A Challenge For Non-Believers Of Christianity

Originally posted by saint4God
Were you expecting God to appear before you and say "Madness, you're on the wrong track, you MUST turn around and believe or else!" ?.

not at all... i was expecting a book of holy properties to contain something groundbreak.... or at least not hold the obvious prejudices of its earthly authors.

Then again, if you read Revelations, you know that time coming soon enough and by then it would be too late.

no, i know that the book is a clear allegory to early christian persecution under the roman empire.

No hellfire and damnation speech from me though (just being topical with Revelation), I know it would do no good.

Hope you had fun playing "book critic" but that wasn't the point of the exercise.

the point of the excercise was to find something that isn't there. it's clearly not there.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i have a confession to make. at the point where i first posted a reply to this thread i was in the middle of re-re-re-re-reading the NT... actually, i was at revelations. i just finished up (alright, it may have taken a while but i've been busy.)

nothing came to me, nothing happened. it's just the same as finishing any other poorly written book (honest assesment, the writing style isn't so nice).

NT review: 1 star (out of a possible 5)
not much good in it... and the little good that is had already been conceived of by others centuries earlier.

Madness, I might not have proven my point to you, but you have proven yours to me. I don't think there's much more I can say to you on this issue, if anything. One of the reasons I would have liked to have had an edit button would have been to maybe suggest the 4 gospels. But that would even be fruitless to some. Because Jesus gave us the answer to that. He said that, some have hardened their hearts. I can't fix that. The damage has been done here from the start and I can't fix it. Over and over I've had people suggest to me, that THEY wouldn't have made the mistake in the first place.
Maybe we should put fallible people up in front of firing squads and get rid of them, and just leave the perfect people. What do you think of that? Would that fix it?

[edit on 08/11/2007 by janasstar]

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
not at all... i was expecting a book of holy properties to contain something groundbreak.... or at least not hold the obvious prejudices of its earthly authors.

no, i know that the book is a clear allegory to early christian persecution under the roman empire.

Then you went into Revelation with your own prejudices. The book does not state anything about Christian persecution under the roman empire (nor does it mean that). I find it interesting how you can point the finger and declare prejudices of others without seeing your own.

the point of the excercise was to find something that isn't there. it's clearly not there.

Not when you are going into it as a book critic with preconceived notions that its related to something it isn't (Roman persecution). You've clearly illustrated Jan's point.

I have no interest in posting here, but have been guided to making a few statements.

Who are God? Is God a them? Are we the ones who made God singular?

The Bible is a collection of men's writings, some with an agenda and some telling things the way they are.

Why was God confused when the Jews wanted a King? Why could he not understand the need for us to be ruled?

If God was our root race of humans and heaven was the rest of the universe where the evil empire was not in control, how would that change your position?

Are we gladiators in this Earth Arena, killing each other for the sport of the evil empire run by Satan?

Religion, is that a sinnister idea cooked up by twisting the understanding to promote a specific agenda?

What if there is a fourth dimension, or even a tenth, or they were not limited?

It is plain that Jesus did not condone the jewish religion of the day. Do you think he would condone any religion in practice today?

What is God to you?

To me, God is where I came from. If you think of God as being all, then we are merely parts of God. Does that not make me God also? Any being coming to Earh from Heaven would be considered God, yes? What if there are billions of beings in Heaven, would they all be God? Yes!

Why did God not understand the need for the Jews to have a King?

[edit on 21-8-2007 by win 52]

It's good to finally have some help here. I feel like I'm finally getting some strength back, thanks to you and a few other loving Christians who have decided to step in and realize that I really was trying to do good here. I even had a skeptic realize that. Wasn't that inspiring? Also, Have you noticed that I have to use the edit button a lot in my posts??? :-)

[edit on 08/11/2007 by janasstar]

Hey win 52, I believe Jan's challenge would answer those questions you have. I agree the New Testament is quite a series of books, so I would recommend John if it's your first run through. Matthew is my fav. of the gospels though. I'd be glad to answer those questions if they're still unclear afterwards.

