Slave Descendants Try to Revive Lawsuit

Again

YOUR High ground not mine.

If the Administration is not the government, then what is? Your interpretation of the constitution? I hope not, because all. 100% of your social programs are NOT addressed there. They are what they are, a socialist experiment and they are destroying this country. Rapidly.

My high ground is made up of people responsible for their own actions. Hard working, dedicated family people that know the only things in this world you deserve, is what you work for. Not some "Hand out" because you were born. Not some welfare queen squeezing babies out so she gets more money from "your: government to go buy her crack with.

Oh Yeah, 20+ years working and living in the projects taught me a lot of life lessons about "Your High Ground." Your High ground is 12 stories of unemployed welfare recipients spraying graffiti for a living while they gamble their foodstamps away.

In "Your High Ground" they had to go to a food "Card", because over 50% of all food stamps wound up being sold for 10 cents on the dollar on the corner.

In "Your High Ground" 70% of all Black Children grow up fatherless. WHY? Why not, the check keeps coming and one more brother or sister to little Tommy means 200 more in the check.

In "Your High Ground" 30% of all Welfare recipients actually make a "reverse" rent. That's correct, the Government PAYS them to stay in Government provided homes.

In "Your High Ground" Ambulance workers routinely report a large percentage of "Injuries" are actually a free ride into town. I mean why pay a taxi, when the Government sponsored Ambulance will take you.

Yeah, My High Ground is a LOT harder. I mean you have to actually work for a living. Some of US, that's right US as in me too, have had to work 2 and 3 jobs to raise our children. Much harder than your "High Ground." My first Police job paid 5.25 an hour. Not enough for 2 daughters, so I worked at a convenience store and loaded UPS trucks on the weekends I was off.
We have to actually raise our children and really teach them at home. We don't expect the Government to teach them for us.

See, in my "High Ground" the United States doe not OWE me a life. I have to go out and make one.

My Grandmother raised me on 120.00 a month in Social Security. NEVER once taking anything from the government. We ate what we raised. I went to school in work boots, not 200.00 shoes called Jordans paid for by a welfare check. Jeans that were worn, but clean.

Know what else, I had the audacity to actually work my way through school to get my Bachelors Degree!!! SHOCKING!!! I worked and paid my OWN tuition. I don't know if the government would have paid or not, I was raised better.

Then I actually went in the Marines... GOOD GRACIOUS!!!! I also served the country that gave the the opportunity to WORK. That gave me the opportunity to struggle and get my degree. I actually thought I owed the United States a debt. AGAIN SHOCKING!!!

No, Not a high ground, what you advocate is the systematic destruction of the greatest social experiment on the planet.

Semper

posted by semperfortis

If the Administration is not the government, then what is? Your interpretation of the constitution? I hope not . . [Edited by Don W]

Well, by “government” I mean the form of government. The people who are serving us are what I call the “administration.” Maybe it is a distinction without a difference, but it helps me keep straight what I’m really for versus what I’m really against.

It seems irrational to be against “government.” That is anarchy. That is what is happening in much of Iraq. It is the opposite of “law and order.”

“ . . 100% of your social programs are NOT addressed there. They are what they are, a socialist experiment and they are destroying this country. Rapidly.

I ask you to read the preamble to our Constitution. It sets forth the goals of the FFs. Whatever country we have here, we owe to George Washington. He is more responsible for America than any single man. He believed in a strong central government. His first Secretary of the Treasury Alexander Hamilton set up the first National Bank of the United States. Through sound banking principles Hamilton was able to make an America whose credit was recognized around the world. One of the first revolutionary governments ever to be able to pay its bills.

Thomas Jefferson did not like a strong central government. He defeated Adams in 1800 and began then a long period of weak central government advocates. Which brought us to the Civil War.

Abraham Lincoln saved the Union. By a strong central government. After the war, we reverted back to a weak central government. In WW1, Wilson again imposed a strong central government. After the war, we returned to a weak central government.

Then came the Great Depression. We went to a strong central government that also led us through World War Two. Then we argued whether to have a strong or weak central government. We are still arguing that issue. I suppose that is because we see the world differently and have different goals and aspirations. I agree it takes a villae to raise a child. You do not. Community versis the individual. That’s why we have divided into Red states and Blue states.


