War With Iran Has Begun 5/21/07

Originally posted by grimreaper797

Originally posted by jsobecky
Sorry, that's not "need to know". That's "nice to know", or more accurately, "want to know".

sorry but it is a need to know who it is the united states government is engaging in military or pyschological warfare with. This is OUR taxes, OUR elected officials and OUR right to know what these people are doing with OUR taxes. If you are spending millions, possibly billions, of tax dollars to fight a country, I want to know what country it is and why.

You saying it is so doesn't make it so.

I need to know every detail of your life, grimreaper797. All your financial and medical records, please. The most intimate details on your sexual relationships with whomever.

I need to know that info. I pay taxes, therefore I am entitled to that information.

See how ridiculous that sounds?

Just because you pay taxes does not make you privy to military or intelligence information.

I don't agree with the trillions of unaccounted for dollars in taxes. That is NOT what I am giving my taxes for. If I pay my taxes, I have a RIGHT to know what they are being used for. In this case, propaganda against a FOREIGN GOVERNMENT to destablize it. I DO NOT agree with this, and I am AGAINST my tax money being spent on it. I have that right. How can I protest against government actions, when they make sure I am not allowed to know what they are doing?

Well then, your recourse is the ballot box.



< Part of the rant removed >

It's like watching gangs. They aren't honorable, they don't have principle. They don't say "We are going to fight you guys", no, they get 5 or 6 people and jump some one from behind. They are cowards. Is that how you want to fight? Like cowards? Who's fighting like cowards, the terrorists stating "We declare war on you, we will fight you" or the country who secretly spends millions upon millions to overthrow governments and spread lies to further their own ends? Sure it may be more effective, but I thought I came from a country based on principles rather than "whatever means necessary".

Sorry for the rant, but it was well deserved.

Well, you'll get your honor soon enough:

One of the missing 3 soldiers was found today in Iraq, floating in a river. His face was so badly mutilated that identification was very difficult. It is obvious that he was tortured ( and I don't mean, subjected to a barking dog torture, I mean grown-up torture ) before he was executed with two bullets; one in the chest and one in the head.

But you'll get your "honor". When we capture the ones who did this, we'll make sure that we read them their rights. We'll make sure they have their prayer rugs, and culturally adjusted meals. They'll be treated with kid gloves.

And guys like you will be defending their rights all along.

Again, ignorance rears it's ugly head on ATS... please get the facts straight:

The plan is to use propaganda and disinfo to destabilize the Iranian regime.

Iran uses propaganda and disinfo every day of the week. So does practically every other nation on earth.

Nobody is "going into Iran".

I guess the "they did it too" mentality is OK so long as its on an international scale. If some one in school threw a book at some one, does that make it OK for everyone else to do it because the first kid did it. Would you be OK with america CIA agents running planes into a building in Iran with the justification "the muslims did it to us!"?

So what, they use propaganda, that means that we are going to do it too? That makes me utterly sick. I may "show ignorance" from time to time, but at least I can look myself in the mirror and say "I chose to fight with honor", can you say that much?

If they are too weak to stand up to propaganda, then they deserve to fall. There is nothing illegal or immoral about propaganda, except in your mind. You need to toughen yourself up a bit there, grimreaper.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

pretty much the entire wolrd considers your evil empire to be now.

You wish. And even if it did .. we wouldn't care.

FF, you are entitled to your own opinion but, please, don't feel you have the right to speak for every other American. To say that the majority of Americans could care less about what the world thinks of them/us and our country, is ignorant at best, and disingenuous at worst. That's My opinion.

LOL those commentors are funny.

U.S. Navy launches show of military force off Iranian coast

By The Associated Press

DUBAI - Ships packed with 17,000 sailors and Marines moved into the Persian Gulf on Wednesday as the U.S. Navy staged another show of military force off Iran's coast just days before direct U.S.-Iran talks in Baghdad.

The carrier strike groups led by the USS John C. Stennis and USS Nimitz were joined by the amphibious assault ship USS Bonhomme Richard and its own strike group, which includes two landing ships carrying 2,100 members of the 13th Marine Expeditionary Unit.

Aircraft aboard the two carriers and the Bonhomme Richard were to conduct air training while the ships ran submarine, mine and other exercises. The Navy has maintained its two-carrier presence since February when the Stennis arrived in the Mideast waters.

