A Challenge For Non-Believers Of Christianity

Originally posted by janasstar
I see I will have to say this again.

you're saying that a half response to my post is enough to reply to it all? what about the many instances of misogyny that i have pointed out?
oh, i see the tactic, you're just going to ignore them.


now plague, please learn proper quoting protocol... it's just a pain to respond to this stuff when you don't use it

Originally posted by plague
No actually im somewhat familiar enough to realise what rubbish his pieces are. My friend has a whole catalogue of his stuff. I find the superman one very entertaining, and yes i realise i quoted it wrong but i couldnt really give a care.

you'd have to actually read a full work of his to be able to determine whether or not it's rubbish.
i'd recomend beyond good and evil, it's not too long.
and then you'd have to provide logical reasoning to why it is rubbish

what happened to all those other points?

(insert buddha's story here as i didn't want to waste room quoting it all)

yes, i know it quite well

i'm seeing a lot of points dropped here...
mainly my misogyny one and the point i made on the fact that religion contradicts reason...

Oh I see that I'm going to have to read up on this myosogyny stuff, before madness is going to let up on me. Ok, I'll do my homework and get back to you, if it's that important.

I assume you are talking of misogyny in religion and not philosophy, since we're discussing religion. K, be right back.

""However, given that Mary Magdalene became a saint and was one of the first witnesses to the Resurrection of Jesus, many argue that Christianity has ultimately raised the status of women, despite the attitudes of some individuals. In the New Testament, Jesus treats women with respect, even going so far as to save a woman caught in adultery from stoning in John 8. The apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 5 states that wives belong to their husbands, and equally husbands belong to their wives. See the article on Christian feminism for a fuller discussion.""

I feel sure this wasn't what you wanted me to see in the misogynic viewpoint of the bible. But if you'll look, it's in the online wikipaedia. This is exactly what I mean about reading the bible with the carnal mind. You see? I don't see it the way that you do. The story of Adam and Eve that a lot of people miss, is that Eve was deceived, and Adam fell. But it's no cause for throwing stones, either way. Because God set about restoring man from that very moment. When we're born-again, God doesn't see male or female, he sees a spirit. I don't worship Him as a woman. I worship Him in spirit.

She shoots ...she scores. Dont worry though Madness is actually rather intelligent and will be back to hammer his point again and again. You gotta be pretty sharp to one up him... kinda fun trying though.

Yes I have listend to a few of his books on tape things (yes all the way thru) and so I can say with sound mind ...I think its rubbish.


I dont see how religion contradicts reason.


[edit on 16-8-2007 by plague]

Plague,
I'm sure he'll be back. I rather anticipate it. But thank God, He provided us with weapons of warfare. The helmet of salvation; the breastplate of righteousness; our faith is a shield, feet shod with the preparation of the gospel......

I address this to Madness,
Actually, I never really went in for a lot of this feminist stuff. I think it was one of the most singly damaging blows to the American family. I think it bore a few good accomplishments, like equal pay for equal work. But like a lot of things, it got carried way too far. I personally enjoyed the old-fashioned ways of the man being the man of the house, as long as he wasn't a dictator.
I love good manners. Having a door opened for me, or my cigarettes lit, or whatever good manners entail. But unfortunately, it was assumed that all women were sign-carrying, bra-burning feminists.
Some of the things that were said to the women in the new testament, was for a specific reason. Remember, in the opening of this post, I asked that you asked yourself, certain questions about "who was speaking, who were they speaking to, what was being said, and how does it apply to me, or does it apply to me?"
Here's an example. There was a specific city, where the men were taking wives, who had previously been involved in witchcraft, palm reading, etc. They were asked just in this specific instance, to remain silent in the church and learn from their husbands. It was not meant to be sexist. It wasn't meant to spawn off whole religious sects of doctrinal beliefs on this issue.
I think that only an unbeliever or an un-reborn person could see the bible as misogynic

[edit on 08/11/2007 by janasstar]

[edit on 08/11/2007 by janasstar]

janasstar, what about the dozen or more passages i cited as being openly misogynistic in the bible? you're going to have to show me evidence to support the silence being a product of their former lives as witches and needing for reeducation.

and again, my point of faith not agreeing with reason, what about that?