[edit on 10/2/2006 by donwhite]

FYI

Here is a Special issue of the Journal of Social Philosophy that looks at the issue of repartations. A number of papers in it are freely available.
www.blackwell-synergy.com...

I haven't read them myself yet, but they look like they might be informative.

Originally posted by forestlady
I have to agree with Nygdan on this one. The thing is, slavery created an entire class of Blacks that have never recovered from slavery.

Shouldn't people take responsibility for bettering themselves regardless of the past? If this is going to be a good excuse, everyone can just stop trying because every group of people has been enslaved or discriminated against at one time or another. Some crazy nazi NUTCASE tried exterminating an entire group of people during ww2 but the jewish community bounced back and are now thriving.

I lived in Mississippi for 3 years back in the mid-70's. Almost every Black person there was poor, owned next to nothing and couldn't afford to even feed their kids properly.

Yeah? really? well I live in Michigan and there are no jobs and everyone regardless of color is pretty damn poor. When do I get my reperations for being white and enslaved by the Michigan economy?

There were no jobs for Blacks unless it was as a maid, janitor or picking cotton. There just weren't other opportunities. If a Black person did become a doctor or lawyer, there only recourse was to have other Blacks as clients, who of course couldn't afford to pay very much. This has now become a generational thing.

Well the 70's have been over for 27 years and now low income families have local, regional and federal support. There are food programs, school programs, health programs and housing programs for the poor.

I mean how many Black CEO's do you see? They're still considered sescond class citizens by alot of people. So, yes, I think reparations are in order. Besides that, slavery is just plain wrong, every bit as much as what happened to the Jews in Germany in WWII.

Everyone is considered a 2nd class citizen to every other group to some extent so do we give reperations to everyone for every really bad thing that happened to our ancestors? When does the "give me", "I deserve something " mentality give away to the "pull yourself up by your boot straps and make a better life for yourself?

How far back in time do we go with this?
Weren't the Spartans abused by the Persians?
What about the Salem Witch Trials?
Or the inquisition?
Or the Napolionic Wars?
What about that real strong Neanderthal that forced another Neanderthal to do his housework for him? Does his ancestor get reperations too?

Look, I don't think anyone should be discriminated against for anything but making our current generation pay for something they had nothing to do with is absurd. This isn't free money that could be paid out. It's going to come from all of us. I had nothing to do with slavery but I have to pay for it? WHY?

I condemn slavery and I think if there are any slave owners out there, lets hunt them down and jail them. I think if there are any ex-slaves out there, lets go ahead and pay them as what happened to them was horrific. BUT, if there aren't, why can't we all just get along and take responsibility for our own CURRENT lives.

reply to post by forestlady


Forestlady I have to agree with Nygdan on this one. The thing is, slavery created an entire class of Blacks that have never recovered from slavery. I lived in Mississippi for 3 years back in the mid-70's. Almost every Black person there was poor, owned next to nothing and couldn't afford to even feed their kids properly. There were no jobs for Blacks unless it was as a maid, janitor or picking cotton. There just weren't other opportunities.

I think everyone today agrees that the institution of slavery as practiced in the US prior to 1865 was an abomination. Although the North won the Civil War, the South “won” the peace. Terrorism, American style. Ku Klux Klan. And other groups almost always including local law men.

Good records show that between 1865 and 1968 more than 3,000 black men were lynched in America’s south. Lynching is not a quick neck snapping hanging. It is strangulation. A full minute or 2 to die. That’s where the expression “dancing on the end of a rope” originates. More than 15,000 black men were so severely beaten - whipped - they never recovered. More than 50,000 black homesteads were burned out. As little as those folks had, they ended with nothing at all. Surprisingly even Associate Justice Thomas is still angry - too angry - over that era and its consequences. I think every vote he casts is a form of revenge.

A successful suit? Our courts are not endowed with plenary power. Common law demands an applicable precedent. Statutory law demands an act of a legislature. Statutes of limitation apply. Except for the crime of murder, even felonies are time-limited. Everybody knows it but nobody can do anything about it.

