A Challenge For Non-Believers Of Christianity

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
What does IQ have to do with anything? I'm highly intelligent also, but intelligence does not make one a believer or not a believer.

I hate it when people come up to tell me the "good news."

I guess this post wouldn't pertain to you then. The reason I explained about my IQ, is beause I was acccused in earlier posts of being spoon-fed religion, and not having a mind of my own. Is it alright with you if I defend myself? And don't worry, You won't hear the Good News from me.

[edit on 08/11/2007 by janasstar]

Originally posted by janasstar
God forgive me.

"God" will.

I set out to do a good thing.

Many a war has been started by people whom in the name of their God set out to "do good".

Before this post I believed that all people were ultimately good and just hadn't gotten the message the right way.

Dearest, what is the right way?
I hear your frustration. When we burn for a cause we tend to exclude the greater picture. Other people. We only see our selves and our limited perception.
The Spirit moves the heart, we are mere tools, and that is where we fall.
Pride.

But people are only seeing what they want to see.

Perhaps, but it does become tiresome to listen to various accusations, this is a forum mad up of people from all walks of life.
That life is created by, in some members opinion, a deity or not, but we are all on the same planet of pain and suffering, joy and happiness. We see what we can see.

you guys win.

There is no winning or loosing, stop trying to make others feel guilty, it has no point and does not further the discussion.

I really wish I could have shared the true Lord with you.

The "True Lord" is kindness, patience, compassion, meekness, all to which we come short.
The "True Lord" lifts us up, shows us where we are strongest and hides our weakness.

WIS

Do you really think this was about trying to make someone else feel guilty? No! The guilt is on my head! I wish I hadn't opened this can of worms, but now, I'll see it through.

And once more for those that aren't reading very carefully, I was not crowing about my intelligence or claiming to be the smartest person in the world. I was explaining that I didn't happen upon my choice of belief, out of ignorance, or limited choices.

Originally posted by janasstar
Do you really think this was about trying to make someone else feel guilty? No! The guilt is on my head! I wish I hadn't opened this can of worms, but now, I'll see it through.

janastar,
stop beating yourself up.
You were obviously well intentioned but you have to realise that you can not come on a forum like this and appear to blame a whole group of people of being full of hate, to totally disregard and disrespect the beliefs of some of your fellow christians and then publicise your own intellect without expecting to get flamed.

ATS is full of people with strong opinions and a high intellect who are willing to enter discussion on most subjects just be prepared for them to defend themselves vigourously and in turn be open, gracious, reasoned but equally steadfast.

I respect your intentions but disagree with your evangelical approach and to be honest most of your opinions.

Hey Janastar,

I am wondering. What was your original challenge? The threads goal was diverted I believe.
Just wondering.

WIS

janasstar, iq is something highly flawed as a measurement of intelligence. i know this because i've taken iq tests and gotten a 30 point difference between them (that's the difference between 90 and 120, below average to above average).

now, intelligence has nothing to do with how delusional one can be. religion is an inherent delusion.

now, i once more ask you why, as a woman, are you challenging us to read a piece of misogynistic literature?

don't believe that the nt is misogynistic? why don't you read up on it:

1 Peter 3:1
1 Peter 3:2-6
1 Peter 3:7
Titus 2:4-5
1 Timothy 2:9
1 Timothy 2:11-12
1 Timothy 2:14-15
1 Timothy 5:5-6 and 5-9-15
Colossians 3:18
Ephesians 5:22-24
Ephesians 5:33
1 Corinthians 11:3
1 Corinthians 11:5-6
1 Corinthians 11:7-9
1 Corinthians 11:10
1 Corinthians 14:34-35
John 20:17
Luke 2:23

these are passages i marked in my bible, bright green stickies for misogyny.
....and that's just the NT

i've taken your challenge, i found the NT to be a deplorable book in some parts and ok in others.... and revelations is just someone writing down an acid trip

but overall it's a book founded on irrational thinking, on faith.

now, i could make comments on faith, but so many great thinkers have done so before me.

"Faith is believing what you know ain't so." - Mark Twain

"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." -Friedrich Nietzsche

"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." -Friedrich Nietzsche

"Faith is essentially intolerant ... essentially because necessarily bound up with faith is the illusion that one's cause is also God's cause." -Ludwig Feuerbach

"Faith is a wondrous thing; it is not only capable of moving mountains, but also of making you believe that a herring is a race horse." -Arthur Koestler

now here's a truth on how to live:

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it." -Buddha (emphasis added)

religions, all of them, do not agree with reason.

Originally posted by janasstar

Originally posted by emjoi
Jana, I guess you've got to realise that you've stepped into a vipers nest in this forum. You have the extremes in this place from both sides of the track, and so you were always going to get some extreme replies.