Both carriers, with about 80 warplanes apiece, are expected to remain in the region through the summer as part of the Bush administration's stepped-up military presence off Iranian shores.

Source

A DUHHH they aren't traitorous...its just that we are not the first to find out. Foreign governments know before Americans do.

The choice for war is clearly not a choice to be made by Americans
Wonder if this may have anything to do with it?

Poll: 71% of Israelis want U.S. to strike Iran if talks fail

By Aluf Benn, Haaretz Correspondent


Fully 71 percent of Israelis believe that the United States should launch a military attack on Iran if diplomatic efforts fail to halt Tehran's nuclear program, according to a new poll.

The survey, commissioned by Bar-Ilan University's BESA Center and the Anti-Defamation League, found that 59 percent of Israelis still believe the war in Iraq was justified, while 36 percent take the opposite view.

Source

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
LOL those commentors are funny.
The choice for war is clearly not a choice to be made by Americans
Wonder if this may have anything to do with it?

You are so right is not even funny, we Americans are nothing more that numbers to this government imperialistic that we have.

The elite wag their wars and we the people are the ones spilling our blood for their benefit.

I have heard the argument that this information should have not been released because it would jeopardize national security and endanger our troops.

First off: The idea of National Security can and is being manipulated by the powerful. Who are they, or anyone for that matter, to judge what should be kept secret and what should be released? I think we will find that 99% of the time secrets are kept for political reasons and not for keeping the troops safe.

Second Point: If we are worried about keeping the nation and troops safe then we shouldn’t be going to war in the first place. Our leaders put our troops in harm’s way, not the media!

If preemptive action is required to keep a rogue nation from obtaining nukes or whatever, then we should use our surgical air strikes and long-range bombers. Troops and boots-on-the-ground is an archaic and outmoded method of warfare. Like using a capgun in a nuke fight.

Final Point: Call me naive, but I believe that secrecy of any kind is a root of evil. If nations had no secrets, and all things were done in the open, there would be much less corruption and warmongering. Secrets are used to keep and hold power. Without their secrets, they are nothing.

do you really think that they would allow any information about military or covert CIA ops to go live on the Internet.

lol

Originally posted by AllSeeingI
Secrets are used to keep and hold power. Without their secrets, they are nothing.

Have to agree with your post. The quoted line above really hits home. Every time I hear of closed door meetings, especially the gov and big business, I feel something "no good" is coming.

The US has been meddling with Iran for decades and Iran knows it. I don't think that news article will make a difference or inform anyone of this for the first time.

Originally posted by jsobecky

Originally posted by PsykoOps

Originally posted by jsobecky
I wasn't referring to Iran specifically. I was referring to the issue of national security in general.

And Iran certainly does have the capability to strike us, from within. Just as al Qaeda struck us from within.

So any country in the world is fair game now? I mean isn't it true that any country could strike US from within in a terrorist fashion? Where do you draw the line then?

I'm not sure what you mean, "fair game"? The topic was national security, and how it might be jeopardized by leaking sensitive information.

It just sounded as if you're using Iran's capabilities as a reason to label them hostile. It's not the capability of the country that makes the difference, it's their political and social scene and wheter it's hostile to another nation. Any country has capability to do terrorist kind of attacks on another. I'm kinda 'screwing the dot' here but wanted to point that out

Originally posted by AllSeeingI
I have heard the argument that this information should have not been released because it would jeopardize national security and endanger our troops.

There is only one entity currently putting our men, women, children, mothers, fathers, grandparents at risk here and its definitely not ABC news blog. Its the people fighting against the majority to start a war where none is needed once again using deceit and subtrefuge as well as putting all efforts against bringing our troops back home from Iraq.

When the Dems finally take office next election they will of course lay blame on the then current administration when the treasury has been fully pillaged and all their benefits have been cut. If we can still afford to maintain a government that is.

Originally posted by PsykoOps

It's not the capability of the country that makes the difference, it's their political and social scene and wheter it's hostile to another nation. Any country has capability to do terrorist kind of attacks on another.

This is a very good point if I may add, just like our country that is ruled by a government that supposedly is doing what the people want and as we can see that is not truth. . . so other countries governments do what they want to do no matter if the people opposes the government or agree with their government.