Reparations. 120,000 Japanese Americans were interned during WW2 by President Roosevelt. Ex. Ord. 9066. The effort to undo the harm done was started by Pres. Ford in 1976 who said it “was wrong” to have violated the constitutional rights of those people. The next step was the Civil Liberties Act of 1988 signed by Pres. Reagan. In 1992 Pres. Bush signed an amendment to that law paying $20,000 to each of the survivors or to their heirs. About $2.4 billion. He also offered a formal apology on the part of the United States government.

Reparations. So we know we can do it if we want to do it. I believe the number of slaves in 1865 was 3 million. Today, their descendants number about 40 million. For a lot of reasons it is hard to impossible to locate the descendants of those slaves or for people today to hunt down their own ancestors. Many slaves had only 1 name. Records were skimpy. Some bills of sale merely say so many men, so many women and so many children. If it was only a matter of working through existing records, that would be one thing, but it is not. There just are not regular records kept that will give us that information. Sure, if we DNA’d all 40 million African Americans we could probably find their common ancestors. But we don’t need to do that.

We have the money. We don’t have the will. We are perfectly capable of spending $2 billion a week in Iraq. Ad nauseam. Yet we don’t like spending $7 billion a year on our own children’s health care. We'd rather argue how much money their parents make. We don’t want to spend a half trillion on fixing our own roads, bridges and infrastructure, yet we say not a word when we are told we’ll be lucky if Iraq does not cost us $2 t. before it's over. it’s weird.

Suppose we put $25 billion a year for 25 years into a Slave Reparations Fund. SRF. We could use an electronic chromo-graph device to see if a person was black enough to qualify. Like barcoding. Pay to each black parent who enrolls his or her child in a quality school, $5,000 a year to apply to school costs. Pay the parent, NOT the school. Otherwise it would be a land grab race to defraud. First time black homeowners could get a $25,000 grant and a 5% 20 years mortgage. Hardship cases like older blacks who are disabled or impoverished could apply for grants. It’s easy to figure ways to help people who need help through no fault of their own; people who are severely disadvantaged. What is lacking is the will and leadership. It takes both.

[edit on 10/6/2007 by donwhite]

Originally posted by centurion1211
By the time anyone got their check, it would probably amount to only about $1,000

But all that is the stuff they leave out when pushing this reparations boondoggle.

Worthwhile??? You tell me ...

Worthwhile if you're amongst the legal team pursuing this suit.

Just settle the lawsuit in 1860s dollar valuations. After all, that's the era in which the crimes were committed. And with such alleged loss of record-keeping how will the courts know who should receive reparations?

This by the way gets into the very tricky legal arena of "ex post facto".

[edit on 10/6/2007 by titian]

reply to post by semperfortis


semperfortis If the Administration is not the government, then what is? Your interpretation of the constitution? I hope not, because all. 100% of your social programs are NOT addressed there. They are what they are, a socialist experiment and they are destroying this country. Rapidly.

OK. I use the term “government” to indicate the institution of governance we are under. Three co-equal branches. Republican in form but elected democratically. Each president has his own administration. These are his appointees and his policies. When each president is changed, the incoming one will have a new administration but our government remains the same. We don’t have to re-invent the wheel every 4 or 8 years. It does look as if I am putting more emphasis on this distinction than you do.

The reason I feel stonily about distinguishing one from the other is the Republicans have attacked the very foundations of government. Look what we have today. ONE inspector for the entire US in the Consumer Product Safety Commission. 1 agent to check on imports. That is no accident. Republicans realize the public WANTS to be protected from harm and abuse. Republicans do not want that as part of government. The GOP has known since 1981 it could not win an up and down vote to abolish the Consumer Product Safety Commission in Congress. So they stripped it! Gutted it!

That practice began under Reagan. He wanted to abolish everything but national defense and debt service. But his first Congress was controlled by Democrats. He was advised he could not UNDO the New Deal and the Great Society. It was too popular with the public. We have just found out the Department of Agriculture has but 100 inspectors to assure us we have a safe food supply. This for 300,000,000 people. 100. We’d be under manned with 5,000 but as it is, they can’t even pee on fires.