If Saint4God is willing, I would like for him to answer the deeper questions here, temporarily. What I'm about to say is not to derive sympathy or anything else, but just for explanation. I am experiencing vertigo, and it's causing me some mental confusion. Is probably temporary, am following up on it. But don't want to run risk of answering inappropriately. This is much too important.
Maybe I should have stated more heavily that Saint4God's input is always welcome, not just temporarily. I would just like for him to field any 'IN DEPTH' questions or attacks that are directed at me.Jana

[edit on 08/11/2007 by janasstar]

[edit on 08/11/2007 by janasstar]

Originally posted by janasstar
If Saint4God is willing, I would like for him

I'm a him? Are you sure?

Originally posted by janasstar
to answer the deeper questions here, temporarily. What I'm about to say is not to derive sympathy or anything else, but just for explanation. I am experiencing vertigo, and it's causing me some mental confusion. Is probably temporary, am following up on it. But don't want to run risk of answering inappropriately. This is much too important. Jana

Sure, I'll do as you ask. I'd recommend hot tea and jazz music for the vertigo. Take deep breaths, God is in charge. I'll answer the questions without scripture but will substantiate if anyone likes. Usually when speaking with a non-believer, quoting a book doesn't do much good.

Originally posted by win 52
Who are God?

He has said He is the Beginning and the End, the Creator, the "I Am", meaning that He is greater, larger, the origin and the infinite of all things.

Originally posted by win 52
Is God a them? Are we the ones who made God singular?

There has been some Genesis confusion in terms. God says "Let us make man in our image" and thus people immediately assume there are other gods. If one reads further, God states there are no other gods. Only pieces of wood, silver, gold or stone that people call "gods". So the question begs, "who's he talking to"? Could it be the angels? Christ? Christ did say "before Abraham, I am" and Abraham was the guy in Genesis so it makes a bit more reasonable sense.

Originally posted by win 52
Why was God confused when the Jews wanted a King? Why could he not understand the need for us to be ruled?

He did, the book of Judges best illustrates that. Humankind had to learn the way to rule is over oneself first, and the way to serve is through God Himself. Christ is king, but he wasn't a warrior like the zionists expected, nor an isolated enlightened one as another group expected. He was, however, exactly what we needed. Sometimes what we want/expect are not what we need.

Originally posted by win 52
If God was our root race of humans and heaven was the rest of the universe where the evil empire was not in control, how would that change your position?

God is in control, but He's not mandating our every action nor dismissing evil from our eyes. It's an important part of the learning process to do and see for ourselves.

Originally posted by win 52
Are we gladiators in this Earth Arena, killing each other for the sport of the evil empire run by Satan?

Nope, at least we're not supposed to. Christ said to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. Our warfare as believer is the spiritual one. We need to direct others to God who can save them through belief in Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by win 52
Religion, is that a sinnister idea cooked up by twisting the understanding to promote a specific agenda?

Many are. We have to guard our spirit carefully and seek the truth continuously.

Originally posted by win 52
What if there is a fourth dimension, or even a tenth, or they were not limited?

Certainly possible.

Originally posted by win 52
It is plain that Jesus did not condone the jewish religion of the day. Do you think he would condone any religion in practice today?

Jesus was a Jew. What he did was fulfill the prophecies spoken in places like Isaiah and carried the belief forward to what it should be. He stated he was the fulfillment of the law, that the law had lost its purpose among the religious leaders (Pharisees) of the day and he was there to pay the penalty for our sins (our misguided mistakes) so that we may have eternal life should we accept him as our saviour.

Originally posted by win 52
What is God to you?

He's the one who let me fall because I wanted to, then helped me up when I asked for help. I wanted to be free of a problem and he went much further, giving me eternal life. He's blunt and told me I was clearly wrong in my thinking from time to time, yet has never turned away when I was seeking his guidance.

Originally posted by win 52
To me, God is where I came from. If you think of God as being all, then we are merely parts of God. Does that not make me God also?

