Slave Descendants Try to Revive Lawsuit

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Originally posted by semperfortis
What is the number to call the mod that Ceci has brought up here and on her other posts so many times before?

The 'COMPLAIN' button at the top left hand of your screen. Just under the ATS sign.

Originally posted by ceci2006
I get amused at the pogrom that has happened because I expressed my view.
How does it feel being part of a cyberspace lynch mob? Having fun waving your pitchforks as you stomp through the main street of the village?

.... and there she goes. That was predictable. Everytime her position is shown to be fatally flawed she posts stuff like that trying to change the subject. CECI get on topic and answer LOAMs question - the one that is attached to the GETTYSBURG ADDRESS.




[edit on 10/1/2006 by FlyersFan]

I usually read instead of posting but I fell Imust reply to this. I am a divorced white male I have three children that live with me . I have a full time job. I don't qualfy for any wlefare programs in my state even though I pay for these programs with my taxes. my ancestery concises of native american, black, irish, and french. I guess what I'm trying to say is we all are obpressed in our own way . get up get a job and make alife for you and your children. quit waiting for the easy handout. blacks in this country get way more help than any white man so I think they already have their reperations don't you?

Originally posted by ceci2006
Or else, call a mod to decide this mess once and for all. Do it so we can return to the topic at hand.

Mod reporting for duty!

Okay, let's get BACK on topic.
No more bickering.
Discuss the TOPIC and not each other.
And, that means please keep it civil!!

original quote by pipefitter:
I guess what I'm trying to say is we all are obpressed in our own way . get up get a job and make alife for you and your children. quit waiting for the easy handout. blacks in this country get way more help than any white man so I think they already have their reperations don't you?

Your not the only one that feels that way. Many Prominent Blacks feel the same.

i.e.

But in fact, we are already paying reparations in a way. Affirmative action programs have been in place for over 30 years. They are very expensive. Federal, state and local governments spend money administering and enforcing them. Businesses spend more to make sure they are following the rules and defending themselves from administrative and legal action when someone thinks they are not. We also pay costs from increased incompetence and lower morale in the workplace.

Estimates of these costs vary. Some reach as high as hundreds of billions of dollars. But even if we accept lower estimates and remember that women and other minorities benefit from affirnative action policies, it it still clear that payments of tens of billions of dollars annually have been made to black Americans for decades. The fact that these payments do not seem to be doing much, if any, good, does not alter the fact that they are being made.
www.ashbrook.org...

Sorry about the repeat post, but it is appropriate here in response.

Semper

exactly semper! we are already paying for this. I do fell sorry for how my ancestors treated others so there is your apology ceci. However your ancestors are mine too. so I'm really apoligizing for myself. how many true blacks or irish or whatever still exist in this country anyways? I can and have traced my ancestory back several hundred years . some were black some were slaves some were white, do I really care? no I care about today and you should to. My black friends of which I have many don't waste their time worrying about this either so is it really blacks that want this or just a bunch of overpayed lawyers?

Originally posted by semperfortis

But in fact, we are already paying reparations in a way. Affirmative action programs have been in place for over 30 years.
...
The fact that these payments do not seem to be doing much, if any, good, does not alter the fact that they are being made.
www.ashbrook.org...

I'm glad you posted this again Semper because I missed it the first time. It's a point I agree with and think is very important in this discussion. I don't normally support Affirmative Action for the very reason that people do not seem to take full advantage of it. As is pointed out in the thread:

Black Incomes Surpass Whites in Queens

People who take full advantage of Affirmative Action seem to do very well with it. I see Affirmative Action and other social programs available to blacks as a form of reparations. If black people want something on top of that when they're not even taking advantage of what's available to them, I can't muster much support for it. Let's see the social programs (which prove to be successful) used to the fullest benefit before dipping further into the taxpayers' pockets to help one specific group.

posted by pipefitter

I am a divorced white male I have three children that live with me . I have a full time job. I don't qualify for any welfare programs in my state even though I pay for these programs with my taxes. [Edited by Don W]

Welfare programs in America are based on the economics of the applicant. I’m sorry about that. Every single parent needs help. Sure, if you have a six figure income, the government should not furnish free or low cost quality day care. IMO, the proper role of government is to establish high standards and to enforce the rules. Offering subsidized day care by open bidding would be one place where we could encourage small scale entrepreneurship and still provide a needed service.