But when one nation attacks another usually the people is the one that suffers the most, the innocent and guilty alike.

When it comes to terrorism it has many faces and sometimes the most friendly are the deadliest.

Originally posted by AllSeeingI
I have heard the argument that this information should have not been released because it would jeopardize national security and endanger our troops.

First off: The idea of National Security can and is being manipulated by the powerful. Who are they, or anyone for that matter, to judge what should be kept secret and what should be released? I think we will find that 99% of the time secrets are kept for political reasons and not for keeping the troops safe.

Well, somebody has to make the decision, right? And who better than those whose job it is to protect us?

And I know that you were just trying to make a point when you said "99% of the time secrets are kept for political reasons and not for keeping the troops safe". But the real number is actually somewhere around 3% of the time secrets are kept for political reasons.

Where did I get that number? Same place you got yours.

Second Point: If we are worried about keeping the nation and troops safe then we shouldn’t be going to war in the first place. Our leaders put our troops in harm’s way, not the media!

Let's take that thought one step further: let's eliminate the military. That way we'll be sure to keep our nation and troops safe, right?

If preemptive action is required to keep a rogue nation from obtaining nukes or whatever, then we should use our surgical air strikes and long-range bombers. Troops and boots-on-the-ground is an archaic and outmoded method of warfare. Like using a capgun in a nuke fight.

Who is talking about boots on the ground, other than a few misinformed people here? Nobody is proposing an invasion of Iran, where did you get that notion?

Final Point: Call me naive, but I believe that secrecy of any kind is a root of evil. If nations had no secrets, and all things were done in the open, there would be much less corruption and warmongering. Secrets are used to keep and hold power. Without their secrets, they are nothing.

It's a fact of life; you'll just have to accept it. There are many unpleasantries that we need to deal with. Secrecy is necessary in some cases, that's a fact.

Nine US Warships Assemble Off Iranian Coast MSNBC
The assembly off Iran’s coast is largest since the 2003 Iraq war

Black-ops is now publicized in the media before the event?...LOL, yeah sure. More like hot war ops, so any bets this actually means they are sending in recon before the bombing begins?

Oil has been rising nicely in the last week too.

Originally posted by Regenmacher


Oil has been rising nicely in the last week too.

Nothing new, somebody has to make a buck and profits, you don't need secrecy to know that when an amount of ships moves to an area that is already been related to war or pre empty attacks is obvious that our government wants to finish his corporate agenda.

None of this is a secret, we americans are not stupid.

Occurs is much money to be make while at it, like oil . . .

First off the thread title is a little misleading...

The guy from ABC who wrote about this is a complete idiot if this article is actually true. One could argue that Iran probably would know we would try something like this, but by him posting this it actually gives validity that we are infact doing this. By allowing Iran confirmation they will not only try to find these guys, but it heightens the tention between U.S. and Iran.

No one wants a war, no one wants to fight and kill others. However, some do feel the need to defend their country according to their beliefs and values. We don't have enough people in the U.S. who think that Iran posses a large enough threat to go to war with them. If we were to go to war with Iran, the U.S. would probably put forth a draft, and that would create a bigger unrest amongst Americans against this administration. So the U.S. will not be a major player in a war with Iran, just a few troops and supplies. Who will fill the major role in a war with Iran? Isreal could, but it dosn't have very many troops to accomplish a occupation of Iran. So who else dislikes Iran enough for another "coalition of the willing"?

We also face another dilemma, if we attacked Iran, Syria would be dragged into it due to their defense treaty. What would Russia do? Russia has alot of money in Iran, and they would not want to see it to go to waste. Would they sit back like in Iraq, or would they actually do something? With, what appears to be, a new, or the same, cold war heightening could and would Russia actually be a threat to anyone who attacks Iran?

There are to many negatives for the U.S. to actually go to war with Iran. The U.S. goverment is very good at doing things around the world that change history forever, known or unknown, positive or negative. My bet is that we have had guys in Iran for a very long time now and many other countries around the world. This article only will create more tention between the U.S. and Iran. It will probably lead to nothing much like the kidnapping or detaining, which ever you prefure, of the British soldiers.

-Reform America

this is starting to get scary.. i feel a bit nervous about the current state the earth is in right now

nothing good can come out of this

if anyone thinks something good can come out of it please inform me cause all i see is more people dieing for greed

Originally posted by Dissension
I really wish we would just stay out of it. We should just give Israel the OK and let them nuke Iran and turn that place into a glass parking lot. Geeze. We need to work smart, not hard.