Nope. Sorry to disappoint.

Originally posted by win 52
Any being coming to Earh from Heaven would be considered God, yes?

Nope, sorry to disappoint.

Originally posted by win 52
What if there are billions of beings in Heaven, would they all be God? Yes!

No again, though Heaven contains a lot of beings who are holy. Among those are angels. Revelation tells of believers/saints who also occupy the realm.


[edit on 21-8-2007 by saint4God]

reply to post by saint4God


I stand corrected!!! No, I am not sure. I am making one of those famous ASSumptions! My apologies. Hope I haven't offended. But thank you for your input here, and your suggestions on the vertigo. I have faith that it will pass. It's just a little frightening, and a bit of a pain in the rear, if u know what I mean?
Just wanted to add a little humor here; I went for a MRI of my brain yesterday. The results will be back in a few days. I can picture my DR. trying to read it and saying, "WHAT BRAIN???"


[edit on 08/11/2007 by janasstar]

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by Niall197
A legend passed down through the ages ?

Nope.

Don't be so sure.

You cannot refute that MUCH earlier mystery religions held the same savior archetype before the inception of Christianity. Jesus like other mystery religion God's are a personification of the Sun.

Originally posted by saint4God
There are speculations, but the date was settled upon because different townspeople were celebrating holidays at different times.

...nevertheless, I see joy in celebrating Christ's birth.

Is the date of his birth more important than the fact he was born? Or what he did for us?

In a way yes, that is if you'd like to find out the origins of the religion you profess to hold as definitive truth . Do you actually believe it to be a coincidence that his birth falls on the same birth date of pagan Gods before him?

The Sun being most influential of the heavenly Gods was thus the most popular one to worship. In the ancient mystery cults/religions the Sun was "reborn" when at it's lowest point in the sky, which was the winter solstice of December 25th. The Sun dies for three days and is reborn on the 25th.

The winter solstice date of the 25th of December was taken by many ancient Gods long before Christ among other things.

- Attis was born Dec 25 to the virgin, Nana. He was eventually sacrificed as an adult.

- Dionysus (savior-god) born Dec 25.

- Osiris, sacrificed savior God born Dec 25.

- Sol Invictus got Saturnalia (Saturn festival), which was celebrated (wildly and usually ended with a human sacrifice) from Dec- 17-23 by the Romans.

Yet all of those God's are considered mythical...but with Jesus it's considered a factual??

Take Mithraism for example, the major competing religion at the time Christianity was being formed and spread to the public. Mithraism held almost the exact same ritualistic practices (baptism, crosses..etc.) that Christians do today. Consequently Mithra was born on December 25th, and was also crucified.

"He who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that he will be made on with me and I with him, the same shall not know salvation."

Sound familiar?

That's not from Jesus it was taken from an inscription to Mithra. Son of God or Sun God, it all seems pulled from the same ancient "pagan" sources. Its the same God repackaged over and over for the masses with all the dates appropriated and the rituals reclaimed.

If you don't mind or care to find out why the date was chosen then you certainly shouldn't try and break down the "Bunny" in the Easter celebration.

I don't say that with hate in my heart but with the knowledge that if someone has a religion that brings them peace of mind and respect for others I say enjoy yourselves...but don't use it to be condescending to non-believers or trample the religions of others and claim yours to be the only truth. That's when I say...your truth is actually an amalgam of the same sources as the people you call lost, pagans, heathens or what have you.

Before Christmas it was "Merry Mithras", and "Happy Saturnalia"!

Originally posted by saint4God
Then you went into Revelation with your own prejudices. The book does not state anything about Christian persecution under the roman empire

allegories don't tend to be straightforward.

(nor does it mean that).

so you're now directly in the author's head.
i'm talking about how i view the book of revelations within the context of its time, looking at who it was being written for. it's clearly not a book of apocalyptic prophecy made by a religion who wasn't sure it would survive the next 100 years

I find it interesting how you can point the finger and declare prejudices of others without seeing your own.

there's a difference between me looking at a book in its historical context and a bunch of iron age morons saying that god > man > woman.

