Slave Descendants Try to Revive Lawsuit

Pardon for the brief interruption, but I just saw the tags for this thread...



:shk:

No wonder race relation issues continue in this country.

Originally posted by semperfortis
There seems to be a rather unique phenomenon that occurs on this thread and the others like it.

Lots and LOTS of posting about personal opinion, personal events and random slices of baloney. Then when anyone posts "Proof", "Links" or articles that go against the victim train of thought, there is only silence.

Semper

Not sure if directed at me and I suppose I may have gone off on a tangent, but what I said is the truth. Albeit, it is only observational, made by myself, but you only have to come to the UK to examine it for yourself at first hand to see that what I said is bang on.

It's convenient to play the victim as it means an easy life. The handouts that "disadvantaged" persons already receive is counter productive, as one becomes reliant on them and comfortable in the situation. It also becomes easier to cry for more handouts and how the government isnt doing enough, when really, the Governenment does too much.

Not at you at all Stu

Semper

Originally posted by donwhite
I would prefer to express it in less bellicose, more polite terms.

Okay. That's fine. No problem. I just like to call a shake down what it is.
A shake down.

... the maximum number of children in the lower 6 grades at 20 per classroom and add a qualified teacher’s aide. Give every child his or her choice of a hot breakfast or a hot lunch.

I'm right there with you. Absolutely. And where do we get this money? CUT FOREIGN AID and SPENDING. Yep. Instead of sending billions upon billions overseas; spend it on Americans here. We have plenty of Americans, of ALL races, who need help. 6 billion to Africa for AIDS research? Forget it! 6 billion would go VERY far for the poor in the Appalachians or Baltmore. All those 'forgiven' debts by foreign countries? Forget it! Make then pay for the goods they have bought from us. That money pays American workers.

Spend American money on Americans. But don't call it 'reparations'. Because I have nothing to 'reparate' and I strongly object to that term. And don't use it for black-only projects. It should be for ALL Americans in need.

God knows we’ve tried everything else.

If we have tried everything then why isn't it working? There is one more thing that needs to be discussed and BH brought it up. SELF RESPONSIBILITY. I understand that not everyone is in a position to be able to do that, but many are. Look at Dr. Condi Rice. Love her or hate her; she came from humble beginnings and when her friend was murdered in the church bombing in Birmingham she decided she was going to work 'twice as hard' so that she could get ahead. Those are her words. And so she worked hard and look at her now - speaks fluent Russian; is a published author; doctorate; Pianist; Secretary of State for the USA; in a position to effect WORLD events! Love her or hate her ... she took self responsibility and made her life what it is. She could have sat back and felt sorry for herself because she was black and had a humble birth. She didn't. She made her life work.

posted by semperfortis

And that is what "YOU" say. Not evidence Only you voicing an opinion with nothing of substance. And lets say your correct, that your one instance is valid. How does that diminish what I have posted? Semper [Edited by Don W]

And you are right, it is not fair to paint with such a broad brush. Historically, it is true the Democrats - more particularly the Southern Democrats - were supremely racists. One was particularly disconnected, Sen. Theodore Bilbo of Mississippi. Horrid man. I can recall Movietone newsreels showing him in a Senate filibuster blocking Pres. Truman’s effort to desegregate Federal housing. Truman lost. But times do change and it was a Southerner, Lyndon Johnson who made the most significant change. Then is then, now is now.



[edit on 9/30/2006 by donwhite]

I just have three things to say:

1)By virtue of the right of past relatives to "volunteer" to fight for the Union army, removes all claims for "getting reparations" due their deaths in the army. "Volunteering" conveys a choice. And when there is a choice, then they equally have a choice not to fight or become a conscientious objector. Unless they were forced into the Union side by "conscription", then, there is not validity to these claims. Blame not the slaves. Blame the government. Whine to them.


2)The problem with saying that there should be "reparations" for all Americans, is the fact that slavery and its degree of brutality going across legality, education, politics, civic duties and economics did not happen to "all Americans". Some Americans made money off of slavery. Other Americans benefitted from slavery, Jim Crow and segregation by virtue of the color of their skin. Because of the color of their skin, they did not have to undergo the social restrictions, violence, ridicule and forced apartheid as other Americans had to during slavery and afterwards in the Jim Crow era, Civil Rights era and the present. Because of this "apartheid" happening in the United States until forty-two years ago, economic disadvantages have resulted as well as continued anger, violence and derision of the character of other Americans continue to happen.

3)Having no pity for Black people, means something different here. It means a lack of feeling and empathy for what they've experienced, their history and their heritage. That, in turn, relates to the comments about their race that continue to run rampant on this thread. Since Black people are an easy target for some who do not want to face the truth of their own bias, then it is easy to throw accusations of "victimhood", "laziness" and of course, my favorite, "getting a handout."