Your faith works well for you, so be happy with that. Don't let this place mess that up. All that would do is take away a part of what makes you a whole person.

It's people like you, who help keep me going when the chips are down. It's what fellowship is all about. And i appreciate your support and understanding, no matter what side of the fence you're on.

Good post also. I don't agree with janasstar and am not christian, but wholeheartedly agree with what emjoi posts.

Originally posted by janasstar
I can't help but wonder what the results would be, if the non-believers, agnostics and atheists would take a certain amount of time (the amount will be up to the individual), and wipe all the hate from their hearts, or as much as is possible. Forget about every Christian or so-called christian they ever met, steer clear of the Old-Testament, and look at the Bible in a new light. Instead of studying it to use it as a weapon, just read it. By saying to stay out of the Old Testament, I am not saying that Jesus did away with the Old Law. He said that He came to fulfill it with a new Law. The law of love. Don't get hung-up on that statement either.
Will you take the challenge? What have you got to lose? You're not afraid are you? The God I want you to see doesn't threaten people or scare them with eternal damnation. Don't take anyone else's word for it. To thine ownself, be true. I don't see what it would hurt. You're spending all this time in the Bible anyway trying to disprove it. Wouldn't you like to be 110% certain? Try opening your heart and saying to yourself, if there's anything to this, let me find out. Direct my path. If that's too big of a leap, just try reading it with an open mind and see if you can pick up on the personality of Jesus. Or at least realize maybe God's not so bad of a guy, after all. For the really hard core of you, I expect recrimination and the like, but I still hope you give it a try. There are people on both sides that aren't going to change, no matter what comes to light or doesn't. I really do want to hear the outcome. I will wait for a few posts to come in and review them.
Here's a suggestion, even supposed christians take things out of context, or they mistakenly see a period, where there is a question mark. Whenever you are reading the Bible, ask yourself these questions; who's talking? who are they talking to? what is being said? and how does it apply to me, or does it apply to me. For example; Jesus made some remarks meant for the Israeli nation that wasn't meant for everyone. One, "Pray ye that it doesn't happen on the Sabbath." Why would He specifically be talking to the Jews and not the Christians? Because, under the Mosaic Law, a Jew can't travel on the Sabbath. A Christian can. If this calamity falls on a Sabbath, it will fall to a Jewish person's "lot of woe."

Mod Edit: All caps title only.

[edit on 11-8-2007 by UM_Gazz]

I am a confirmed Luthern. I am also Agnostic. I took the challenge long ago and won.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
janasstar, iq is something highly flawed as a measurement of intelligence. i know this because i've taken iq tests and gotten a 30 point difference between them (that's the difference between 90 and 120, below average to above average).

now, intelligence has nothing to do with how delusional one can be. religion is an inherent delusion.

Yes madness we get that you think your all so wise. how coy though that used a response to jans post to slip in the old my IQ is.....blah blah blah.

now, i could make comments on faith, but so many great thinkers have done so before me.

"Faith is believing what you know ain't so." - Mark Twain

"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." -Friedrich Nietzsche

"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." -Friedrich Nietzsche

"Faith is essentially intolerant ... essentially because necessarily bound up with faith is the illusion that one's cause is also God's cause." -Ludwig Feuerbach

"Faith is a wondrous thing; it is not only capable of moving mountains, but also of making you believe that a herring is a race horse." -Arthur Koestler

Such wise thinkers.... Mark Twain the original travelling hick.... and Nietzsche... hes an insane lunatic " behold everyone make way for the superman he yeld at the trapeze artist but the trapeze artist thought " blah blah blah... you know its funny you think religion is all hokey pokey and illusioned yet you listen to philosophisors all there doing is making things up for the basis of hearing them selves speak. they are comtemplating on things..... you know your not the first person who Nietzs made go crazy..lol...

now here's a truth on how to live:

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it." -Buddha (emphasis added)

religions, all of them, do not agree with reason.

Do you even know who Bhuddha is or why he is named Bhudda or even which Bhudda your quoting? Do you know why he was incarnated? Or what he did or why he said what he said?

[edit on 16-8-2007 by plague]

I have read the bible and that is why I am a fundamentalist agnostic.

It takes no time to realise the nonsense in this book - even New testament. The story is about Jesus trying to retake an (earthly) kingdom that belonged to his relative - David:
>> Why try to link Jesus by various generations (begot.., begot..) to David (unless you want to make a claim for his earthly kngdom)
>> Also look at the entrance to Jerusalem on a donkey - again reflecting Davids entry into the city (not as christians pretend to say that this is showing his humility).

Review the bible, I mean really review this document. e.g. The wedding at Canae -1st miracle, why did Jesus need to intervene? Wouldn't it be better if he made a brilliant speech saying that people did not need to get blind drunk to enjoy the party.