Katrina. It was a failure of the Bush43 Administration. It was not a failure of government per se that resulted in the fiasco known as “New Orleans.” A new synonym for a botched job. By the bye, it is still a fiasco, more than 2 years on. And billions tossed causally down the tube. But for Republicans the Katrina failure is a win win scenario. All too many see failure there as an example of the impotency of organized government. Even if the GOP get some “heat” for ripping FEMA into mere shell of what it had been, for the GOP it is a WIN because it is one more PROOF that government does not work. It confirms Reagan’s edict: Government is the problem not the solution.”

One more example. Blackwater is the predictable outcome of an OVER-STRETCHED military. The numbers vary but I heard this past week we have 10,000 or 25,000 of those private mercenaries in Iraq. To Iraqis they represent America but are under no law! It’s no wonder 68% of Iraqis want the US out of Iraq ASAP.

It is imperative that we KNOW the difference between the apparatus of governance and the people who are holding that in their hands at any given time.

[edit on 10/7/2007 by donwhite]

Again, I'm just curious but if reperations are reasonable, then what are we going to do about every other horrible thing that happened in the past and how far back are we going to go?

reply to post by jfj123


jfj123 reperations are reasonable, then what are we going to do about every other horrible thing that happened in the past and how far back are we going to go?

How about doing the RIGHT thing?

reply to post by semperfortis


semperfortis Know what else, I had the audacity to actually work my way through school to get my Bachelors Degree!!! SHOCKING!!! I worked and paid my OWN tuition. I don't know if the government would have paid or not, I was raised better. Then I actually went in the Marines... GOOD GRACIOUS!!!! I also served the country that gave the opportunity to WORK. That gave me the opportunity to struggle and get my degree. I actually thought I owed the United States a debt. AGAIN SHOCKING!!! No, Not a high ground, what you advocate is the systematic destruction of the greatest social experiment on the planet. Semper

In your self-promotion, Mr S/F, you have lost something. E M P A T H Y. Not everyone is born with the same self-reliance. You offer a lecture on self help to people desperately in need. You ignore the circumstances over which they have no control. Pure Reagan-esque.

You might say we’ve tried Reaganism since 1980 with an ever so slight hiatus in the 1993-2001 time frame. Reagan's anti-social policies have not worked unless you call today better than yesterday. We have a lot of problems here, but it is so hard to address them in a rational way because so many people are irrational. They prefer government by slogan. Read off cue cards. So many people cannot see the forest for the trees.

[edit on 10/7/2007 by donwhite]

Originally posted by donwhite
reply to post by jfj123

 

jfj123 reperations are reasonable, then what are we going to do about every other horrible thing that happened in the past and how far back are we going to go?

How about doing the RIGHT thing?

So how do we compensate the slaves? I wish we could but they're all dead. If we are going to find it reasonable to compensate slaves descendants, we must also find it reasonable to compensate every other group that was abused throughout history.

The Native Americans
Polish, hungarian, Jews, etc... of Nazi Germany
Salem witch trials
Chinese while the US railroads were built
Spartans by the Persians
Everybody else by the Persians
The Crusades
The Knights Templar
The Inquisition
Indiginous populations by the Spanish Conquistadors
The American Revolution
ETC...
ETC...
ETC...

If you agree that reperations are reasonable for descendants of African slaves, you must also agree reperations are reasonable for EVERY group of people throughout history that were HORRIFICALLY mistreated and abused.

So who is going to be put in charge of all this mammoth undertaking?
Who will pay for the costs to run and manage this undertaking?
How much money is everyone going to get?
Where is the money going to come from?

Remember, the money isn't free, it comes from somewhere. That somewhere is ME and YOU.

My ancestors came from Whales, Poland, Hungry. My ancestors and myself never had had anything to do with slavery of Africans so why must I pay for not them but their descendants.

If discrimination or mistreatment has happened to any of their descendants in modern America, they have plenty of legal recourse and resources to sue on the basis of discrimination.

Maybe "doing the right thing" is honoring the memory of all the groups of people that were mistreated throughout history and make sure that those AWFUL things NEVER happen again. Paying off the past isn't learning from the past.

I am a descendant of slaves and I see no reason why I should get reparations. These people are the only ones responsible for their situation. Not someone over 150 years ago.

