A Challenge For Non-Believers Of Christianity

Originally posted by janasstar
The only thing I've seen here is the same old stale arguments from atheists and Christians alike. So, it has changed nothing, and frankly, I'm quite bored with the whole thing. Got a life to get on with. Might drop in from time to time to say hello. But you guys just keep, keepin' on. Be happy!

So you're giving up because it is difficult? What scripture verse is that again? I also don't see where "be happy" is good enough to grant anyone eternal life. Perhaps if you re-examined the stakes here, it may give stronger motivation to "fight the good fight". I say this only as an encouragement from a fellow saint.

Originally posted by DaRAGE
How would you like it if the money said "There is no God"?

Who cares? Money is not my god.

Originally posted by DaRAGEYou know what bugs me? Jesus this. Jesus that.

This made my day. I'm glad someone is gets it.

Originally posted by DaRAGEWhy is the image of jesus on a cross.

A way of remembering that Jesus died for our sins, that by believing in him we can be saved. I like the empty cross which means "He has risen".

Originally posted by DaRAGE
So "thou shall not worship false idols", "There is one true God". Who wrote these words? Men. Fallible men.

According to written record, God wrote them. Twice.

Question this, does reading the New Testement make you better as a person or worse? Does it question your inner self does it pose a threat? Can it make you into a new person of understanding. I just think the basic morals in society today have been diluted and the Bible seems to say the right amount to straighten people out in what is needed to become in, of defeating your inner evil half. Maybe you might not believe in creationism but it does still have worthy meaning.

Originally posted by Niall197
But nowhere in the Gospels does it even mention a stable.

Luke 2:7
"and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn."

Luke 2:12
"This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger."

Luke 2:16
"So they hurried off and found Mary and Joseph, and the baby, who was lying in the manger."

Originally posted by Niall197
So what exactly are we celebrating ?

The birth of Christ in earthly form.

Originally posted by Niall197
A legend passed down through the ages ?

Nope.

Originally posted by Niall197
So what does the Bible say about the date Jesus was born ?

It gives a season. There are speculations, but the date was settled upon because different townspeople were celebrating holidays at different times. This consolidation I think was a mistake for the reason you'd given here, nevertheless, I see joy in celebrating Christ's birth.

Originally posted by Niall197
Luke says that Jesus was born during a census period of the reign of Caesar Augustus, when Quirinius was Syrian governor & during the reign of Herod of Judea. So you'd think we could maybe pin Jesus's birth to maybe a few years within the overlap of each period in office, huh ?

Is the date of his birth more important than the fact he was born? Or what he did for us?

Originally posted by Niall197
Could the historic Jesus have created thousands of fishes and loaves, or cured the lame, or walked on water or any of the other remarkable things that the Jesus of faith did ?

He not only could, he did. We speak of the same one.

Originally posted by Niall197
No he couldn't. He just couldn't. He could no more do it than Caesar himself. The historic Jesus was just a guy. A very remarkable guy indeed. But no more divine than you or I.

Your lack of belief doesn't substantiate fact any more than my belief alone does .

Originally posted by DaRAGE
Pssst. I am Jesus Christ reincarnated. Believe it. Have faith. It's true...

And im going to say it again: "I have come, to heal the sick, raise the dead, cast out the devil, bind up the broken-hearted and set the captives free."

I am reinvigorated in this quest. Amen. Follow me my disciples.Follow me and dont open your mind. Keep it closed. Muahahahahahah

If this was all that faith was, then we should believe you. But, we don't. Why do you think that is?

Originally posted by The time lord
Question this, does reading the New Testement make you better as a person or worse? Does it question your inner self does it pose a threat? Can it make you into a new person of understanding. I just think the basic morals in society today have been diluted and the Bible seems to say the right amount to straighten people out in what is needed to become in, of defeating your inner evil half. Maybe you might not believe in creationism but it does still have worthy meaning.

My intention of the post originally was out of true concern and love for my fellow man, but I made some mistakes that I wasn't able to edit, and the whole thing has become a nightmare. Maybe not the whole thing. I have learned a few things. Some people don't want you butting into their beliefs or non-beliefs, and trying to change anything. I ask the forum mods to kill this forum, but I see it is still here.

Originally posted by jbondo
*Facedesk*

You really stay busy jumping around poking Christians with a stick, don't you?

That thar was funny. Yep, lots of people just poking with sticks, but if us Christians turn to jelly, what does that say about us Christians?

I'd like to give these a go. Good questions.

Originally posted by Quantum_Squirrel
Christians believe that God created this particular universe as a free act: that is, God was free to not make this universe. but this comes with a set of difficulties, because we can ask why it was that God chose to make this universe, as opposed to a lifeless one, or one with maximum suffering. If the reply is 'it's unfathomable' then the chain of explanation peters out.