Now -if you are European - look at your village/city - what is the biggest building in your small village? Invariably it is the church a symbol of the power and dictatorship/stranglehold on the normal people. This can only be done by the child indoctrination.

As for "all people being equal" - religion is blissfully racist" on this one and breeds hatred like no other. We go to hell as we don't believe in a specific religion (atheists belive in no heaven or hell so idle threat). We must accept someones faith - with no question of its stupidity.

I could go on - but Richard Dawkins does this far more intellectually then me.

I have read the bible and that is why I am a fundamentalist agnostic.

It takes no time to realise the nonsense in this book - even New testament. The story is about Jesus trying to retake an (earthly) kingdom that belonged to his relative - David:
>> Why try to link Jesus by various generations (begot.., begot..) to David (unless you want to make a claim for his earthly kngdom)
>> Also look at the entrance to Jerusalem on a donkey - again reflecting Davids entry into the city (not as christians pretend to say that this is showing his humility).

Review the bible, I mean really review this document. e.g. The wedding at Canae -1st miracle, why did Jesus need to intervene? Wouldn't it be better if he made a brilliant speech saying that people did not need to get blind drunk to enjoy the party.

Now -if you are European - look at your village/city - what is the biggest building in your small village? Invariably it is the church a symbol of the power and dictatorship/stranglehold on the normal people. This can only be done by the child indoctrination.

As for "all people being equal" - religion is blissfully racist" on this one and breeds hatred like no other. We go to hell as we don't believe in a specific religion (atheists belive in no heaven or hell so idle threat). We must accept someones faith - with no question of its stupidity.

I could go on - but Richard Dawkins does this far more intellectually then me.

Whether I agree or not, I appreciate the new and different comments I'm seeing here. This forum was beginning to get awfully stale. Once again, I appreciate your comments. And I'll say this as a believer, some of you have the faith message all wrong, because you haven't experienced it. So, it's my contention that you can't be an authority on something you don't have full knowledge of. You're just taking someone else's word for it. As for myself, I have put faith behind the belief in the message. Have become born-again as a result. And let me tell you, there is no denying after that, there is something to it. And all the arguments in the world will never change my mind, because, 'I know in Whom I have believed.'

[edit on 08/11/2007 by janasstar]

I seldom post in these threads due to the bickering that they produce. I have never forced my religious beliefs on anyone. Yet I have been attacked by other posters who feel that they must force their beliefs (flying saucers, atheism, mental health, etc. . ) on me.

Why do Christians believe? For the non-Christian, no explanation is adequate. For the Christian, no explanation is necessary.

Originally posted by darkelf
I seldom post in these threads due to the bickering that they produce. I have never forced my religious beliefs on anyone. Yet I have been attacked by other posters who feel that they must force their beliefs (flying saucers, atheism, mental health, etc. . ) on me.

Why do Christians believe? For the non-Christian, no explanation is adequate. For the Christian, no explanation is necessary.

This is one of the best posts I've seen. But I would like to interject that my intention was not to force anything, and once again as I've said throughout the forum, The challenge should have been an invitation. Oddly enough, there doesn't seem to be an edit button for forum posts. You are stuck with what you post. So, I will be more careful in the future for sure. Jana

reply to post by plague

In response to Plague's quote, I couldn't have said it better myself.

I don't know how many times i have to repeat myself here. My statement about my IQ wasn't supposed to be part of the debate here, it was in answer to someone's insinuation that I was dumbed down and spoon-fed religion. Now, can we get past the IQ problem???? Geez!!!!
it was also inferred that I had not given other beliefs a fair shake and had not read other texts than the bible. If all my posts had been read, you would have seen what lead up to the statement. I have considered science and agnosticism, and even Eastern religions. I was 28 years old, when I chose total Christianity. Yes, I always believed in God and couldn't help it. I was just aware that He was. But I went through a period, that I was very angry at God. I tried to tune Him out. I looked up in the sky and cursed Him for everything He was worth. I blamed Him for the suicide of my lil sister and my older sister and every rotten thing that had ever happened to me. But I was unaware that there was another entity at work in the world. We are told, "For it is Satan who has come to steal, kill and destroy."


[edit on 08/11/2007 by janasstar]

[edit on 08/11/2007 by janasstar]

reply to post by janasstar


ok, can you respond to the rest of my post?