Or we could just give Iran the Okay to nuke Israel - that way we'd be in the good graces of the oil rich nations and greatly improve our chances of not becoming embroiled in another mid-east conflict.
Our support of Israel is ridiculous - it makes no sense what-so-ever. They take our 3.5 million in military and economic aid and what do we get back? free trade agreements for Teva sandals

Please.

Oh, and you spelled Indigo wrong in your signature.

Originally posted by DaRAGE
welll secret out. mums the word.

time for the patriot act to come into play. draft time it is. bring out the nukes. economic collapse while fighting the war. yeah fun

The next piece of info leaked tells of G.W's plans to start carpet bombing Australia. I heard they're using "dumb" bombs so you better hide

Originally posted by AllSeeingI
Secrets are used to keep and hold power.

That is one of the more important truths to be mentioned in this thread. Secrets are also used as currency (which, in a lot of ways, is just a restatement of the word "power").

I do find it incredibly peculiar that ABC was able to obtain this information if the op was truly intended to be successful and covert, but I suppose it takes only one doubter to unravel it. If it is disinformation, then it is rather strange disinformation. I have not yet imagined a really plausible scenario whereby we would benefit from leaking that information to the press, save the most obvious one, which is that our leaders really do have a vested interest in destroying our image on a global scale, scattering our troops abroad, weakening defense of the actual homeland, and generally inspiring new levels of hatred for our country. Since I'm not sure that our image could actually slip any lower in the global eye, I'm not convinced that this is the intent.

A lot of people seem to have immediately reacted because of the "troop factor." When military/government agent lives are mentioned, the whole issue can get crazy in a flash. The majority of those who've never been in the military (or something like the CIA) or have no family in either will undervalue this aspect and the opposite faction will overvalue it (probably in a way that is inversely proportional ). A more dangerous assumption being made is that the mission will continue despite the mention in the press. Only in that case would lives be at risk. Remember that the article referred to this as a plan, not a current, on-going operation (I personally believe there are numerous on-going operations, but someone still needed to make the point). If this is so, then the situation has not yet developed to the point where this argument is entirely applicable to this particular news story (though it is applicable to the more broad concept of the media reporting on covert maneuvers in general). My opinion is that we've been engaged in operations against Iran for decades and this doesn't surprise me in the least. But it's nevertheless possible that the sole purpose of leaking this information to ABC was to kill the operation before it ever had a chance to get off the ground.

Is anyone really surprised that we're considering/engaged in operations in Iran? Some previous posters haven't become so forgetful as to think that this is really news or that anything is really at risk. Do you think Iran is surprised to learn this? Remember the 1980s? 1970s? Do you think Iran has not already been shoring up its defenses? Do you think that Iran doesn't already believe that everything we say is propaganda?

My personal opinion is that the only real value in this story is in how much it serves to further draw the dividing lines between the American people.

/tn.


[Edited in several places for clarity]


[edit on 23-5-2007 by teleonaut]

Originally posted by marg6043

Originally posted by Regenmacher


Oil has been rising nicely in the last week too.

Nothing new, somebody has to make a buck and profits, you don't need secrecy to know that when an amount of ships moves to an area that is already been related to war or pre empty attacks is obvious that our government wants to finish his corporate agenda.

None of this is a secret, we americans are not stupid.

Occurs is much money to be make while at it, like oil . . .