Not when you are going into it as a book critic with preconceived notions that its related to something it isn't (Roman persecution).

again, you're stating that you're 100% sure of what the author meant, i'm looking at the book in a historical sense. and i only made the critical review afterwards as a bit of a mark of comedy, that's not how i went into the text of the NT

and once more, i'm talking the NT as a whole. i found nothing there.

You've clearly illustrated Jan's point.

no, i haven't. i've read the NT many times, each with an open mind.... ok, all but 1 time with an open mind... that time i was just building up arguments... but i've read it with an open mind every time... and i came across nothing
this time, i once more read it with an open mind.

i have a question for you, saint. have you tried to read the koran with an open mind looking for the loving and peaceful god that moderate muslims exalt?

I ask this question of saint4God. Do you see what I put up with? Sometimes I think Madness might have singlehandedly brought on my condition (just kidding!) He is relentless.

Originally posted by saint4God

He has said He is the Beginning and the End, the Creator, the "I Am", meaning that He is greater, larger, the origin and the infinite of all things.

I know that is what we are led to believe he said. I for one didn't hear it that way, that idea was placed by some religion. The facts are still up for debate. You can easily substitute a plural in every hole. Actually that makes a whole lot more sense in other applications.

Don't get me wrong, I have been in what I considered to be God's arms. I have never felt so much love in all the rest of my 55 years put together.

I know some of you feel like you have all the pattented answers. Try to think on your own a bit more. Try not to spout ideas about things, some man/woman has put in your head.

There has been some Genesis confusion in terms. God says "Let us make man in our image" and thus people immediately assume there are other gods. If one reads further, God states there are no other gods. Only pieces of wood, silver, gold or stone that people call "gods". So the question begs, "who's he talking to"? Could it be the angels? Christ? Christ did say "before Abraham, I am" and Abraham was the guy in Genesis so it makes a bit more reasonable sense.

Still not really clear. The more I studied the Bible, the more I came to think in grander terms. I am also taking a shot at Moses here. Was he not responsible for recording or at least starting the record keeping? There was a succession of transcribers who could easily have slanted the work to suit an agenda. We seem to be full of them these days, why is it so hard to think that didn't apply then.

In fact, there was a play written in 2000 BC making light about one Pharoah blotting out the work of a previous tennant in a toomb, and making it look like it was his doing.

I am all for there being one God, but at this point it is not really that clear. To me, God is still the one guiding me, but I now believe it is the collective conciousness of our root race. Kind of like when it says God is in you.

He did, the book of Judges best illustrates that. Humankind had to learn the way to rule is over oneself first, and the way to serve is through God Himself. Christ is king, but he wasn't a warrior like the zionists expected, nor an isolated enlightened one as another group expected. He was, however, exactly what we needed. Sometimes what we want/expect are not what we need.

What do you mean humankind? People had been around for thousands of years, they had rulers before that. This was the handiwork of Lucifer. The people demanded him to set up rulers, because they were used to having them. God couldn't understand why they needed them. People are suposed to act with one conciousness, the will of God, the will of the people, God is within me, God is within you, etc....

Christ is King, what about God? Oh, God and Christ are one, oh, God and I are one.

The bottom line is Jesus was killed by the popular religion of the day, because they didn't like what he had to say. His message was not popular. Can you be sure his message was what we can read about in the current text. I know there is a lot of good stuff in the Bible, and we shouldn't discount the whole because a few things don't quite line up.

God is in control, but He's not mandating our every action nor dismissing evil from our eyes. It's an important part of the learning process to do and see for ourselves.

I guess Lucifer is the guy pulling our strings these days.

Nope, at least we're not supposed to. Christ said to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. Our warfare as believer is the spiritual one. We need to direct others to God who can save them through belief in Jesus Christ.