I don't think it's unfathomable, just not able to pin every details. I believe the reason is relationship growth.

Originally posted by Quantum_Squirrel
If the answer is that the choice was blind then again the element of design is lost, because if the selection was purely whimsical, then the universe is reduced to a divine plaything.

Neither blind nor whimsical. The evidence in the Bible points towards purpose.

Originally posted by Quantum_Squirrel
But if the answer is that the decision to make the universe was a profound and considered one which proceeded from God's nature, then one is prompted to ask about the source of this nature.

In other words who designed the designer? making God not god/designer/creator after all.. and thus any book/teaching/tale/fable/whisper related to it is mute as that aint really God..

God by definition has no designer/creator as He has said there is no other, is the beginning and is the end.

Originally posted by Quantum_Squirrel
you see the kicker to me is most wars in history can be ascribed to religion i guess your peace and love msg got lost along the way huh?

They did not follow Christ's message to "love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you". Christian = follower of Christ (including his words).

Originally posted by Quantum_Squirrelif 'GOD' is forever then he knows the past the present and the future.. he must have forseen how we would tear ourselves apart and yet he is letting it happen , what type of benevolant creator would allow this ?

He did know. It is important for the growth experience.

Originally posted by Quantum_Squirrel
I Challenge you to watch this ..is your faith strong enough?

Surely. No new arguments here, same ones that many have addressed already before. By the way, you do know who Pen and Teller are, don't you? Or do they have elevated status with 'Prophet' George Carlin?

[edit on 19-8-2007 by saint4God]

Originally posted by plague
Have you not figured out that ATS is one big stale argument?

So true, so true. "What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

reply to post by saint4God


Maybe my name should be Jello Jana, Huh? :-) Thanks for your support, it is much appreciated and needed in a forum such as this. God bless, Friend.

Originally posted by janasstar
Bravo My Friend! Good for you! I'm sorry that you have such poor excuses for Christian friends. But in your age group, they probably have not reached the maturity level that you have.

Um, not cool.

Originally posted by Atlantix
Christians hate gays.

This statement is incorrect. Due to this the rest of this particular post is equally incorrect.

Originally posted by janasstar
I can't help but wonder what the results would be, if the non-believers, agnostics and atheists would take a certain amount of time (the amount will be up to the individual), and wipe all the hate from their hearts, or as much as is possible. Forget about every Christian or so-called christian they ever met, steer clear of the Old-Testament, and look at the Bible in a new light. Instead of studying it to use it as a weapon, just read it.

I totally understand what you are saying - except I must say that the #1 cause of atheism is christianity!

I am not a christian or anything definable with an 'ism' or 'ite', but I DO live for one reason and that is G.O.D. - and it is my desire to demonstrate to someone that G.O.D. is for all of us and is not at all what any certain group of people say he must be or that only a certain sort of person is loved by our Creator - and I am outspoken and well-read concerning such things...

And I have never felt the energy, which might be described as literally 'venomous', coming from an agnostic, athiest, or whatever, that I have felt, far more than just once, coming from a so-called follower of Christ!

It is hard for a person to believe in a savior who was all about love when those who claim to be following directly in his footsteps exude all things EXCEPT love to those who question or challenge the difference between what is SAID and what is DONE.

O Jesus please save me from your followers!

Someone like me, who believes that all men are indeed loved equally by God, and also denies a Creator who would permanently destroy that which he created, in his own image/likeness (in some form of everlasting unbearable torture) is often HATED for believing what Christ said - and doing the best I can to do as he did!

What I am saying is that I have experienced the void between the two extremes of zealousness and apathy - I can see both sides because I don't stand on either one - and I must honestly say (regretfully) that the hating is coming from those who claim to be Godly and the amiable ones are the ones who have no religion to defend!

By saying to stay out of the Old Testament, I am not saying that Jesus did away with the Old Law. He said that He came to fulfill it with a new Law. The law of love. Don't get hung-up on that statement either.

Ah! But it was not a new idea in the New Testament!

You shall not curse the deaf, nor put a stumbling-block before the blind, but shall fear your God.
I am Jehovah.
You shall do no unrighteousness in judgment. You shall not respect the person of the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty; but you shall judge your neighbor in righteousness. You shall not go as a slanderer among your people; you shall not stand against the blood of your neighbor.
I am Jehovah.
You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall always rebuke your neighbor, and not allow sin on him. You shall not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people; but you shall LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.
I am Jehovah.

(Leviticus 19:14-18)

The problem isn't a discrepancy or new regime - it is a continual and persistent lack of attention on the part of ALL OF US! Except Christ! And because of those who claim him but do not honor him, many doubt such a soul ever existed!

Will you take the challenge?

Why must there be a challenge? A welcoming and a non-discriminatory approach toward all people without respect to their personal beliefs or level of understanding would go a lot farther toward furthering our awareness of G.O.D. within us all than anything else would!