I regret to inform you that most Americans are stupid. Go to your local shopping mall area and look around. It makes me sick to watch all the busy little bees rushing about to spend money at store a, b, and c. I own a PC repair shop in my town and I have loyal customers and a very high retention rate among my business clients. However, recently a Best Buy came to town and one of the Best Buy for Business or Geek Squad managers came by trying to recruit one of my employees by offering more money. As most of you may know clients are dedicated to there tech and the Best Buy guy actually asked him if he had a contact list.(My techs have all signed non-compete agreements now.) My guy did not leave as he was apalled by there BS tactic and one of my competitors told me he stopped by his store too. But to the few people that know about this it won't matter and probably won't care because at the end of the day they will go to Best Buy's super duper mega mega sale day to save a buck. My point is corporations spend so much money to make customers feel like they are being done a favour by the corporations. They spend mega bucks locally on PR with there "stupid corp cares campaign". Customer service is an oxy-moron now days. Product quality sucks, people are oversold on everything and feel great about it. These people complain about the gas prices and then go to Target and buy a $5 coffee from the Starbucks inside the Target store. If anyone follows me here people's lives are so controlled and brainwashed by these corps that they don't realize that these corps are controlling them and the country. So they B-word, B-word, B-word about the state of affairs and they say o well lets order Dominos tonight, watch the BS reality show telling them how they should live, watch the commercials during the show, and then go buy what they saw. Until there is a fundamental change in the ethical and moral values here in America nothing will change. Our votes won't matter because whoever is elected will bow to the corporations, we will take it in the backside, and our NWO gov't will go from country to country looking for new places to setup shop so the corporations can invest in emerging markets. Oh yeah and Cheney and friends make money in the process. SO IN CLOSING, MAYBE I'M OFF BASE HERE BUT ALL THIS BS IS CLEARLY EVIDENT TO ME AND I CARE BUT WHY DOESN'T THE MAJORITY OF AMERICANS CARE ABOUT ANYTHING BEYOND WHAT IS ON TV TONIGHT! The answer to this question is that they are stupid!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by AllSeeingI
I have heard the argument that this information should have not been released because it would jeopardize national security and endanger our troops.

First off: The idea of National Security can and is being manipulated by the powerful. Who are they, or anyone for that matter, to judge what should be kept secret and what should be released? I think we will find that 99% of the time secrets are kept for political reasons and not for keeping the troops safe.

Second Point: If we are worried about keeping the nation and troops safe then we shouldn’t be going to war in the first place. Our leaders put our troops in harm’s way, not the media!

If preemptive action is required to keep a rogue nation from obtaining nukes or whatever, then we should use our surgical air strikes and long-range bombers. Troops and boots-on-the-ground is an archaic and outmoded method of warfare. Like using a capgun in a nuke fight.

Final Point: Call me naive, but I believe that secrecy of any kind is a root of evil. If nations had no secrets, and all things were done in the open, there would be much less corruption and warmongering. Secrets are used to keep and hold power. Without their secrets, they are nothing.

No secrets? Do you know how very naive that statement is? It is human nature itself to want to secret information from one another. It is a very basic form of defense, it is also on a religious level, a basis for sin. Secrecy also leads to a great deal of other actions that need to be taken in order to perpetuate the initial secret as it is in fact a lie: a deception.

Are you willing to accept a nation naked to all who care to look through its information no matter what the question? The fact is, no one and no nation is perfect. Secrets are necessary to maintain pride, but in the case that is being mentioned here, secrets are required to maintain integrity...the integrity of a group whose ability to operate depends on the notion that few know what it is truly up to. Scary, huh? I'll bet you don't know exactly what happens to your mail when you put a stamp on it, but I'll bet there are secrets between when its dropped off in the mail box and when it arrives. Didn't hurt you too much, did it? Of course, you are probably one of those people who likes to pay their bills online...no secrets there, right? Sure. And there really is a tooth fairy too. By the time you've sent your information through your secure connection to your bank, its been open for perusal by authorities...secretly...to monitor for a variety of other activities that may be going on through that institution. Actually, this helps protect your money because fraud can be detected this way...secretly...but that would be asking too much, right?

To address your second point, surgical air strikes are effective in limited situations. There was never a war won where the opposition merely pointed their joysticks or asked their "Quake" or "Doom" counter-parts to destroy the enemy video game style. People are at war with people. There is no separating this fact. In the end, those people must fight each other or find peaceful resolution.

As for your first point, you are responsible for the people who decide what is and isn't secret. That is if you vote, that is if you care to vote. If you don't vote, then the point is moot. If you do vote and think you're not being heard, you're obviously not putting your words in the right places.

Try voicing your opinion directly to your congressman or senator or state senator. I'm sure you'll be pleased by the response. If you think the initial polite reply to your inquiry is too "wooden", keep it up. Then see exactly who is in charge of secrets. No happy, write your local paper.

The point, you need secrets. Don't believe me? Try making noise about it sometime and see what happens. I have $10 that says if you do try it, you'll wish you hadn't yearned for an "open" society.