A Challenge For Non-Believers Of Christianity

Originally posted by win 52
I am also taking a shot at Moses here. Was he not responsible for recording or at least starting the record keeping?

He was acredited for writing the first 5 books of the Bible, but I have my doubts on Exodus and Leviticus. I could be wrong.

Originally posted by win 52
What do you mean humankind?

Women and men.

Originally posted by win 52
I say look around you. Are people killing people...etc...need I go on. It is exactly like a Gladiator arena. Lucifer is the guy yielding the whip.

Some Christians would agree with you, others wouldn't.

Originally posted by win 52
God is merely an observer at this point. He will set up his kingdom, now who will all be there, a bunch of grovelling pesants and one master, or a group of equals?

Neither.

Originally posted by win 52
I guess we are thinking of the same guy.

Good deal ^_^

Originally posted by win 52
Are you so sure?

Yep.

Originally posted by win 52
Could that idea of having some one rule over you be a by-product of thousands of years under the whip, yielded by Lucifer?

Check it out. The Bible does say "Test Everything." I've already had my dialogue with him and he has nothing new to say to me.

Originally posted by win 52
Jesus? God? Are there any other ones who came to Earth from heaven that the bible records?

Yes. There is of course Satan who apparently is around, his followers, and half-angel-humans who were apparently destroyed by flood.

Originally posted by win 52
Ok, you got me on the Angels. I often wondered if it was an Angel who's arms I was in, but the voice sounded like God's voice to me.

Could be. Angels are the messengers of God though often times one can feel(?)/hear the difference. I'm not doing a good job explaining that -_-.

Originally posted by win 52
I have also been called an Angel, not because I played base ball, but rather because of what I do for people.

Helping others is an angel-like quality but does not qualify one as an angel.

[edit on 22-8-2007 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
Yes. And more recently had been rereading verses for reference. Unfortunately the god of the Quran is not the same God spoken of in the Bible. It takes a side-by-side comparison to see why.

the only REAL difference between them is that one is a trinitarian god, one isn't, and how the respective deities view jesus.

reply to post by Hallberg Rassy

so then the question again becomes what happens to people that have never heard of jesus or jesus teachings..?

They will then be judged on how they lived their life. Nature itself instructs us on many rights and wrongs. Your spirit may not know the finer details of God's laws but it would certainly feel murder, lies, stealing, etc. and know it was wrong.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
the only REAL difference between them is that one is a trinitarian god, one isn't, and how the respective deities view jesus.

Not that easy. Granted it's a good start, the differences are greater and more in-depth.

Originally posted by win 52
Furthermore, why did the OP want us to ignore the old testiment?

Does that put a bad light on the message? Why?

Not really. I think it's because everything changed in society as we know it that the Old Testament seems foreign to us (living by the law instead of grace). If you can chug through Leviticus or Numbers and explain how it applies to our daily life, feel free. It's a rough road to take in understanding though.

Originally posted by win 52
In my opinion, the old testiment is corrupted by the writers to put fear into people. They say the fear of God.

The New Testament says the same thing. No inconsistency here.

Originally posted by win 52
The scriptures are not consistent with their message.

How so?

Originally posted by win 52
Saturday is the day of rest, in the Universe. What day do you rest on?

Jesus addresses this, should you be willing to take Jan's challenge.

Originally posted by saint4God
Not that easy. Granted it's a good start, the differences are greater and more in-depth.

only if you go down to nitpicking and you don't acknowledge the whole of both religious books.

I came to the conclusion about Saturday, by studying and asking guidance from God. I didn't seek the knowledge of a church to teach me what to believe.

The same voice that taught me the understanding of the scriptures, is the voice I take guidence from today. If that is somehow evil, I can't see it, because it is always for good or understanding.

Oh ya, it was the same voice, as the voice of the guy who took me in his arms out to space, showed me many things, gave me instructions for the same day and for a few years to come. I do not believe that I am psycho in any way, all I did was ask for that type of relationship.

There are times when a person had better be well aware of what they ask for, they might just get it!

It was that same guidance that brought me to this thread, and asked me to post here. Try to ponder the things I have brought up, I was just writing what came in telepathically, from the voice I trust, mixed in with a few of my own expressions.

Originally posted by win 52

Originally posted by riley

My sense of dignity and self respect. I do not need a spiritual mediator or moral counsel and if I did I certainly would not be seeking it from someone as presumptious and ignorant as yourself. Work on your own stuff before you start pressuming the moral high ground above complete strangers.

Riley, there is no need for you to attack the OP in this manner. I might suggest the op is working on stuff.