Blacks in this country get way more help than any white man so I think they already have their reparations don't you? [Semper Fi then concurs] Exactly semper! we are already paying for this.

IMO, a very popular urban legend. How much is “ . . way more?” Sort of a rattling in a tin can nonsense. But very popular. The real issue is poverty and it is not the exclusive property of any ethnicity. It certainly benefits the R&Fs to keep the poor bickering among themselves. A second issue is whether the help any poor person gets is it enough?

One of the reasons for the continuing poverty in America is this. Not one identified problem has been adequately funded long enough to test the efficacy of the theory. Perhaps the single most beneficial program was the WIC program. Women, Infants and Children. Nutritionists have told us for decades it is extremely important - no, it is essential - for a child’s future growth and brain development to have a healthy mother and to receive good nutrition in its first 5 or 6 years of life. WIC was never able to reach more than 25% of the people eligible under the legal criteria. What is wrong with us?

I can trace my ancestry back several hundred years. Some were black some were slaves some were white, do I really care? No, I care about today. My black friends don't waste their time worrying about this either, so is it really blacks that want this or just a bunch of overpaid lawyers? [Edited by Don W]

Lawyers have to eat, too, Mr P. In the 1960s, 1970s, the union pipefitters enjoyed one of the highest paying crafts in America. They earned about 2-3 times the pay of a typical school teacher. I don’t know how the craft compares today, or even if we still have pipefitters.

I have heard national leaders on both sides of the aisle say they believe every American child should have as much education as his talent and ambition will bring him. So what’s the “student loan” crapola? Why can’t we pay each child to attend school as far his brains and ambition will take him? Or her. This does not mean we have to go crazy and pay ridiculous sums for college tuition. We make all this quasi-religious obsequious genuflection to the Free Market, so lets try some of it? Let the colleges bid for students. Suppose the government agreed to pay 90% of the low bid (of a qualified school in each state) to all that state’s students. They could then select from all schools nationwide for the school they could afford. Students’ who maintained B or better grades and had good attendance, would have the other 10% “forgiven” at the end of each school year.

Well, if we want to help instead of talk the talk, it is easy to do. So do you believe the talk? When will we begin the walk?


[edit on 10/1/2006 by donwhite]

We will begin the walk when those who sit around moaning get out ,get off welfare, and do something for themselves. BTW I don't make a 6 figure income I barely pay my bills. However I work with plenty of single black mothers and fathers who get all kinds of benefits from the state. my income isn't the problem its my race and gender. when my exwife had the kids she got housing and $400 a month food stamps. while I paid her child support. the state won't enforce child support on her though. my point is we are all in the same boat so why should some benefit and not others? and BTW you said something about free childcare for single mothers, how about single fathers? I pay about $110 a week.

DW,

Although I understand your premise, the idea of ANY more interaction by the Government into our lives is ABHORRENT to me and smells much like Socialism.

When did it become the Governments responsibility and not the Parents, to raise children?

If you are too poor to adequately raise your children, then don't have them. If you do, then suck it up and raise them.

What this is perpetuating is a society of "0" Responsibility. One in which every single citizen has the idea they can do anything they want to and as long as "Big Brother Government" is there, they can continue doing it. They can because Big Brother will fix it all. They will feed me, send my kids to school and even give me money each month to do it. And guess what, the more children I have, the more money the Government sends me. In a word, Socialism. The FAILED experiment...

The fact there are poor children is sad, and invokes all kinds of emotional response and is a GREAT talking point during the election season. The reality is, it is NOT the governments responsibility to support people. Not this Government.

Semepr

Originally posted by semperfortis
In a word, Socialism. The FAILED experiment...

Semepr

I don't quite agree there, Semper. Socialism is here in the UK and seems to work pretty well.
It might be down to having the right mix though, as in Europe, their Governments are under serious budget problems as a result of "over"socialism...

There are a few things that need sorting out, mind you, such as inequalities in benefit entitlement, as mentioned above. Immigrants and minorities do seem to have the most help. I have tried to get help before when my income was low and cost of living was high. Not entitled to a bean apparently. The Pakistani next to me with 8 kids and not a word of English not only gets a translator (at taxpayers expense) but also a free house, several hundred pounds a month in benefits and doesn't pay any council tax.


[edit on 1/10/06 by stumason]

Originally quoted by loam

I wish you understood that the key to improving the Black American experience is through economic prosperity. Fight like hell for real policies that ensure a level playing field- not lawsuits that will line the pockets of a few lawyers and take from the innocent payment for the sins of others.