It is sad. But, yes, people do not have any empathy or pity for Black people. Some people have removed the veil to see all these comments as they are. Others, by virtue of their attitude, cannot and are blind to the derogatory comments that continue on with pomp and vigor.

This is not about victimhood. This is about what happens in real life. Some people, however, can't or will not admit this. They would rather shift the blame on a race of color instead of turning inward and focusing on their own propensity to carry these negative attitudes on.

Maybe for those who have experienced privilege by virtue of their birth and color of skin have to face their own consciences when dealing with the past.

And using Blacks who are conservative and are "assimilators" with the dominant culture cannot erase the fact that slavery happened and that something must be done to atone for what has occurred. It also doesn't erase the subtle and (not so subtle) racism that has occurred here when trying to prove dissenting views about the lawsuit.

You can also talk about how much I've mentioned the "corporation" in this thread. My opinion about an apology stays the same. It hasn't changed before I got to ATS. It will not change until I decide to do so. And as of now, I haven't changed my opinion about the idea of atonement.



[edit on 30-9-2006 by ceci2006]

I think this is ridiculous.
The people who will get this money were NEVER SLAVES themselves.
I would be okay with this if 100% of the MILLIONS of dollars went to something charitable. Like providing shelter, food and clothes for homeless and low-income black families and children, or building a library and buying textbooks for schools on reserves(Natives were treated just as horribly)

I think that these people are lazy and don't want to work for a living. Given our current justice system, it's easier to sue for big bucks than it is to earn it for 30 years.



edit to add, I have voted FlyersFan for the Way Above Top Secret award for the previous post that you made. I agree completely

[edit on 30/9/06 by ju stab urden]

posted by FlyersFan

I'm right there with you. Absolutely. And where do we get this money? CUT FOREIGN AID. Yep. Instead of sending billions upon billions overseas; spend it on Americans here. We have plenty of Americans, of ALL races, who need help. 6 billion to Africa for AIDS research? Forget it! 6 billion would go VERY far for the poor in the Appalachians or Baltimore. All those 'forgiven' debts by foreign countries? Forget it! Make then pay for the goods they have bought from us. That money pays American workers. [Edited by Don W]

OK, but slow down, please. Foreign aid? America is lower than #10 in % of GDP to foreign aid. I’m thinking most people believe there is some kind of perpetual Marshall Plan at work, but General Marshall died in 1959. And his plan died well before he did. Very few Americans know much about how our “foreign aid” works. Example suppose America feels impelled to give the people of Darfur 1,000 trucks to haul food. Congress appropriates $50 million. The same law includes two provisions: 1) the trucks must be bought in America, from Ford of GM, and 2) at least half the trucks must be shipped in American bottoms - American owned ships. The Darfur’s could have taken the $50 million, for $25,000 each Fiat of Italy would have delivered them 2,000 trucks. But hey, this is foreign aid American style! Almost all US foreign aid is spent in the US. We almost never send money.

Other foreign aid is based in large part on our own humanitarian impulses. We want to send food to Darfur? So we, the taxpayers, pay premium prices to ADM - Archer Daniels Midland - or to Cargill, for bags of wheat or corn, and etc. Again, we call that ‘foreign aid.’ But for the same amount of tax money we could have bought 2X as much food from Argentina or Australia. But that’s foreign aid, American style.

So, who benefits most from American foreign aid?

If we have tried everything then why isn't it working? There is one more thing that needs to be discussed and BH brought it up. SELF RESPONSIBILITY.

Blaming the victims is old style. It makes some folks feel good. It avoids facing the hard and difficult task how to put into action what we already know needs to be done. Do we believe in (free) day care for single working moms? Yes or no. if we do, then it is only lack of will that prevents that from happening. If no, then your vision of America is different from mine.

It was reported on CBS yesterday that as of now, we are spending $2 billion a week in Iraq. No debate. No explanations. No hearings. No arguments. No questions. We just go ahead and pay. And pay. And pay. But you ask for a school lunch program? And you get every kind of reason why we can't give our children a good, hot breakfast.

We make choices.

Look at Dr. Condi Rice. Love her or hate her; she came from humble beginnings and when her friend was murdered in the church bombing in Birmingham she decided she was going to work 'twice as hard' so that she could get ahead.

And she is to be saluted for her personal achievements. Women have to be 2X as good as men to get the same outcome. Black women 4X. She does acknowledge that Affirmative Action put her where she is today. As has Colin Powell. And Etc. But let’s quit pretending any young black girl can become Secretary of State. If she just wills it. Sec Rice is the exception that proves the rule.