What manner is that? I didn't attack him.. I merely defended myself. He's already accused me of having a heart filled with hate just for not believing. I needed to express a natural emotional response.. you can give him your simpathy if you like but it was his decision to systematically attack every atheist here. He provoked a group of people yet now has the gall to cry 'persecuted christian' when they react.. IMO that was his intention all along.. an obvious ploy. He knew the reaction he'd get.. he even said as much in his OP so I'm not sure how he can be viewed as a victim when he created the situation. To me it's just passive aggression and if I pretend to be suckered into it like you suggest.. I would be enabling a trouble maker.

Yet instead of respecting and allowing me the sentiments I have every right to.. you've chosen to chastise [assuming superiority] and to try minumalise my opinions by turning me into the aggressor. Thats not welcome either and frankly makes you look like you're covertly doing his dirty work. While you're letting him 'work on his own stuff'.. you might try let him fight his own battles.

For the factual answers, you need to request the information from the source. It is available to anyone who askes.

And even though you've assumed the peacemaker role.. you've plugged the bible yet again just in case the unsaved atheists & non believers didn't get the message in the OP [because clearly it's our failure to read it on demand thats the problem with this thread ].. co-incidently allowing the OP to avoid answering all points of contention for himself. I had some very valid arguments which have not been answered and probably won't now that you've diverted the subject.

Not that you agree with him of course..

[edit on 22-8-2007 by riley]

"They will then be judged on how they lived their life. Nature itself instructs us on many rights and wrongs. Your spirit may not know the finer details of God's laws but it would certainly feel murder, lies, stealing, etc. and know it was wrong"


If we are judged how you live your life, then why the need to believe in Jesus?
there cannot be multiple standards for humanity...this is where the Bible fails completely ; believe in jesus or you burn in hell, except for the children of Israel, and those that have never heard of jesus, who are judged according to their hearts...

where is the standard.... if people can be judged according to their hearts then why the need for jesus? and if jesus is the only way to heaven then all of humanity before his arrival on earth is damned? and if jesus Inst the only way to heaven, then why the need for him in the first place.

makes no sense.

reply to post by Hallberg Rassy

If we are judged how you live your life, then why the need to believe in Jesus? ....there cannot be multiple standards for humanity...this is where the Bible fails completely

There are no multiple standards. Your original question was about those that have not heard of Jesus. Romans 2:14 tells us that they are judged on what is in their hearts, how they lived their lives. How can that not be fair?

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things
contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto
themselves."

believe in jesus or you burn in hell, except for the children of Israel, and those that have never heard of jesus, who are judged according to their hearts...

God is doing everything He can to save everyone He can. He wants all of His children with Him. The rest is up to each of us and there are "If's" attached to all of His promises. They aren't difficult but they are there.

No one is condemned to hell - no one except Satan and his fallen angels. At the end of this age, when Christ returns, we go into the millennium. The fallen angels are killed upon His return but Satan is not. He is thrown into a pit for the duration of the millennium. During that time everyone will be taught without any influence from Satan. At the end of that time Satan is released for a short period to test those that failed the test we are presently undergoing. Then, and only then, are souls condemned to hell.

Rev.20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be
loosed out of his prison,
8.And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters
of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the
number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
10.And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and
brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be
tormented day and night for ever and ever.
15.And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into
the lake of fire.

if jesus is the only way to heaven then all of humanity before his arrival on earth is damned? and if jesus Inst the only way to heaven, then why the need for him in the first place......makes no sense.

You must believe in Jesus to have eternal life. As you see from the above verses God gives us many opportunities to do that. Some will have passed the test at the end of this age. They are called His elect and they take part in the "first resurrection". They are the ones that will teach the others through the millennium:

Rev.20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection:
on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of
God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

The "second death" is the death of our souls.

The others, that lived and died before the advent of Jesus, were given the opportunity to learn of and accept Him.

1Peter 3:19 by which also He went and preached unto the spirits in
prison,
20.Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of
God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein
few, that is, eight souls were saved by water

After His crucifixion Christ went back to those souls that died before His advent (those in prison) and offered His salvation. The reason we "need Him in the first place" is that God is showing us how much He loves us by sending His Son to die for our sins. We in return must acknowledge that we love Him, we believe that He did die for us, and we repent of the sins we have committed.

read it more than once even in two different languages (Dutch and English), which the translations are somewhat twitched. This made me wonder if the original version was translated in the correct way.... Anyhow, general idea is fine...

The messages are fine and benevolent the re-writers try to tell the readers, but I feel these books are merely some cryptic accounts for actual events in a certain place in the past, like a history book blossomed up by the many writers over the centuries.
For example, (I didn't read pass half of the 1st page of this thread) someone mentioned Noah, for me reading about it, is like giving me an imagination that in a very distant past of the Earth at most likely only a certain place there was such huge flood caused by an unprecedented natural event, that there were almost no survivors in that area.