Fine. I do. But how do you get rid of institutional and personal racism that happens on a daily basis going beyond the issue of economic prosperity? How do the perpetrators account for letting institutional and personal racism go on decade after decade, year after year?

Any suggestions?

Snap out of it.

Snap out of what, exactly?

How much do we really disagree on?

Only on the fact that you ignore that racism continues to happen despite this. Slavery's residue is a cause of some of the current prejudices today carried by those in the dominant culture. And that people continue to practice racism against people of color without wanting to understand that they are saying the same things in the guise of the same "superiority".

Furthermore, it is issues like these that demonstrate that prejudices and stereotypes from the dominant culture can be accepted and even praised when the problems expressed by a person of color get ignored or misconstrued.

So, we disgree in quite a few ways. And I will continue to read with futility how the depth of the issue of reparations continues to be used as another way to make the persons belonging to the dominant culture to stress their superiority. These very same persons willfully ignore the present racism that is happening in our society.

This superiority is often expressed as "intelligence", "patience" and "logic". I've witnessed this same stuff over and over again in real life. So, what's happening here is not new to me--especially when using the same old stereotypes to defame and malign a lawsuit that is seeking a sense of closure for not only the families involved, but the Black community.

So, like those corporations long ago getting money off the backs of Black people, enjoy your WATS. Feel content that you've gotten this off of not only my back, but the backs of others who have had to endure the taunting and the ridicule when trying to be heard about the racism we face practically all our lives by quite "well meaning, God-fearing" people.

But now, I'm quite content with amusement reading these responses of those who think they know about the depth of the problem when they truly, truly don't.



[edit on 1-10-2006 by ceci2006]

I don't quite agree there, Semper. Socialism is here in the UK and seems to work pretty well.

Perhaps my Friend, but there are numerous differences in our Governments.

We are based on the principles of Small Federal Government and relegated State Powers.

Also, we have the finest healthcare in the world, because it is based on the competition inherent in a free capital society. Our research is unequaled, sure drugs are cheaper elsewhere, but they are drugs our system developed.

It is just a matter of what this Country was based on. Personal Freedoms and Personal Responsibilities. That is what the US is all about and there are many that want to degrade us into some semblance of what goes on in Europe.

Many that feel that way, are also convinced that it is wrong for the US to have the "Foot up" in power period. They are the ones that want equality through out the world. That is a nice concept for some Disney Movie, but unrealistic in today's world.

Semper

For those that were waiting for me to post what my uncle said about my relatives, I will post it later tomorrow as I don't have the time to type it all up at the moment.

Cheers to everyone participating in this thread.

Originally posted by ceci2006

If something racist happened to you, would you think it was lame? If someone else called your reasons for racism a lame excuse, how would you react?

[edit on 30-9-2006 by ceci2006]

off topic (i think) :

happens every day

e.g. an person a non caucasian background makes racist comments about caucasian people or directly insults a person of caucasian ethnicity. Do you think that person will get anywhere with a lawsuit ? Well, not here believe me .
Racism goes both ways but somehow doesn't get handled the same way depending on who insults who.

We now have about 35 % foreigners (mostly europeans) living in our country, works out very well. On top of the 35 % foreigners another 120000 borderers (French ,Belgians and Germans) attracted by high salaries , very good social coverage and low taxes ,work here; that works great aswell.
I speak French without an acccent (which is not the case for most Luxemburgers) and you wouldn't believe the ammount of abuse i've heard about Luxemburg and Luxemburgers from French people who didn't know i was Luxemburgish and who actually make a living here. This is ,in my eyes, not a racial matter but definitely about prejudice.
There's is no way such a case would be accepted in court , the opposite though would make first pages on every national media.
"Luxemburgish subject gets fined/jailed for racist comments " it would only be right , but it only works one way.

Huh. Africans were enslaving their own before we ever found Arfica. And they were being enslaved by Arabs for years.

I bet they won't be suing them.

posted by pipefitter

“ . . When those who sit around moaning get out ,get off welfare, and do something for themselves. [Edited by Don W]

I don’t know if you meant to, pipefitter, but half the problems we face in American are incorporated in that sentence. It’s perception. How people perceive things around them. Like wearing special colored glasses. The saddest truth is that people who do need assistance - welfare as so many like to call it - get much less than they need. After a few years of begrudgingly nickeling and dime-ing the recipients, we declare the whole idea of helping our fellow man to be a failure. For a variety of reasons, we can’t get it right. We do wrong even when we mean to do right.