[edit on 8/17/07 by madnessinmysoul]

Originally posted by plague

I dont see how religion contradicts reason.

you lack proof, you believe in something that has as much evidence to support its existence as santa, the easter bunny, thor, the flying spaghetti monster, the invisible pink unicorn, osiris, amaterasu, zeus, and baal....
yet you would dismiss those as not existing.

reason, evidence, facts. religion lacks them all

Madness,
You're always giving me homework. There is a reason that I didn't give you chapter and verse. Get a concordance or a bible with a concordance, and look it up. As far as all those instances you gave me that you purport to be misogynic, I have read all those before and I have never found it to be sexist towards women if you read it as I suggested. Who is talking? Who are they talking to? What is being said? How does it apply to me? Or does it apply to me? Have you done that?

Originally posted by janasstar
Madness,
You're always giving me homework. There is a reason that I didn't give you chapter and verse. Get a concordance or a bible with a concordance, and look it up. As far as all those instances you gave me that you purport to be misogynic, I have read all those before and I have never found it to be sexist towards women if you read it as I suggested. Who is talking? Who are they talking to? What is being said? How does it apply to me? Or does it apply to me? Have you done that?

ok, how is telling a wife to submit to the husband not misogynistics?
how is telling a crowd that women need to pray with their heads covered or have their hair shaved off not misogynstic?

honestly, context doesn't seem to suggest anything other than the fact that the bible is misogynistic.

One more thing madness,
We're never going to see it the same way. Because I'm reading it with a born-again spirit, and when I read it, it's for the purpose of spending time with the Lord and knowing Him better. So, I guess this challenge has been pointless. I didn't realize that starting out. But after hearing from many posters from many different view points, I see this now. So, my suggestions aren't going to change anything.
To come to the Lord, it takes a willingness to believe that He is, and to want a life change. My error was in assuming that everyone did want this. So, it has been a learning experience for me. I say this with all honesty. This forum has exposed me to view points I never heard before. Even though some pierced my heart, and some depressed me for a time, I must say; I am wiser for the experience.

this has been expressed in these pages i'm sure, but i just wanted to say that I also grew up christian. i think it taught me some good life lessons and morals, but i remember questioning the stories at a very young age. the only thing that kept me into it through my teen years was the fear that "god would be angry" if i let myself question my faith.

at one point that really clicked for me and once i got past that barrier i was able to think for myself and i decided that it was all an unnecessary waste of time. christianity has been used for nothing but control for a very long time. keep people in line. make the fear of god strong enough that they won't WANT to commit a crime. saves money on police and at the same time we get these people to hand over a piece of their paycheck!

i am thankful for what i took away from it but it's nothing that i couldn't have been taught from good parents (which i had.) i've been free-thinking and agnostic/atheist/whatever for several years now and i can't say i've seen any decline in fortune or "blessings".

i feel i have my own relationship with god, but i tend to think of him more far abstractly than "some dude in a chair" as my wife puts it. i consider my spiritual journey to find out who god is for ME. i think that's far more gratifying and relavent then blindly believing what other people tell you.

[edit]

Oh yeah, and i agree that if you have to be selective about the bible then that really doesn't help your case.

[edit on 17-8-2007 by an0maly33]

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Originally posted by janasstar
Madness,
As far as all those instances you gave me that you purport to be misogynic, I have read all those before and I have never found it to be sexist towards women if you read it as I suggested. Who is talking? Who are they talking to? What is being said? How does it apply to me? Or does it apply to me? Have you done that?

ok, how is telling a wife to submit to the husband not misogynistics?
how is telling a crowd that women need to pray with their heads covered or have their hair shaved off not misogynstic?

honestly, context doesn't seem to suggest anything other than the fact that the bible is misogynistic.

Once again, you're misquoting a verse, or leaving part of it out. That particular verse also sid for husbands to submit themselves to their wives.
Insofar as the place where you're talking about the women covering their heads; I think you're talking about the verse where there was a question mark, and many texts have inserted a period. The apostle Paul says, "A woman's hair is her glory? If that's so, then she should keep her head covered, so that she doesn't outshine her husband."
Is that the place you're speaking of? I'm working right now, so I can't get to a bible. So let me know if that's correct.

reply to post by janasstar


this, for me was a telling point, You, as a self proclaimed "Christian" made a Judgment about others, to me this is the Worse sin, even more so then Murder or theft, you put YOURSELF above God and judged others.