Now, I do have a challenge to the creator and supporter of this thread, did any of you also read the Koran? Or other works of other major religions? Like Buddhism and Hinduism? After all, in my holy opinion, you should keep you mind open for other beliefs, and if you never read it before, I don't think someone should ever claim that his religion is THE religion.

Originally posted by riley
What manner is that? I didn't attack him.. I merely defended myself. He's already accused me of having a heart filled with hate just for not believing. I needed to express a natural emotional response..

My apologies to you. I will take the responsibility for not reading the thread, because of all the bitterness expressed, aparently by both sides. Once again the Gladiator Arena is set

For the factual answers, you need to request the information from the source. It is available to anyone who askes.

And even though you've assumed the peacemaker role.. you've plugged the bible yet again

You should read more thoroughly. I never plugged the bible, because I feel the work is corrupted.

I said you need to go to the source, which is what I did. That very same source took me to outer space, and showed me a lot of things about my life and the changes which we are about to see here on Earth.

Not to worry, they are good things. The bickering, fighting, killing, etc, will become a thing of the past.

reply to post by riley


I feel the need to step in here. I see my errors quoted over and over, but I never see my corrections quoted. Because of recent health issues, I have asked Saint4God to assume my responsibilties for this thread temporarily, but I am monitoring on the sidelines. I see that you and some others have missed the many times throughout this thread where I have posted, that my opening post in this thread, was an error. I may have been becoming ill before I realized it. But the post should have read as follows: "IF YOU HAVE ANY HATE IN YOUR HEARTS, PLEASE TRY TO REMOVE DURING THIS EXPERIMENT." The emphasis BEING on IF you have any hate in your heart. Do you think that Christians don't experience those feelings at times. None of us are a completed piece of work, yet. Please forgive me, all who I have offended.
I must have been bordering on insanity to have opened this thread to begin with, and am much the wiser for it now. But the damage is done and the mods have recently explained that they will not remove it, and their reasons why. I meant it to be a good thing and it came out all wrong.


[edit on 08/23/2007 by janasstar]

[edit on 08/23/2007 by janasstar]

[edit on 08/23/2007 by janasstar]

[edit on 08/11/2007 by janasstar]

[edit on 08/11/2007 by janasstar]

There are no multiple standards. Your original question was about those that have not heard of Jesus. Romans 2:14 tells us that they are judged on what is in their hearts, how they lived their lives. How can that not be fair?

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things
contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto
themselves."


I thank you for your time and response, but this quote does not reference salvation. However, if any segment of the people are judged by what is in their hearts, then why are not all people judged for what is in their hearts?
There is a double standard here, if people can live in peace and goodwill that have never heard of jesus go to heaven, then why cannot all people who live in peace and goodwill go to heaven, regardless if they believe in jesus..?
Why are there seperate avenues...and what of Gods chosen, the Jewish people.? do they go to heaven...or is this another standard for another group of people..?


What if i am a jewish person, one of gods choses people, who have never heard of jesus....or i work in a soup kitchen during the day, and comfort aids patients at night but have not been "born again".....am i not allowed to enter heaven as the mass murderer who is born again on their deathbed will be..?


I truly believe the message of Jesus was corrupted by men in power; emperor constantine and religious authorities at the time of councils and agreement ( circa 300-900 AD) what Christianity will be, for Christ had nothing to do with it.
18 Years of Jesus life completely erased from history...why..? what terrified these people so greatly they must substitute the teachings of paul for the teachings of Christ..? The Bible is not a destination nor final word on God, it is a doorway to know the God of all, not a selected few. Having a relationship with a Book is not what Jesus wanted.


Today, we have a Christian marketing campaign and its sickening to me. The mesage Jesus Christ brought has been refined through the ages until we have a slick campaign, nothing to do with true message delivered by Gods emmisary to Humanity;

Love your neighbor, clothe the naked, comfort the infirmed, visit the incarcerated, house the homeless. This was the true message jesus brought. Do these things , touch the face of god.
This is what Jesus talked about, the kingdom of god rests within you, not in a church, not on a televangelists network, and certainly not in a corrupted book created by political compromise.

Originally posted by janasstar
I may have been becoming ill before I realized it. But the post should have read as follows: "IF YOU HAVE ANY HATE IN YOUR HEARTS, PLEASE TRY TO REMOVE DURING THIS EXPERIMENT."
... Please forgive me, all who I have offended.

But the damage is done and the mods have recently explained that they will not remove it, and their reasons why. I meant it to be a good thing and it came out all wrong.

