when a mod say the officer is justified for killing a person for yelling and acting obnoxcious.

A Mod has the right to express an opinion like anyone else, now if he uses his power to control or further that opinion then people would have every reason to leave, but it would be better to point out that abuse of power then to just leave and let it occur.

For instance if a communication tool was used for promoting a single idea or not allowing conversation on black listed topics, lets say they promoted a revolution against Bush through the Crowning of another monarch Hillary just as an example, however I do not see this happening, and think it is only one Mod and his right to express his opinion, knowing he does not control the flow of ours.

If control did occur, the Internet would just be another tool for disinformation and control and we would have to go back to hand fliers and literally talking to friends to discuss our opinions, something we should do anyway.

[edit on 3-10-2007 by Redge777]

Ok she was said to actually be punching police officers, fighting with them, and the witness said she looke terrified as she said "I'm am not a terrorits, I am a sick Mom, I need help"

To me her reactions were one of a person who was terrified that by being taken away into custody she was being taken away to be hurt or even killed. This is a fight for your life reaction.

This shows she was mentally imbalanced, there is no way a person would think being arrested would lead to a terrible situation that one should fear, she obviously was not lucid and this proves it.

If I was going to be getting on a plane and I saw another person acting out in such an irrational behavior....I would probably seek after a cop to have her detained. I 100% support those cops for detaining her. She had no business getting on a plane with other passengers in the condition she was in.....according to what we have read.

Sorry, but when I'm flying thousands of feet in the sky in a tight compartment in a tiny seat which I paid hundreds of dollars for.........I do NOT want some woman freaking out up there with me just because she doesn't like something someone tells her.

I remember flying back from Vegas and there was a very beligerant drunk be totally obnoxious. Thankfully he wasnt near me, but I was not a happy camper most of the flight - neither were the other passengers being subjected to his "issues".

Now with all that said. We still dont know the facts. All we know are what the reporters chose to tell us

Originally posted by defcon5

Originally posted by Knightshadowz
Most police departments in larger cities require a college degree in law and criminal psychology. Rent-a-cops with a federal badge excluded.

Well you can just sit there and continue to pick on airport police, but its simply showing your ignorance, so let me educate you some:

AIRPORT POLICE OFFICER

...2. Graduation from a U.S. high school, G.E.D. or equivalent from a U.S. institution, or a California High School Proficiency Examination (CHSPE) certificate is required. A two or four year college degree from an accredited U.S. or foreign institution may be substituted for the high school requirements.

Airport police are not Rent-A-Cops by anyone’s estimation with any knowledge of the subject. They require 2 to 4 years of college, and are academy trained the same as all federal law enforcement officers. ...

I'm confussed, are you saying that Airport police are required to have 2 to 4 years of college? If yes, the reference you posted said that only a High School education or GED are required. And that being said, I'm wondering why whoever came up with these guidelines felt it necessary to indicated that a college degree can be substituted for high school requirements. Isn't that a given? I'd have understood it if they said experience in a related field could be used to substitute a college education.

Interesting article:

Forensic expert: Impossible for handcuffed woman to strangle self in airport

According to a guest on CBS News's The Early Show, forensic pathologist Daniel J. Spitz, "It's really not conceivable that she would be able to use the handcuffs that are holding her hands behind her back to cause a compressive force to her neck," but the chain running from the cuffs to the bench might conceivably have done it. "The autopsy is going to need to be done to confirm there was a compressive force to neck and that the cause of death is asphyxiation. It is also going to need to exclude that drugs or alcohol played a role or she had some unknown natural disease which played a role."

reply to post by paraclete1


Yeah, they mean if you came from another law enforcement agency. Normally you have to have a 2 to 4 year degree in criminal justice for most law enforcement jobs. That post was from LA, which was just the first online application I found on a google search, and its poorly written. You could apply for a law enforcement job with a high school diploma, but good luck getting in. Almost every agency I know now requires a bachelors degree and military experience, so even a 2 year is not good enough for them. Do some searching on the subject and you will find this out for yourself. There are lots of applicants who want to be officers, so they only pick the cream of the crop with the exception of meeting certain other requirements. The point was that the requirements are the same as other law enforcement agencies, its not the same thing as a TSA or security officer.


[edit on 10/3/2007 by defcon5]