Originally posted by plague
Yes madness we get that you think your all so wise. how coy though that used a response to jans post to slip in the old my IQ is.....blah blah blah.

no, i don't think that i'm wise and i didn't tell you what my iq was, i just stated that i took several iq tests and got a difference of 30 points, i will not comment on what it was (no, the 90-120 comment was not a statement of my iq, it was an example of how vast the difference of 30 points was)

Such wise thinkers.... Mark Twain the original travelling hick....

yes, one of the greatest authors in american history was just a "travelling hick"

[qoute]
and Nietzsche... hes an insane lunatic " behold everyone make way for the superman he yeld at the trapeze artist but the trapeze artist thought " blah blah blah...


yeah.... you're clearly unfamiliar with his works.

you know its funny you think religion is all hokey pokey and illusioned yet you listen to philosophisors all there doing is making things up for the basis of hearing them selves speak. they are comtemplating on things.....

no, they make claims based on logic. they start with a thought and follow a logical and reasoned thought process.

you know your not the first person who Nietzs made go crazy..lol...

..i'm not crazy.
and if anything is going to make me go crazy it's your erratic quoting errors.

Do you even know who Bhuddha is or why he is named Bhudda or even which Bhudda your quoting?

i'm quoting the Gautama Buddha.
i know who he was historically, i do not really acknowledge the spiritual attachements they put on him

Do you know why he was incarnated?

he wasn't born for any specific reason, like the rest of us he just was born.

Or what he did or why he said what he said?

i know his story quite well, he said what he said to find a new path aside from the orthodox hindu tradition...
he ended up founding something that can't quite be called a religion but isn't without religious aspects.

Originally posted by janasstar
reply to post by plague

 

In response to Plague's quote, I couldn't have said it better myself.

I don't know how many times i have to repeat myself here. My statement about my IQ wasn't supposed to be part of the debate here, it was in answer to someone's insinuation that I was dumbed down and spoon-fed religion. Now, can we get past the IQ problem???? Geez!!!!
it was also inferred that I had not given other beliefs a fair shake and had not read other texts than the bible. If all my posts had been read, you would have seen what lead up to the statement. I have considered science and agnosticism, and even Eastern religions. I was 28 years old, when I chose total Christianity. Yes, I always believed in God and couldn't help it. I was just aware that He was. But I went through a period, that I was very angry at God. I tried to tune Him out. I looked up in the sky and cursed Him for everything He was worth. I blamed Him for the suicide of my lil sister and my older sister and every rotten thing that had ever happened to me. But I was unaware that there was another entity at work in the world. We are told, "For it is Satan who has come to steal, kill and destroy."


[edit on 08/11/2007 by janasstar]

[edit on 08/11/2007 by janasstar]

I see I will have to say this again.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

yeah.... you're clearly unfamiliar with his works.

No actually im somewhat familiar enough to realise what rubbish his pieces are. My friend has a whole catalogue of his stuff. I find the superman one very entertaining, and yes i realise i quoted it wrong but i couldnt really give a care.

Do you even know who Bhuddha is or why he is named Bhudda or even which Bhudda your quoting?

i'm quoting the Gautama Buddha.
i know who he was historically, i do not really acknowledge the spiritual attachements they put on him

Do you know why he was incarnated?

he wasn't born for any specific reason, like the rest of us he just was born.

Or what he did or why he said what he said?

i know his story quite well, he said what he said to find a new path aside from the orthodox hindu tradition...
he ended up founding something that can't quite be called a religion but isn't without religious aspects.

"tatah kalau sampravrtte
sammohaya sura-dvisam
buddho namnanjana-sutah
kikatesu bhavisyati"

Then in the beginning of Kali-yuga the lord will appear as Lord Buddha, the son of Anjana in the province of Gaya just for the purpose of deluding those who are envious of the faithful theist.

Srimad -Bhagavatam
cantos 1, chapter 3, text 24

This is from the Bhagavatam and it references the coming of Lord Buddha as an incarnation of the supreme lord Krishna. When the real Buddha appeared in this known universe the hindu religion was not established as he came in the Vedic time frame for the purpose of derailling those who were using the Vedas to kill and eat animals along with persecuting the people of that time. His main and really only stance was that we should not kill animals. That until the sacrificing of animals ceased to exsist then man will never know peace.He renounced all his princly possessions and meditated under the tree for 40 years with out food or water contemplating why we die and why we suffer and how to stop these things. When he was able to complete this awsome austerity
people realised he was the lord incarnate. They then named him Buddha which means one with intelligence, it is taken from the Sanskrit word buddhi which means intelligence. He was then brought before the Vedantist (Brahman leaders in charge of the Vedas) and asked to tell about the supreme knowledge of the absolute and the soul. Buddha replied ....... maybe theres a soul maybe not..maybe theres a god maybe not. maybe this and that.. He gave no yes nor nos only vague statements. He then denounced the Vedas so that he could stop all that was wrong until he could return as Lord Chaitanya and start the true Sampradiac succession over. He then returned to his meditation where at that time some people seeking his guidance came they became his 12 disciples. This is Buddhas story.