[edit on 9/30/2006 by donwhite]

Great posts!
You made some great points and really hit the nail on the head.
Most black men today don't want to rise above, educate and be successful for fear of being labeled an Uncle Tom by their homies...kissing up to the white man....when in reality they are doing nothing more than bettering themselves and living a decent good life.

It's a shame this rap/gangsta music became so big and was pushed by the greedy, bastards that run the music industry. It's poisoned the minds of our country's youth, both black and white. It send out a completely negative message. A good many of the black rappers and pro-athletes are nothing more than criminal talents (many with police records) who still retain their ghetto/thug mentality and glamourize it to the masses of fans. We make heroes out of these asswipes.........so foolish. In reality, the world should turn it's back on this trash and not allow it to influence.

Originally posted by stumason
Something me and my mate were discussing last night over a beer....

Not so long ago, we didn't have a bad anti-social problem in the UK. We had a good mix of people from all races that generally got on.People of all races went to the same schools, had good opportunities and generally everyone had an equal shot at success. There were problems, but nothing like we have today and certainly not anything to do with race. The Welsh were as poor as the northerners etc etc...

Lately, predominately among the young black and asian populations, we now have a vicous "Gangsta" culture. We have soaring gun crime, invariably black on black.

Only yesterday in London, two 15yr old boys, both black, were shot in a MacDonalds by two black youths. A black girl was shot by black gunmen in the North of england. Two weeks ago, a black boy was shot dead by black gunmen.

A month ago, a young white father was attacked by black youths outside his house and shot in the chest. He died, leaving a 2 year old son and a young widow.

I asked my mate, why? What is it about society that makes people do this. We couldn;t see why, as we did well ourselves. We have black friends that have done well. All in the same area, we can think of people of all colours who have done well. The ones that are causing the problems have some things in common..

They are nearly always Black or Asian (muslim) in origin.

They fell aggreived for some percieved injustice that, quite frankly, is not there. I can cite an example of a successful "ethnic" person for every delinquent you can present me.

And it's all come about with the importation of this "Gangsta" culture from the USA, where it's cool to not work, it's cool to be violent, it's cool to treat women like animals and it's cool to commit crime, all while getting a handout from the state as they are too lazy to sort themselves out.

From our point of view here in the UK, one can only guess at what it is like in the USA. From what I understand of the little gits on the street, they see the movies and listen to the songs coming from the states, which quite frankly only serve to glamourise the "Gangsta" culture, making kids all want to be like them.

They even alter the way they talk so they can sound, it's hard to describe, but for want of a better word, like a nasally-congested retard. Things like "Yo, dats sick blood, innit. Me got dat fat album by Yo Pimpy, sick..." all while walking down the street like they just stood on a landmine or are auditioning for a part in Planet of the Apes.

All this behaviour does is negatively reinforce the stereotype, as behaving like a congested, violent moron is hardly like to get you a good job.

It appears to be completeley voluntary too. No one is forcing them not to go to school. No one is forcing them to shoot each other. No one is forcing them to dress and behave like a "gangsta".

It's all them. But, you ask them why they have no job and they'll be the first to blame the White man, or the "System" or any other peic

First we heard this

Originally posted by ceci2006
And even though the Union army practiced conscription, I would be hard pressed to say that some of these "past relatives" had a choice in the matter whether they were going to serve or not. So, there's no law suit here.

Then we got the flip flop with this -

Originally posted by ceci2006
By virtue of the right of past relatives to "volunteer" to fight for the Union army, removes all claims for "getting reparations"

But then we are back to this again –

Originally posted by ceci2006
Unless they were forced into the Union side by "conscription", then, there is not validity to these claims.

So .. descendents of those that volunteered to fight to end slavery don’t deserve anything because their ancestors volunteered; and the ancestors of those that were conscripted don’t deserve anything because they were forced to fight. So either way they get screwed.

BTW - Don’t put past relatives in quotes. They are ancestors. Your attempt at minimizing their relation to us has been noted. They are our ancestors just as much as your ‘past relatives’ are your ancestors.

Perhaps we should all start calling the long dead slaves .. ‘past relatives’ instead of ancestors.

Some Americans made money off of slavery. Other Americans benefitted from slavery,

And the few that did are dead and have been dead for well over a hundred years.

Black people are an easy target for some who do not want to face the truth of their own bias,

White people are an easy target for some who do not want to face the truth of their own bias as well.

slavery happened and that something must be done to atone for what has occurred.

Atone? What happened to (paraphrased) … I don’t want money, I just want an apology???

No one has labled anyone one an "Uncle Tom" around here. And this does not have anything to do with Blacks not wanting to achieve and have a good life for themselves.