Most of these people where brought up under negative circumstances, and developed extremely damaging beliefs about their world and their enviroment. That's the cause of their situation. They're indoctrinated with the belief that they will never amount to much. Only the most strong willed, those who refuse to accept those damaging beliefs, and prefer to focus on bringing the life they want can achieve success in such an enviroment.

reply to post by TheBandit795


TheBandit795 I am a descendant of slaves and I see no reason why I should get reparations. These people are the only ones responsible for their situation. Not someone over 150 years ago. Most of these people where brought up under negative circumstances, and developed extremely damaging beliefs about their world and their environment. That's the cause of their situation.

Not to worry, Mr TheBandit795 white America is very unlikely to give black Americans anything but a hard time. Generous they are NOT unless you are talking WAR in which case $2 billion a week is not too much. But to undo or even to mitigate the disadvantage 400 years worked on a people, that’s TOO much. Heck, it took from 1945 to 1990 to pay $20,000 to the Japanese Americans. Skimpy pay in my mind. Overly long in getting it.

TheBandit795 They're indoctrinated with the belief that they will never amount to much. Only the most strong willed, those who refuse to accept those damaging beliefs, and prefer to focus on bringing the life they want can achieve success in such an environment.

Strong will? Weak will? Aren’t those terms both subjective and not equally applicable in all circumstances? It looks to me like the sea change brought on by Brown v. Topeka is about finished. Most public schools are more segregated now than any time after 1954. On the outside schools look integrated. On the inside they are segmented. It’s called “tracks.” Whites are on the fast tracks, blacks get the slow tracks. You might say Brown is dead. The current Supreme Court has all but overruled it.

We had a glimmer of light, but now a dark cloud is passing over.

[edit on 10/8/2007 by donwhite]

Not to worry, Mr TheBandit795 white America is very unlikely to give black Americans anything but a hard time. Generous they are NOT unless you are talking WAR in which case $2 billion a week is not too much. But to undo or even to mitigate the disadvantage 400 years worked on a people, that’s TOO much. Heck, it took from 1945 to 1990 to pay $20,000 to the Japanese Americans. Skimpy pay in my mind. Overly long in getting it.

I have never given any person with a different ethnic background a hard time because of their ethnic background so I really don't appreciate you lumping me and people I know into an ignorant minority. I absolutely believe nobody should be discriminated against for ANY reason including ethnic background...PERIOD !!!!

Strong will? Weak will? Aren’t those terms both subjective and not equally applicable in all circumstances? It looks to me like the sea change brought on by Brown v. Topeka is about finished. Most public schools are more segregated now than any time after 1954. On the outside schools look integrated. On the inside they are segmented. It’s called “tracks.” Whites are on the fast tracks, blacks get the slow tracks. You might say Brown is dead. The current Supreme Court has all but overruled it.

Again lumping everyone into a few categories. The world isn't that black and white. You are making it sound as if all white people get the good stuff and all black people get cheated. This assumption is absolutely wrong. I can say for a fact, as a white american, I have less opportunities then minorities. I had no chance for scholarships or grants when I went to college as I was not a minority and affirmative action did not apply to me. While people with lower test scores receive FREE money to goto college, I had to pay for all my college tuition with blood, sweat, tears and A LOT OF MONEY. Tell me please how that puts me on the fast track?

Im 23 years old, My family has been in America since George Washington, I cant and I wont apoligize for anything my ansestors did way back when, Simply because I wasnt alive.. I had no voice in those days.Now I have no beef with African Americans but they need to realize that there are no longer any slave oweners alive in this country, those days are long gone, stop livivg in the past and start building a future. How can sombody today be held accountable for the actions of sombody related to them that was done decades ago? Not to mention that at the time of incident slave trade was legal. If in 10 years cigarettes are illegal then you cant bust me for smoking a cigarette 20 years prior when the were legal

reply to post by jfj123


jfj123 I can say for a fact, as a white American, I have less opportunities then minorities. I had no chance for scholarships or grants when I went to college as I was not a minority and affirmative action did not apply to me. While people with lower test scores receive FREE money to goto college

Boo Hoo! The bottom line problem is you believe what you are saying. I am sure you feel better believing that stuff. But believing it don't make it so!

[edit on 10/9/2007 by donwhite]

reply to post by tac109


tac109 I’m 23 years old. My family has been in America since George Washington . . Now I have no beef with African Americans but they need to realize that there are no longer any slave owners alive in this country, Those days are long gone, stop living in the past and start building a future. Not to mention that at the time of incident slave trade was legal.

