War With Iran Has Begun 5/21/07

I haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if this has been mentioned before, but:

A former Iranian ambassador and Islamic Republic insider has provided intriguing details to Asia Times Online about US covert operations inside Iran aimed at destabilizing the country and toppling the regime - or preparing for an American attack. "The Iranian government knows and is aware of such infiltration. It means that the Iranian government has identified them [the covert operatives] but for some reason does not want to show [this]," said the former diplomat on condition of anonymity.

Source

Dated: April 25, 2006

How exactly is this news?

Originally posted by jsobecky
You saying it is so doesn't make it so.

I need to know every detail of your life, grimreaper797. All your financial and medical records, please. The most intimate details on your sexual relationships with whomever.

I need to know that info. I pay taxes, therefore I am entitled to that information.

What the hell? How does taxes come back to me? Taxes are paid to the government, thus I want to know what the government is doing with them. Are you paying taxes to me? No, therefore, you are entitled to nothing from/about me.

See how ridiculous that sounds?

yea, but only because your attempt at logic was so ridiculous and horrid I almost didn't bother to respond. Your analogy was possibly one of the worst and most inaccurate analogies I have ever come across. You COMPLETELY missed the mark.

Just because you pay taxes does not make you privy to military or intelligence information.

sure it does because it is OUR money they are spending, and OUR citizens lives they are risking. We don't need to know "we are going to have a raid in bagdad on may 29th at 7:00AM" but we do need to know "we are going to launch pyschological warfare against *this country*"

It is simply way too dangerous to have it otherwise. In fact, its the reason the middle east is so screwed up, because we let the CIA have fun in the middle east overthrowing governments and selling weapons. Now we have the situation we have today, because they did as they wanted, with no one to keep them in check because "national security" came before national agreement.

Well then, your recourse is the ballot box.

And when this nation has fallen apart and our forefathers are turning in their graves, the ballot box will mean nothing.

It is the mentality of people like you that makes me give up on america, and consider leaving.

Well, you'll get your honor soon enough:

One of the missing 3 soldiers was found today in Iraq, floating in a river. His face was so badly mutilated that identification was very difficult. It is obvious that he was tortured ( and I don't mean, subjected to a barking dog torture, I mean grown-up torture ) before he was executed with two bullets; one in the chest and one in the head.

But you'll get your "honor". When we capture the ones who did this, we'll make sure that we read them their rights. We'll make sure they have their prayer rugs, and culturally adjusted meals. They'll be treated with kid gloves.

And guys like you will be defending their rights all along.

You're damn right we will be defending their rights. I'll be doing it and with pride too. I hate those bastards that did it, but you know what, as some one of PRINCIPLE and real morality, I believe in maintaining composure. See there are a good amount of people out there that like to talk the talk, "Fair trial, all men created equal, I believe in freedom and liberty" but then they are faced with the real scum of this earth, and they can't hold their principles. They are WEAK. They do nothing but TALK of what they "believe". What do I believe? That if some countries military attacked us and congress voted to go to war with that country, that I would be ready to fight right out on the front lines. I don't care if you believe me or not, because I am a person of principle and pride.

I don't switch my position when the real world comes into play. When the scum of this planet kill, we give them their fair trial, not because we believe they deserve it, but because we believe that "rights" aren't a words we throw around when it best fits our personal beliefs. Defending rights isn't speaking out when your freedom of speech is being censored, but speaking out when your enemies freedom of speech is being censored. Defending rights isn't about ensuring your family member get a fair trial, but making sure the man who killed a family member get a fair trial.

You want to call yourself a patriot or a real american because you believe in doing the right thing when it best fits you, fine. But the fact of the matter is this, defending a persons rights makes you a patriot, it makes you a real american, and I can't say you fit that description.

If they are too weak to stand up to propaganda, then they deserve to fall. There is nothing illegal or immoral about propaganda, except in your mind. You need to toughen yourself up a bit there, grimreaper.

And if we are too weak to resist the temptation of trading our principles to win the war, then we deserve to fall. There is nothing illegal about propaganda, because if we are weak enough to need a law to stop us from using such shallow tactics, then there is nothing left to defend.

As for toughing up, you should look in the mirror. Being tough isn't using the shallow tactics, but resisting the temptation to use those tactics.

The US has been running Black ops in iran since the CIA was started as well as many other countries.not new news The US is top dog and top dog will always spread his # around.Destablizing weaker governments is sport.

Since we are all up inside Irans petootie, all it will take is one mistake , one little trip-up to give this administration what its been looking for. I hope more articles like this come out so people can make their own decisions for war and not be mislead as we have been by this current administration, their cronies as well as their allies , all of whom who are the ones benefitting from all these actions. The dead get nothing from this.