BTW I don't make a 6 figure income I barely pay my bills. However I work with plenty of single black mothers and fathers who get all kinds of benefits from the state. My income isn't the problem its my race and gender.

I am unaware of any Federal program that is race specific. We are often reminded that over half of the people receiving public assistance are white. That should be no surprise, because whites make up 70% of the population while blacks are 13%. Country-wide. A hidden story is the fact that blacks are 4 times as likely to be on public assistance as whites. All things being equal, that should be a red flag.

When my exwife had the kids she got housing and $400 a month food stamps. While I paid her child support. The state won't enforce child support on her though. My point is we are all in the same boat so why should some benefit and not others? and BTW you said something about free childcare for single mothers, how about single fathers? I pay about $110 a week.

Based on what you say, I surmise your wife works in a job that pays a lot less than your job pays you. If true, is that because you spend more energy in doing your job than she expends in doing her’s, or is it due to gender discrimination? That difference in pay could explain why she is eligible for both public housing and food assistance and you are not. It could also explain the different approach to child support payments. Example: if she makes $400 a week and you make $800 a week, then you are going to pay more child support, no doubt about it. And, her lower income may exempt her from paying any support at all. You have pointed out the No. 1 problem Domestic Relations Courts face. How to make a barely adequate income for 1 household stretch to take care of 2 households. I agree. In France, the government pays the custodian of a child - usually the parents - a monthly amount. As in $90 a month pre-school and $120 a month for K-12. We almost got that here, the EITC - Earned Income Tax Credit. I think that program has been killed. I would like to see the parent’s part of the day care bill, limited to about 5% of after tax income.

But we Americans love our armored Humvees more than we love our own children, don’t we? And if you can’t (or won’t) pay for both, you know which is going to be shortchanged, don’t you?

posted by Hvitserk

“ . . a person a non Caucasian background makes racist comments about Caucasian people or directly insults a person of Caucasian ethnicity. Do you think that person will get anywhere with a lawsuit ? Well, not here believe me. [Edited by Don W]

You are going too fast, Mr H. Get out of the “law suit” mode of thinking. I have learned the very best way to communicate with another person is to - - - - listen. Try that. I guarantee no one will ever become angry towards you or feel slighted by you, if you will - - - - listen. 2 more things will help you more than it helps others. First, when driving, always let a person get in front of you. Not everyone, but one. Second, when in the grocery store and waiting in line, let someone one with only a couple items ahead of you.

I speak French without an accent which is not the case for most Luxembourger . . “

I don’t know if my experience can be repeated in your situation, Mr. H. I was addressing my remarks primarily for Americans, but I can’t help but think the same approach - giving space and deference to strangers - would work there, too. Try it for 1 week, then report back. OK?

posted by semperfortis

DW, I understand your premise, the idea of ANY more interaction by the Government into our lives is ABHORRENT to me and smells much like Socialism.

Herbert Hoover was known around the world as the “Great Engineer.” He had distinguished himself as a civil engineer and even more as the manager of the Belgium Food Relief Program immediately following WW1. But Hoover lost the 1932 re-election to FDR because he refused to move towards accommodating the urgent needs of 10s of millions of Americans. How could this man who so significantly helped Belgians, refuse to help his fellow Americans? Times had changed and he failed to see it, to answer my own question. Point? You cannot go back. You may change direction, but you cannot go back.

FDR’s genius was in saving capitalism by giving it a social conscience. I’ll say no more on that for what is obvious to me is equally obvious to you.

When did it become the Governments responsibility and not the Parents, to raise children? If you are too poor to adequately raise your children, then don't have them. If you do, then suck it up and raise them.

Why make children suffer for the mistakes of the parents? You know, S-F, that was the practice down through history. Look in the Old Testamen, Exodus 20:5. “I , the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the 3rd and 4th generation of those who hate me . . “ Even as late as the 18th century, our own English forebears punished treason to the Crown by denying the right of inheritance for 3 generations. The FFs felt strongly enough about it to put a provision in our own Constitution to stop that practice here. See Article III, Sec. 3, Clause 2. “ . . no attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood or forfeiture except during the lifetime of the person attained.” (Attainder being the conviction of treason.)

If you want, S-F, make it a crime to have children you cannot afford, but do not blame the children. (You may note I do not often use the word “innocent.” That is intentional on my part.)