Why are we here? So that G.O.D. can be manifest! Through us! Not because of us or due to us but directly THROUGH us who already believe and KNOW!

What have you got to lose? You're not afraid are you? The God I want you to see doesn't threaten people or scare them with eternal damnation.

Why not just SHOW them G.O.D.? In you, yourself? Not tell, but show?

If that's too big of a leap, just try reading it with an open mind and see if you can pick up on the personality of Jesus.

It is our service to PUT on the personality of Jesus....to BECOME the same as him in all that we do toward all souls we meet!

There is no other way to positively prove anything except by manifestation!

Or at least realize maybe God's not so bad of a guy, after all. For the really hard core of you, I expect recrimination and the like, but I still hope you give it a try.

I hope you don't think I am a total jerk, either - or picking on you or anything like that - I am quite blunt and totally committed to the work and so I don't beat around the bush...

I know you are for the same cause as I am and so that is why I say what I do....it is all I know to do, to increase the effectiveness of Christ's immanence! Remind you that YOU are CHRIST now, just as I am and as are all that have 'put him on' as Paul writes.

Whenever you are reading the Bible, ask yourself these questions; who's talking? who are they talking to? what is being said? and how does it apply to me, or does it apply to me.

You know, I have lived, ate, and breathed the bible for so long that it is literally my skeleton....but I don't think that it is for everyone. What I mean is that I don't think it is required reading for those who are being served - only for those who are serving! We study and become and then we can be the word that is living for those who have not experienced a printed book as literally being ALIVE in their hands and before their eyes...

the WORD of God is the product of the scriptures which testify to the light!

for those that wish to study, we can help if asked...but G.O.D AND Christ can be found in every work of mankind that is done in the creative sense - art is what I call it - and literature.

The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe is, IMO, a far less threatening and more easily understood telling of what Christ is all about - and it is free of stigma besides being a light read equally as true...

Once we live it, we can show it every minute, through every medium, in every situation!

For example; Jesus made some remarks meant for the Israeli nation that wasn't meant for everyone.

Everything Jesus said was meant for anyone who seeks....what does 'Isreal' mean, literally?

Who Prevails With G.O.D.

It was a name given to a soul who manifested this as an example to all of us - the Jews are not any different than anyone else - we are all descended from Abraham and the reason G.O.D. made promises to him and his son and grandson is because they STUCK by G.O.D. and believed enough to bet their entire beings upon the truth....

and we all have the same chance and potential as Jacob did, in becoming Isreal - overcomers with Christ (same as prevailing with G.O.D.)

The idea of any certain group being special directly leads to that same group becoming the scapegoat of the human race - because the world believes that those whom we now call Jews are somehow set apart simply because of who they are - we now have some big issues to work out together - such as the holocaust and the repeated expulsion of these people from every country in the world, probably except Germany - we now have a totally twisted idea of both our history and our future, politically speaking, because of misunderstanding what the word Israel means and the purpose of those that G.O.D. calls out to be Israel.

There were 56 million human beings killed in WWII - not just 6 million Jews! Who killed us? We did! Who do we blame? Basically just one man....and look at WHY the Jews had no where to go...it wasn't because Hitler kicked them out...it was because they left and NO ONE let them in...NO ONE. And so now there has been terrible suffering in middle east as a result - no peace and no refuge for either Jacob or Esau! The cold war and communism...the Berlin wall - all because mankind was a respecter of persons instead of a lover of his brother!

Israel is the people who are to manifest G.O.D. and prove that God IS REAL.

Is Real. Not special and deserving of certain treatment or esteem...but selfless and willing to become an empty vessel in which G.O.D. can take up residence....so that ALL the world will KNOW that He is righteous and just and merciful...

There are none chosen for the purpose of being honored...in the heavenly host! Only workhorses and slaves! It has nothing to do with real estate or even temples and religion....just fairness and truth and humility and equality!

Any of us who believe we are special because of who we are, instead of being willing to be a nothing in order to glorify G.O.D. are going to bear the brunt of 'fleeing on the Sabbath.' If none are singled out, then none are singled out - if you know what I mean! And in that sense, the Jewish people have served the world in a very severe form of martyrdom - but it is time to make sure our balances (scales) are equal and fair!

reply to post by queenannie38


Have you read anything in this forum other than the opening post? There is no edit button, and no way for me to change the mistakes I made here. Please read more here than Just this. I've explained myself over and over. I'm tired and fed-up with it

Originally posted by janasstar
Some people don't want you butting into their beliefs or non-beliefs, and trying to change anything.

Those that so jealously guard a static state of mind are the ones who most need a little stirring up! If it isn't a sore spot, then there is no reaction!