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
Since we are all up inside Irans petootie,

Sorry but I could not stop laughing at this part of your post,

The dead get nothing from this.

Amen to that, as usual nobody think about the death while blindly supporting the corrupted government we have and its pursue of power, that is neither to benefit any of us at all.







[edit on 23-5-2007 by marg6043]

Originally posted by grimreaper797


sure it does because it is OUR money they are spending, and OUR citizens lives they are risking. We don't need to know "we are going to have a raid in bagdad on may 29th at 7:00AM" but we do need to know "we are going to launch pyschological warfare against *this country*"

It is simply way too dangerous to have it otherwise. In fact, its the reason the middle east is so screwed up, because we let the CIA have fun in the middle east overthrowing governments and selling weapons. Now we have the situation we have today, because they did as they wanted, with no one to keep them in check because "national security" came before national agreement.

And when this nation has fallen apart and our forefathers are turning in their graves, the ballot box will mean nothing.

It is the mentality of people like you that makes me give up on america, and consider leaving.

You're damn right we will be defending their rights. I'll be doing it and with pride too. I hate those bastards that did it, but you know what, as some one of PRINCIPLE and real morality, I believe in maintaining composure. See there are a good amount of people out there that like to talk the talk, "Fair trial, all men created equal, I believe in freedom and liberty" but then they are faced with the real scum of this earth, and they can't hold their principles. They are WEAK. They do nothing but TALK of what they "believe". What do I believe? That if some countries military attacked us and congress voted to go to war with that country, that I would be ready to fight right out on the front lines. I don't care if you believe me or not, because I am a person of principle and pride.

I don't switch my position when the real world comes into play. When the scum of this planet kill, we give them their fair trial, not because we believe they deserve it, but because we believe that "rights" aren't a words we throw around when it best fits our personal beliefs. Defending rights isn't speaking out when your freedom of speech is being censored, but speaking out when your enemies freedom of speech is being censored. Defending rights isn't about ensuring your family member get a fair trial, but making sure the man
....

Sorry, I shortened up the quote a bit because all together it was rather long.

Mainly, I wanted to say that, grimreaper797, the posts you have made in this thread align just with what I was thinking as I read this thread.

I never really paid attention to covert operations against other nations until a class I took recently about Latin American history. To me, to destablize the government of another nation is troublesome, as how would the United States respond to another country attempting such tactics with us?

Personally, I would be very irritated to say the least, that another nation would think that we needed them upsetting our government. Also, the government represents this nation as a whole and when our citizens feel the repercussions of such covert actions by death and terror, we feel the blame and blow from something we knew nothing about. I am not saying that we should know everything pertaining to national security, but I would certainly like to know when our nation is acting hostile to another nation.

Also, how can we disdain other nations or organizations about human rights abuses or torture if we act in the same way? No matter how awful someone acts towards you, one must never sink to their level. Once you cross that line, you are no better.

A final note, please grimreaper797 do not give up on the United States. There are citizens that feel like you do and are concerned about the actions and works of their government. There are citizens who believe in rights, not for just themselves but for their enemies as well. Thank you for posting what you have, I certainly could not have put what you have written as eloquently and reasonably as you have.

Originally posted by grimreaper797
It is the mentality of people like you that makes me give up on america, and consider leaving.

Need money for a one-way ticket? Either way, don't let the door hit ya where the Good Lord split ya!

You benefit from my taxes, right? Therefore, you owe me. Sorry you missed that in your one-dimensional world.

And if you want to justify your love for the terrorists by calling yourself a "patriot", go ahead. You're not fooling anybody but yourself. The difference between you and me is, I'd make sure they received their rights (grudgingly), but you'd be falling all over yourself as you grovel up to them, saying "Love me! Love me! It was all my evil president's fault!"

[edit on 23-5-2007 by jsobecky]

the US government has always used misinformation in wars. they did it in WW2, and the first gulf war. why would they not do it now? its part of the stategy that they don't have.

This whole story is ridiculous.

The CIA has been doing every single one of these things for the last 27 years. By the way, the sky is blue today.

You would think people woke up a year ago and realized that Iran was an enemy.

Anybody who thinks this is news or somehow noteworthy reveals how little they understand the decade referred to as the 1980s, heck even the 90s.

The only real news here is that somebody leaked something. It may be on purpose, it may not be.

If I had to guess this was a contrived leak to generate more political heat on Iran. It certainly is not detailed enough to reveal anything of any use to them.