I say look around you. Are people killing people...etc...need I go on. It is exactly like a Gladiator arena. Lucifer is the guy yielding the whip. God is merely an observer at this point. He will set up his kingdom, now who will all be there, a bunch of grovelling pesants and one master, or a group of equals?

Originally posted by win 52
It is plain that Jesus did not condone the jewish religion of the day. Do you think he would condone any religion in practice today?

Jesus was a Jew. What he did was fulfill the prophecies spoken in places like Isaiah and carried the belief forward to what it should be. He stated he was the fulfillment of the law, that the law had lost its purpose among the religious leaders (Pharisees) of the day and he was there to pay the penalty for our sins (our misguided mistakes) so that we may have eternal life should we accept him as our saviour.

Of course he was, even Kings from the east were there for his birth. How did a bunch of "heathens" find Jesus, and know who he was. They were more in tune than the Jews were, and all they wanted to do was kill him, his whole life. It was only through the grace of God(The collective will of our root race) that he accomplished his mission.

Originally posted by win 52
What is God to you?

He's the one who let me fall because I wanted to, then helped me up when I asked for help. I wanted to be free of a problem and he went much further, giving me eternal life. He's blunt and told me I was clearly wrong in my thinking from time to time, yet has never turned away when I was seeking his guidance.

I guess we are thinking of the same guy.

Originally posted by win 52
To me, God is where I came from. If you think of God as being all, then we are merely parts of God. Does that not make me God also?

Nope. Sorry to disappoint.

Are you so sure? Could that idea of having some one rule over you be a by-product of thousands of years under the whip, yielded by Lucifer?

Originally posted by win 52
Any being coming to Earh from Heaven would be considered God, yes?

Nope, sorry to disappoint.

Jesus? God? Are there any other ones who came to Earth from heaven that the bible records?

Originally posted by win 52
What if there are billions of beings in Heaven, would they all be God? Yes!

No again, though Heaven contains a lot of beings who are holy. Among those are angels. Revelation tells of believers/saints who also occupy the realm.

Ok, you got me on the Angels. I often wondered if it was an Angel who's arms I was in, but the voice sounded like God's voice to me. I have also been called an Angel, not because I played base ball, but rather because of what I do for people.

Believers and saints, they are from Earth.

I am not trying to derail this thread, and I do not feel like bantering with the negative people who will pile pooh on anything to do with this topic. I also know the OP had good intentions in starting this thread.

I merely popped in to give another perspective. I believe we are on the verge of seeing for ourselves, what it is all about. No more hidden agendas. In fact, I am working towards that end with help from God & our root race.

Furthermore, why did the OP want us to ignore the old testiment?

Does that put a bad light on the message? Why?

In my opinion, the old testiment is corrupted by the writers to put fear into people. They say the fear of God. Well, I am not affraid of God no matter what bad things I have done in the past. Those have all been washed away, and never can be used against me again.

The scriptures are not consistent with their message. That leads me to believe the work is corrupted by humans and slanted to lead people in a certain direction. Some of the messages therein are not corrupted, but it does get hard to sort it out with missing information. That leaves us to question the whole idea around religion and how we practice it today.

Saturday is the day of rest, in the Universe. What day do you rest on?

Originally posted by janasstar
I can't help but wonder what the results would be, if the non-believers, agnostics and atheists would take a certain amount of time (the amount will be up to the individual), and wipe all the hate from their hearts,

Instantly you've guarenteed that the group of people you are attacking.. sorry.. 'helping' are on the defence. Atheist, christian, pagen whetever; no-one likes being told their hearts are filled with hate. Glass houses..
Hey look! You've just given us a modern day demonstration of throwing stones! What would Jesus say do you think.. ?

or as much as is possible. Forget about every Christian or so-called christian they ever met,

..and here you assume that we judge all christians purely on those we've met previously..

steer clear of the Old-Testament,

Why? Jesus is meant to save us from the original sin of Adam and Eve. That was the whole point of him.. you know.. dieing for our sins? Never mind.. :shk:

and look at the Bible in a new light. Instead of studying it to use it as a weapon, just read it.