Besides all that - if they don't want their beliefs intruded upon, then they shouldn't be letting them show here in the coliseum!

Fair game!

Truly this is a very important concept - for all of mankind....it is our attachments to our opinions and beliefs which keep us from benefiting from one another's differences as well as similarities! It is the fact that we all stand too firmly on our chosen piece of ground and in the end, we end up hurting or killing one another over the ONE thing we all have in common!

Our Creator and the bond which that gives us.

And when I say 'we' I am speaking in the most general of tones - 'we' are the human race and really there is nothing that should cause us to set ourselves against one another in differences that are less important than the things which we share!

We have national borders and political parties and religious denominations and then there is culture and language and all manner of things which make us unique....

We don't have to be all the same in order to be united as ONE under ONE G.O.D. nor do we have to become copies of each other just to get along!

There is so much we can all learn from one another - and not just related to spiritual things - but all things! If we could celebrate our differences as diversity and opportunity to widen our own horizons...then what we all share would begin to emerge as far more vital than any one religion or system of beliefs...God made us and so he has the key to every heart...we need not think there is anything which can prevent him from bringing us all into a single state of mind/spirit! He said he would....so it will surely come to be!

We all share the same ONE light...which is life..the spirit of God:

He was the true Light; He enlightens every man coming into the world.
(John 1:9)

Christ is IN all of us! Even if we do not believe in him or God! Still he has given himself to all of us and it is not a lack of that light which causes us not to shine but rather a reluctance to understand just how much we are each worth! We are all loved by God the Father who created us...if we can believe that He loves us then we can surely believe he loves all of us!

That is how I came to understand just how universal God's salvation is - when his love for me began to manifest in my heart, and knowing myself as I do...I realized that if I feel such a great love from God then there is not a single soul who shouldn't feel the same!

Because I know I am despicable and selfish and petty, left to my own devices! I have done nothing at all to deserve the feeling of peace I have in my heart these days - which, in turn, brought me to truly see GOD in every soul I encounter! I see him in me, in spite of me! And so I see him in everyone!

Jesus came to save us...not divide us. And even though he said he came not to spread peace but a sword...it was because he knew what effect the manifestation of God among men would bring! But it is only through the cutting up that we can be put back together the way God wants us to be - as one race...one people...on one planet...for one reason! To be happy and live in peace...and our children and our children's children.

Originally posted by janasstar

There is no edit button,

Yes there is, one has a sufficient amount of time to edit ones post. After that we must take responsibility for our words/actions.

and no way for me to change the mistakes I made here.

Why do you proceed to refer to your opinion as a "mistake"?
Stand up for your self and articulate it. We all have a room in here through debate.
You must learn to distinguish between those who seek an honest debate and those whom continually force their an opinion upon others.
The most persistent opposition will emerge from those who see the greater picture, we will not accept restrictions. We are all one.

This means your opinion is as valid in a debate as others. Articulate it in a comprehensible manner.

Please read more here than Just this.

I believe those whom exhibit precious time to compose long elaborate comments, have read the thread in full.

(it is not called a "forum" as you constantly refer to, forum is the media in which you enter your thread),

I've explained myself over and over. I'm tired and fed-up with it

This is not a fight as you prefer to view it. You have no need to "explain" your self, simply enter the debate.
Proper and well composed entries, with exact rhetoric are more likely to fortify your view point.
Tired take a nap

WIS

[edit on 20-8-2007 by WalkInSilence]

reply to post by WalkInSilence

Would have inserted your quote, but it's much too long. But what you have to say is just one more reason that I want this THREAD closed down. I am glad that all of you live in a world where you don't need an eraser on your pencil. But as for me, I do.

hey how about we give her a break hu?
we get it, you don't believe in God, she does...
lets agree to disagree shall we... this is not doing anyone any good.

i have a confession to make. at the point where i first posted a reply to this thread i was in the middle of re-re-re-re-reading the NT... actually, i was at revelations. i just finished up (alright, it may have taken a while but i've been busy.)

nothing came to me, nothing happened. it's just the same as finishing any other poorly written book (honest assesment, the writing style isn't so nice).

NT review: 1 star (out of a possible 5)
not much good in it... and the little good that is had already been conceived of by others centuries earlier.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i have a confession to make. at the point where i first posted a reply to this thread i was in the middle of re-re-re-re-reading the NT... actually, i was at revelations. i just finished up (alright, it may have taken a while but i've been busy.)

nothing came to me, nothing happened.

Were you expecting God to appear before you and say "Madness, you're on the wrong track, you MUST turn around and believe or else!" ?. Then again, if you read Revelations, you know that time coming soon enough and by then it would be too late. No hellfire and damnation speech from me though (just being topical with Revelation), I know it would do no good. Hope you had fun playing "book critic" but that wasn't the point of the exercise.

[edit on 20-8-2007 by saint4God]