I'm glad you see how the prior phrasing could have been a bit presumptuous and have corrected it. Everyone makes mistakes so it's not something unforgivable.

I now see what you may have intended to express in the beginning and that your intentions were not to condemn. It's understandable.

As far as the thread goes...what's wrong with it? I personally feel that people should dialog over religion and spirituality. Regardless of whether or not we disagree (civil of course) it does open up other insights into a believer's perspective and possibly offers a path for those who find truth in any one religion.

I like the thread, it's not malicious so far so don;t be so hard on yourself.

reply to post by Hallberg Rassy

then why cannot all people who live in peace and goodwill go to heaven, regardless if they believe in jesus..?

Everyone goes to the same place at the end of this age and there they are judged as to what side of the gulf they will spend the millennium in (Luke 16:26). No one is tortured but they are taught and will be tested at the end of that millennium. (Rev.20)

Why are there seperate avenues...and what of Gods chosen, the Jewish people.? do they go to heaven...or is this another standard for another group of people..?

There are 12 tribes and the Jews are only 1 of those tribes. The others are scattered throughout the world and I believe are the Christian nations of today. They are all God's chosen but His love and salvation is open to everyone - the "If" connected to that is that they believe in Him. That is the only standard required.

Am i not allowed to enter heaven as the mass murderer who is born again on their deathbed will be..?

You must give God more credit than you are. He knows the heart and mind of all. He knows if they have truly asked for repentance. When this age is coming to it's end everyone will see Christ return and every knee will bow. If He has not been accepted by them at His return they will go to the "other" side of the gulf to be taught.

I truly believe the message of Jesus was corrupted by men in power; emperor constantine and religious authorities at the time of councils and agreement ( circa 300-900 AD) what Christianity will be, for Christ had nothing to do with it.

Then stay away from "religion". Christianity is NOT religion. It is a way of life.

18 Years of Jesus life completely erased from history...why..? what terrified these people so greatly they must substitute the teachings of paul for the teachings of Christ..? The Bible is not a destination nor final word on God, it is a doorway to know the God of all, not a selected few. Having a relationship with a Book is not what Jesus wanted.

I don't agree. Paul teaches us so much. If you wish to know Jesus you must study His Word as He comes to us in the volume of the Book. He is the Word. Find a good Bible based teacher or church and ask God for guidance. I haven't found a church but I have a wonderful teacher.

Love your neighbor, clothe the naked, comfort the infirmed, visit the incarcerated, house the homeless. This was the true message jesus brought. Do these things , touch the face of god.
This is what Jesus talked about, the kingdom of god rests within you, not in a church, not on a televangelists network, and certainly not in a corrupted book created by political compromise.

I agree with everything you are saying except in calling the Bible corrupted. How men interpret it or have mistranslated the original text is the corruption, not God's words.

reply to post by Hallberg Rassy



This is a PS to my earlier post. When you asked about the "mass murder" receiving salvation. They cannot be forgiven of murder or rape while in the flesh body. Others can be forgiven of their sins but not a murderer or rapist. They must face God and He decides there.....Who knows, perhaps he will have the soul of the murdered or molested one with Him to face the guilty party.

reply to post by whirlwind



I'd say it's actually the other way around: christian morality (along with all other organised religions) are simply 'official' doctrines that simply ape basic human instincts. Which in itself, helps to prove the non-existence of god...

J.

Originally posted by whirlwind
reply to post by Hallberg Rassy

 

This is a PS to my earlier post. When you asked about the "mass murder" receiving salvation. They cannot be forgiven of murder or rape while in the flesh body. Others can be forgiven of their sins but not a murderer or rapist. They must face God and He decides there.....Who knows, perhaps he will have the soul of the murdered or molested one with Him to face the guilty party.

Hello, was watching from the sidelines. saw some really great answers here. but I have to question this one in particular. Didn't the Word indicate that if we TRULY repent of a sin, (No matter what it is) that we would be forgiven, and it would be cast as far from Him as the east is from the west and cast into the sea of forgetfulness and NEVER remembered against us again?? Personally I never saw any exceptions there. Society seems to want to put them there.

If I read this book correctly, a lot of things will be determined on judgement Day. The Word did say that God wasn't willing that any should perish, but that all should have everlasting life.........

reply to post by whirlwind


QUOTE: 'You must believe in Jesus to have eternal life. As you see from the above verses God gives us many opportunities to do that. Some will have passed the test at the end of this age. They are called His elect and they take part in the "first resurrection". They are the ones that will teach the others through the millennium:'

Sorry - but this is a load of religious rhetoric. Pure biased nonsense.

J.

[edit on 24-8-2007 by jimbo999]