If it was not contrived, then it was a low-level source. The fact that the CIA has been actively working to destabilize Iran should not be a surprise to anyone over the age of 30 or who reads a newspaper.

...but as you can see some get their knickers in a knot over the plainly obvious.

Originally posted by slingshotsally

I never really paid attention to covert operations against other nations until a class I took recently about Latin American history. To me, to destablize the government of another nation is troublesome, as how would the United States respond to another country attempting such tactics with us?

Personally, I would be very irritated to say the least, that another nation would think that we needed them upsetting our government.

Guess what? Nations use propaganda against us every day of the week.

Chavez gives away discount oil to some of our citizens.

What do you think that is, altruism?

Don't fall for the naive rhetoric that says we're the only ones who use propaganda.

Very little of importance is released on the news wire by accident...very little, and the geopolitical chess-game is played-out several dimensions simultaneously.

Granted...this latest 'show of force' is designed to influence the U.S.-Iranian talks scheduled to begin on the 28th, but I believe this message-in-a-bottle was also intended to wash-up on the shores of the South China sea. Last September, as Treasury Secretary Paulson began high level economic talks in Beijing, Time Magazine, and others broke the story that the Eisenhower Strike Group had received orders to deploy to the PG by October 1st. The 'war on Iran' rhetoric began in earnest.

Well, today Secretary Paulson just happened to begin his second round of "strategic economic dialogue" with high level Chinese delegates...the hot topic?...Chinese currency reform, and related trade issues.

Given China's massive investment in the Iranian energy sector, and it's dependence on Iranian oil & gas...imagine the effect of air strikes on Iranian oil and natural gas infrastructure...pipelines. Interrupt the flow oil, and natural gas for three months = cripple china's domestic economy.

Coincidence? Conspiracy theory? Hey!, it's multidimensional chess. China may believe they have the economic leverage in these negotiations (I do), but the U.S. still holds the big stick militarily...I believe we're reminding here.

Peace &
Good Fortune
OBE1

Originally posted by jsobecky

Need money for a one-way ticket? Either way, don't let the door hit ya where the Good Lord split ya!

Thanks but no thanks, I pay my way.

You benefit from my taxes, right? Therefore, you owe me. Sorry you missed that in your one-dimensional world.

Benefit, thats is a funny choice of words. Benefit as in the social security I will never get? Or do I "benefit" from the grossly over sized military budget? Do you live in my state? No? Well then chances are alot of your taxes DON'T benefit me. In fact, most taxes don't benefit me to begin with. Not to mention I am paying my part anyway. I pay the income tax, and the gas tax, and social security tax, etc. I pay for a good deal of the taxes you do (assuming you are a property owner, I don't pay that one). Fact is though, even if they did benefit me, that doesn't make a difference.

The fact is that your giving it to the government to use as you allow them to. You ALLOW them to spend it on public things like that, so that was your choice. If you gave your money to me, you could pick my life apart. Until then, you give your money to the government, who uses it on us. There is a difference. You can pick apart who ever it is you are giving your money to, what they do with it is up to you to find out and decide upon.

And if you want to justify your love for the terrorists by calling yourself a "patriot", go ahead. You're not fooling anybody but yourself. The difference between you and me is, I'd make sure they received their rights (grudgingly), but you'd be falling all over yourself as you grovel up to them, saying "Love me! Love me! It was all my evil president's fault!"
[edit on 23-5-2007 by jsobecky]

My god, you sound like Giuliani and it's frightening. Who says terrorists and national security more, you or him? I like how you twist words like that to get an emotional response...ever think about running for office with other neocons like yourself? You do a good job at twisting words for an emotional jerk.

Now, when we come back to reality, and what I REALLY said, people can see that what I had pointed at was it takes a REAL american to want to give rights to everyone because principles are more important then your own petty emotional grudges you choose to have.

Originally posted by jsobecky
Guess what? Nations use propaganda against us every day of the week.

Chavez gives away discount oil to some of our citizens.

What do you think that is, altruism?

Don't fall for the naive rhetoric that says we're the only ones who use propaganda.

And that must make everything A-O-K then right?

It's like you want to erode our countries principles.

Originally posted by jsobecky
And if you want to justify your love for the terrorists by calling yourself a "patriot", go ahead. You're not fooling anybody but yourself. The difference between you and me is, I'd make sure they received their rights (grudgingly), but you'd be falling all over yourself as you grovel up to them, saying "Love me! Love me! It was all my evil president's fault!"

I know that you weren't talking to me, but I have to say it's sad that you resort to attacks against other members instead of replying to what grimreaper797 said.

Shows how weak your argument is though...