Another judgement. Believe it or not atheists and other non christians are capable of reading doctrine objectively. Your assertion that we only read it to be malicious is truly offensive.

By saying to stay out of the Old Testament, I am not saying that Jesus did away with the Old Law. He said that He came to fulfill it with a new Law.

but you just told us to steer clear of it?
Oh I see.. full marks for giving him credit for that little pearl of wisdom.

The law of love. Don't get hung-up on that statement either.

So you don't want us to be loving..?

Will you take the challenge? What have you got to lose?

My sense of dignity and self respect. I do not need a spiritual mediator or moral counsel and if I did I certainly would not be seeking it from someone as presumptious and ignorant as yourself. Work on your own stuff before you start pressuming the moral high ground above complete strangers.

[edit on 22-8-2007 by riley]

Originally posted by saint4God
.... Christ is king, but he wasn't a warrior like the zionists expected, nor an isolated enlightened one as another group expected.

"Zionists"? Zionism is a political movement that started in 19th century Europe, well after Jesus. There is a very clear definition of what the messiah is supposed to be in the Torah.

Originally posted by saint4God
Jesus was a Jew.

From a Jewish perspective, he was a heretic, but you're right.

Originally posted by saint4God
What he did was fulfill the prophecies spoken in places like Isaiah and carried the belief forward to what it should be.

Not really. He didn't fulfill many of the requirements, as set forth in the Torah: www.jewsforjudaism.com...

Originally posted by saint4God
He stated he was the fulfillment of the law, that the law had lost its purpose among the religious leaders (Pharisees) of the day....

The Pharisees get such a bad rap. They were the liberal reformers of their day; the Saducees were the corrupt ones, and Roman collaborators to boot.

I'm not trying to offend, but I do get annoyed at the constant attempts by fundamentalist Christians to convert everyone to their way of thinking. If someone is of a different religion, or no religion, that's really their business.

I don't believe any one religion has a monopoly on "the truth", even my own.

Originally posted by riley

My sense of dignity and self respect. I do not need a spiritual mediator or moral counsel and if I did I certainly would not be seeking it from someone as presumptious and ignorant as yourself. Work on your own stuff before you start pressuming the moral high ground above complete strangers.

Riley, there is no need for you to attack the OP in this manner. I might suggest the op is working on stuff.

When a person is touched by the positive messages in the Bible, they naturally want to share that feeling with others. It is something that is hard to explain, if you have never been in the arms of God.

I respect the OP for the courage it takes to make a stand on this type of position.

However, the complexity of the material, strewed with human intervention in the form of promoting certain agendas, makes the ground a bit shakey, at best.

For the factual answers, you need to request the information from the source. It is available to anyone who askes.

Originally posted by janasstar
I stand corrected!!! No, I am not sure. I am making one of those famous ASSumptions! My apologies. Hope I haven't offended. But thank you for your input here, and your suggestions on the vertigo. I have faith that it will pass. It's just a little frightening, and a bit of a pain in the rear, if u know what I mean?

Just wanted to add a little humor here; I went for a MRI of my brain yesterday. The results will be back in a few days. I can picture my DR. trying to read it and saying, "WHAT BRAIN???"

the reason why I find your posts refreshing is because they're no-holds-barred. What you think/feel is what's on the screen. Most of the time people are so vague and calculated the meaning is often lost.

Originally posted by lee anoma
Yet all of those God's are considered mythical...but with Jesus it's considered a factual??

Sound familiar?

Been through all this before ad nauseum on a thread more topically related. Feel free to read my responses there.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
no, i haven't.

I don't know why you think I'd enter into a bickerfest.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i have a question for you, saint. have you tried to read the koran with an open mind looking for the loving and peaceful god that moderate muslims exalt?

Yes. And more recently had been rereading verses for reference. Unfortunately the god of the Quran is not the same God spoken of in the Bible. It takes a side-by-side comparison to see why.

[edit on 22-8-2007 by saint4God]