I've read the bible, both old and new testaments in a number of forms ( meaning not just the King James Version [ BTW look up the definition of the word Version ])

there is no historical proof of a "Jesus" in history, does it detract from a good moral sory? no not in the least, but to say it's any more relevant then any other story of morals is absurd.

a rose by any other name still smells as sweet

what ever moral code you choose will be how you live, whether it is Christianity, Budism, Muslim or Jew

it does not make one "better" than any other, or none at all

Originally posted by janasstar
Once again, you're misquoting a verse, or leaving part of it out. That particular verse also sid for husbands to submit themselves to their wives.

now you're just making stuff up, it doesn't say for a husband to submit to his wife, only to love her.

it tells the wife to submit and the husband to love..
quite the unequal partnership

Insofar as the place where you're talking about the women covering their heads; I think you're talking about the verse where there was a question mark, and many texts have inserted a period. The apostle Paul says, "A woman's hair is her glory? If that's so, then she should keep her head covered, so that she doesn't outshine her husband."
Is that the place you're speaking of? I'm working right now, so I can't get to a bible. So let me know if that's correct.

well, i could be talking about one or two places, but here's one in particular

1 Corinthians

11:4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
11:6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
11:8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.
11:9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

Boy you are tough Madness! As I said, can't get to a bible, right this second, but I will look into that. Geez! You're keeping me on my toes!

Originally posted by thedigirati
reply to post by janasstar

 

this, for me was a telling point, You, as a self proclaimed "Christian" made a Judgment about others, to me this is the Worse sin, even more so then Murder or theft, you put YOURSELF above God and judged others.

I've read the bible, both old and new testaments in a number of forms ( meaning not just the King James Version [ BTW look up the definition of the word Version ])

there is no historical proof of a "Jesus" in history, does it detract from a good moral sory? no not in the least, but to say it's any more relevant then any other story of morals is absurd.

a rose by any other name still smells as sweet

what ever moral code you choose will be how you live, whether it is Christianity, Budism, Muslim or Jew

it does not make one "better" than any other, or none at all

My apologies if you disagree with me, or if something I said, offended you. That definitely was not my intention.

this is for madness, who I am quickly becoming fond of. If nothing else; He is consistent, persistent and steadfast. I thought you might enjoy this one. Madness. From an outside source of course. A crusty old man walks into the local First Baptist Church and says to
The secretary, "I would like to join this damn church."

The astonished woman replies, "I beg your pardon, sir.
I must have misunderstood you. What did you say?"

"Listen up, damn it. I said I want to join this damn church!"

"I'm very sorry sir, but that kind of language is not tolerated in this
church."

The secretary leaves her desk and goes into the pastor's study to inform
him of her situation. The pastor agrees that the secretary does not have
to listen to that foul language.

They both return to her office and the pastor asks the old geezer,

"Sir, what seems to be the problem here?"

"There is no damn problem," the man says. "I just won $200 million bucks
In the damn lottery and I want to join this damn church to get rid of
some of this damn money."

"I see," said the pastor. "And is this bitch giving you a hard time?"

What does hatred have anything to do with the catholic religion?!

You can have hatred of all sorts of things in your heart, regardless of if you read the bible, or are in a religion or not!


Christians hate gays. No, don't tell me your an "open-minded" christian, because according to your own pope, that doesn't even make you a christian anymore! Either stay with your gay hating friends, or join the people who have no particular religion.

If you are a "true" christian, then who the hell are you to moralize people?! You people spread intolerance and hatred against gays all the time! Their life is not hard enough as it is? You chrisitans have to tag them as demons, sinners, or whatever, too?! Not to mention christians very often spy on other christians to see if something they are wearing can be criticized! result? Frustration! Now where does that fit in a "hate-less" life? Nowhere! True christians also reject every new idea that doesn't fit with their own! And you arrogantly say that you know the "truth", while you refuse to evolve or even search for it?! Christians are exactly like atheists, in the inside it's all the same, just with different names! Dogmatic science vs. dogmatic religion. God vs. no God. Both are (usually) narrow-minded, and they are no better than eachother!



[edit on 17-8-2007 by Atlantix]