“ . . They will feed me, send my kids to school and even give me money each month to do it. And guess what, the more children I have, the more money the Government sends me. In a word, Socialism. The FAILED experiment . . “

As a socialist, I resent the easy jump from fornicating to socialism in one step. Don’t forget it is us ACLU socialist-types who have caused condoms to be made available in middle schools and high schools. A room filled with brown paper bags, where the student can take one (or many I suppose) without being identified. Hmm? How many inopportune or unwanted or unaffordable children do you think that measure has prevented? You’d think every anti-choice person would support this.

The fact there are poor children is sad, and invokes all kinds of emotional response and is a GREAT talking point during the election season. The reality is, it is NOT the governments responsibility to support people. Not this Government. Semepr [Edited by Don W]

You are strict! You are strident! You are not alone! I expect you would get more votes here than I would. But, like you, I refuse to change. I prefer my POV, as you probably prefer your POV. I like my position better than I like yours because I think I offer reasons and answers to the issues and questions you raised. And I am conceited enough to think that in the end, my POV will prevail. Because I am on the high ground. I trust that if my logic and reasoning is the better one, that enough people will concur to make it happen. My way.

Have a good day, S-F.


[edit on 10/2/2006 by donwhite]

But DW

You are only on the "High Ground" as "you" perceive it.

As I see it, that simply propagates more and more dependence on the very same government that Liberals/Socialist claim is corrupt.

Do you see the hypocrisy in that?

I'm not punishing or blaming the children. In this particular topic, they are an unfortunate side effect. They NEED to be helped, YES YES, By their fellow man, NOT THE GOVERNMENT!!!

The Governments job by it's very definition is to GOVERN, not too support.

Keep giving the government more power and more influence in our lives and see who winds up on the "High Ground?" It wont be Koresh or Weaver....

Semper

posted by semperfortis

But DW - You are only on the "High Ground" as "you" perceive it. As I see it, that simply propagates more and more dependence on the very same government that Liberals Socialist claim is corrupt. Do you see the hypocrisy in that? [Edited by Don W]

Government is not corrupt. It is the Administration that is corrupt. No social compact between people exists without government. It is too unfortunate that we Americans use those terms - government and administration - interchangeably. We are about to shoot ourselves in the foot. We cannot exist without government. We can change the administration at the next election. But we can’t go without government.

I'm not punishing or blaming the children. In this particular topic, they are an unfortunate side effect. They NEED to be helped, YES YES, By their fellow man, NOT THE GOVERNMENT! The Governments job by it's very definition is to GOVERN, not too support.

I’m glad Mr. Webster is not in charge here. There would be a lot of hungry people. As far as liberals go, we are on the moral high ground. Make no mistake about that. The idea that “private” charity can do what is obviously in need of being done is to play the one-eyed giant in the Jack and Beanstalk tale. It is not necessary everyone agree on exactly how or when or even what is to be done by the collective - government - but to seriously believe it can be done privately is to play the part of the proverbial ostrich.

To seal the fallacy about private charity, since it is private, and can act anytime it wills, how come we still have the same problems we have had for generations?

Keep giving the government more power and more influence in our lives and see who winds up on the "High Ground?" It wont be Koresh or Weaver. Semper [Edited by Don W]

Randy Weaver - who got $3 million in settlement - brought on the deaths of his wife and child by his “fringe” conduct. As far as I know about the case, he made the mistake so often made by people who want to cut down shotguns; they can’t determine where the chamber ends and the barrel begins. He apparently thought the barrel was chambered for 2.75 inch shells, but in reality, it was chambered for 3 inch shells. Randy missed it by 1/4th inch. That was a felony no-no.

“David Koresh was born Vernon Wayne Howell in Houston, Texas in 1959 to a 15-year old single mother. He never knew his father and was raised by his . . “ from Google. A megalomanic paranoid sex freak. What else can I say? After the government waited 80 days for him to show respect for the courts of America, he may or may not have burned the compound and its occupants. If he had obeyed the law of the land, there would have been no fire in Waco. He and his child abusing followers get all the credit.

Neither of those men are worth mentioning in any serious discussion or right or wrong and liberal and conservative and government and administration. IMO.

On the issue of “more power” it is liberals and ACLU types who are fighting to slow down and even reverse the ruthless grab for more power by the current administration. Again, we’re on the High Ground!


[edit on 10/2/2006 by donwhite]