When will people stop watching the news. You know they do polls to find out what gets the most viewers. Politics is one of the major ones. I wouldn't be surprised if they took an old story from the 70's and just updated it with new figures. The military has done "show of force" for years. Heck I know the ship I was on must of supported a few islands for many years. As for Iran, they've been a baddie on our scope for years. This still makes me think that this has happened before and its just a rehash story.

P.S. I hate politics. Rep. Dems. the whole system doesn't work right.

-Aza

Originally posted by Cutwolf

Originally posted by hoochymama
This is the point.

CONGRESS DOESNT HAVE TO APPROVE ANYTHING!!!!!!

Bush is THE Dictator right now and can do as he pleases.

PS. The term "Fool me once" should NEVER, EVER even enter into the conversation in regards to WAR. I am educating my kids at a young age to question there Gov. at all costs.

[edit on 23-5-2007 by hoochymama]

Oh boy, Chicken Little...

Yes, congress has to approve it.

I question the government.

This is a bad government. One of the worst in American history.

It is hardly as bad as chicken littles like you make it out to be.

Continue to flaunt your lack of knowledge of the constitution and your in depth knowledge of the underground, alternative news sources. It is quite amusing.

Cutwolf I saw on the news today that Bush has the Demcrats over a barrel over the funding in Iraq. Bush will not yield,compromise, or even talk about it. He has to have it his way...period. Look how many bills he vetod already regarding the war funding.

That's supposed to be Congress's job to approve the war. But what can they do verses a hard headed President. As for impeachment- Did Pelosi say its not on the table because its a waste of time..

We have to face facts the US is 9 trillion dollars in debt. We're still in a war thats dragging the US deeper. And now he wants to go after Iran?
I'm sorry but Bush is gonna end up killing us all. But we're still here talking about it.

I suggest making some plans on gathering supplies and such. It might not happen tommorrow- but it better to be prepared then not at all.

If nothing comes of this then thats great. But as long as Bush is still in office don't take anything for granted. No matter how silly it may seem.

The CIA, NSA, etc are responsible for twisting the American government. Sniffing out reasons for war all around the globe to support the military industrial complex. The war on terror is a blanket excuse for the federal government to do whatever they want, that includes disrespecting the Constitution.

Has anyone considered that the media was right to point out that we're trying to instigate a war with Iran? The CIA is responsible for the lives of the people they have in Iran, right or wrong, not the media.

Cutwolf I saw on the news today that Bush has the Demcrats over a barrel over the funding in Iraq. Bush will not yield,compromise, or even talk about it. He has to have it his way...period. Look how many bills he vetod already regarding the war funding.

Different situation.

Congress was fighting a losing battle from the beginning because everyone knew they couldn't continue to play this tug of war over supporting our troops.

The Iran war would be a new, clean slate. If they say "No" from the beginning, game over.

As for the debate with grimreaper, I'm torn.

On one hand, I was disgusted by our treatment of Jose Padilla (not going to rehash the whole story here).

On the other hand, we are at war. We seem to forget that the goal in war is to kill as many of the enemy as possible. We seem to forget that war is violent and that civilians do die in war.

We seem to forget that in a battle, soldiers can't afford to stop and think whether the old man is reaching for his cane or an assault rifle.

If I were in charge, I demand every American citizen not involved in the military confrontation OUT of Iraq. Media blackout. When we finally turn the lights back on, we've either won or lost. That is really all the matters.

How you achieve victory in a war should not be an issue. War is war and the goal is to win.

Originally posted by AllSeeingI
In my opinion it wasn't that much of a secret if the ABC was able to get their hands on it. The US government should know better than to let "secrets" like that slip.

Here is the cleverest dude of the week *applause

Men Cia is like a synonymous of the word "secret" can we even doubt this "news" is not a joke or disinformation ... let me guess Nope



[edit on 23-5-2007 by themaster1]

Originally posted by Cutwolf

On the other hand, we are at war. We seem to forget that the goal in war is to kill as many of the enemy as possible. We seem to forget that war is violent and that civilians do die in war.

Yes that may be truth but lest no forget that we brought the war to Iraq it was not Iraq the one that made war to us.

That alone is enough to understant that our troops are fighting a forced war by this administration and that the lost of lives is nothing but the result of the pushing of this war.

This war in Iraq is shameful.

When we finally turn the lights back on, we've either won or lost. That is really all the matters.

In a war pushed for not reasons but those of personal private agendas is not winners and the losers are the death.

How you achieve victory in a war should not be an issue. War is war and the goal is to win.

What is the goal and what do you define as to win and for whom is the wining, only for the profeteers of war, they are sure to be the ones reaping the benefits after the blood of inocents is spilled.