I’m especially sympathetic towards young people. Children are our future. They are our guests. None of them asked to be here. We owe them, they do not owe us. We pay that debt by leaving the world better than we found it.

African Americans were first sold in tobacco growing Jamestown VA in 1619. Oddly enough, they were not considered slaves. They were considered indentured servants. Ah, but race reared its ugly head. Whereas white indentured servants typically worked off their debt in 5 or 7 years, blacks were held in servitude up to 20 years. By 1680 industrious free blacks were becoming competitors to the whites. It was then that blacks began to be considered as chattel, as slaves, as property. No freedom. No competition. Hey, “free market” was unknown then.

I would venture that 80% of every ante-bellum home or building in the Old South was built in whole or in part with slave labor. Today, if you don’t pay the workers, they have a mechanics lien on the property for the value of their labor. That’s why a new home buyer needs to have every workman sign off that he’s been paid by the general or sub contractor.

OK, enough of the cry-baby stuff. Ignore unequal educational opportunity from then to now. Ignore last hired first fired. Ignore blue lining blacks out of home loans in good neighborhoods. Today they use green ink as in credit scores. A lot of good and better than good jobs are obtained by networking. Old school ties. Like in Ky, the Big Blue, TN, the Orange, or in FL, Do Gator! Swank country clubs for members only. Gated commun9ities. No drive by shootings there.

You don’t start on top if you are a Jackson State type. I mention Jackson State because 2 weeks after Kent State, the Alabama State Police shot 100s of bullets into Jackson State killing 3 students. Hmm. Bad time for students everywhere.

At 23 tac109, you should still be in a favorable learning mode. Go to it. By the time you are 30, remember the advice they gave in the anti-Vietnam War era? “Never trust anyone over 30.”

[edit on 10/9/2007 by donwhite]

Originally posted by donwhite
reply to post by jfj123

 

jfj123 I can say for a fact, as a white American, I have less opportunities then minorities. I had no chance for scholarships or grants when I went to college as I was not a minority and affirmative action did not apply to me. While people with lower test scores receive FREE money to goto college

Boo Hoo! The bottom line problem is you believe what you are saying. I am sure you feel better believing that stuff. But believing it don't make it so!

[edit on 10/9/2007 by donwhite]

Well first, I am not complaining for anyone to feel sorry for me so drop the BOO HOO garbage. I have 2 degree's and own 2 businesses so I'm good regardless.

What I have stated is correct and verifiable. Why are the facts I presented a problem? Has it affected how I interact with any ethnic background? NO.

Actually, what makes it so is that it is so.

Maybe you should read a few articles about Michigan dropping affirmative action programs.
Maybe you should read about a few lawsuits brought about by non-minority students who have been discriminated against buy being refused admission even though they had higher test scores and school grades to minorities let in to the same schools.

Maybe you should understand that affirmative action is discriminatory.

Why don't you believe EVERYONE should be treated equally?

reply to post by jfj123


jfj123 Why don't you believe EVERYONE should be treated equally?

Because it's phony! It’s disingenuous. It’s opportunism at its nastiest!

Whites only came very late into the "believe in equal rights” philosophy. When by some twist of fate blacks who NEED and DESERVE preferential treatment at the public trough, are getting some, it is suddenly whites who are demanding equal rights. Baloney! Death bed conversions. Jail house religion.

Thoughtful and sincere efforts aimed at undoing the immeasurable harm done - or mitigate it - to generations of a people only because they were not white, is fair, honorable and very late. It’s the only RIGHT tining to do.

It is selfish obfuscation to resist any remedial efforts on the grounds of EQUALITY. A term for which white people have ignored since 1619. And are doing so today. 2007.

Sorry, no medals due for 2 degrees.




[edit on 10/10/2007 by donwhite]

Originally posted by donwhite
Boo Hoo! The bottom line problem is you believe what you are saying. I am sure you feel better believing that stuff. But believing it don't make it so!

Remember the word you spelled out for us white idiots a few posts up? EMPATHY? Guess it's a one way street, eh?

But your quote above PERFECTLY sums up my feelings on the whole reparations issue.