It is about righting a wrong historically that involved racism, violence, human trafficking and the government.

Blacks happen to be one of the recipients of these horrible measures and today recieve the same lack of respect due to misunderstanding why reparations and this lawsuit is needed.

You can praise others all you want. The problem and the racism attached to putting down those who ask for an official action to show apology still happens relentlessly on this thread.

[edit on 30-9-2006 by ceci2006]

People seem to lump all Black people together just because of what I've said. I only want an apology and atonement for what has been done in the past. It hasn't changed.

I've discussed reparations on many fronts because I believe that the issue should be entertained. But that's my opinon, but not the opinion of others from my race. We all have different opinions about reparations.

I bet, though, if Dr. Rice supported reparations tomorrow, all of these so-called "supporters" would say that she is lazy, unproductive, uneducated and "asking for a handout".

The racism doesn't change because of the figurehead who supports it.

Originally posted by donwhite
foreign aid? America is less than #10 in % of GDP to foreign aid.

Hey .. every penny counts. We have plenty who need aid here. Spend it here.
And I don't just mean foreign aid. I mean all sorts of unnecessary foreign spending. Propping up governments; paying off governments; forgiving debts to governments that buy our goods. ALL of it. Knock it off. Spend it her on ALL Americans in need.

Blaming the victims is old style.

I'm not blaming REAL victims of difficult situations. But I do blame those that won't make an effort when there are opportunities that can be found or that can be made. The ugly truth is that it does happen. Not everyone down and out is lazy. But in reality SOME are. It may not be PC to say it. But it's true. Welfare Queens come in all shapes, sizes, and colors. There definately are some people out there that want to suck off the government (our tax money).

It was reported on CBS yesterday that as of now, we are spending $2 billion a week in Iraq.

A seriously mismanaged and bungled operation. 2 billion a week that should be spent shoring up security at home .. and that shoring up of security would create jobs and help reduce unemployment and the welfare roll.

Originally posted by ceci2006
3)Having no pity for Black people, means something different here. It means a lack of feeling and empathy for what they've experienced, their history and their heritage.

It may mean that to you, but it doesn't mean that to me. I decide what I mean when I say I have no pity for black people.

PITY implies tender or sometimes slightly contemptuous sorrow for one in misery or distress.

And I have been very clear when explaining what I mean. I have plenty of empathy, condolence, sympathy and compassion for people who experienced slavery and who experience racism, regardless of their color. That's why I don't pick a group of people (black people) and heap pity on them. I would be embarrassed to be in a group asking for pity simply because of skin color.

I don't feel any contempt for people who have suffered slavery or racism. And I hold them as able to run their lives.

Originally posted by donwhite
Blaming the victims is old style. It makes some folks feel good.

donwhite - There is a subtle but very important difference between taking responsibility and being blamed. No one here is suggesting that black people are to blame for their situation. Here's what I said:

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
In my opinion, the best thing black people could do is to take responsibility for their current experiences (not fault or blame, just the ability to respond) and do everything possible to effect change in the environment.

Not fault or blame. So please understand that I'm not blaming slaves or racism victims for their predicament and please don't suggest that I'm doing it because it makes ME feel better. I'm asking them to work with what they've got, as every other person in these United States does.

responsibility
1 : the quality or state of being responsible : as a : moral, legal, or mental accountability

blame
1 : to find fault with

fault
2 a : WEAKNESS, FAILING; especially : a moral weakness

m/w Source

Edit:

Originally posted by loam
Pardon for the brief interruption, but I just saw the tags for this thread...
No wonder race relation issues continue in this country.

I agree with Loam here. If we (anti-reparation people) want to be taken seriously and respected for our views, it doesn't help the cause to resort to personal attacks, which some of the tags obviously are.

[edit on 30-9-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]

posted by mirror2U

You made some points and hit the nail on the head . . black men today don't want to rise above, educate and be successful for fear of being labeled an Uncle Tom . . kissing up to the white man . . “ [Edited by Don W]

This is truly tragic. I am listening right now to a tv program part of a series called “Western Traditions” by Prof. Eugen Weber of UCLA,, a 1989 PBS 52 part series. It’s either that or canned laughs comedies, stupid contests, or the endless violence, sex and vulgarity. We are told by our Supreme Court this is “free speech” and we cannot do a durn thing about it. People can bellow out the “F” word just outside a church or synagogue or mosque with impunity. First amendment.

I’m a 27 years member of the ACLU, but I also know there are times when you should show civil restraint. I love the Constitution, but I’m sure, not any more than any of you. Being an ACLU type does not make be better than non-types, it just means I sent them $25 a year. We need to do something so we can do more towards promoting civility and responsibility and to honor those who do the hard jobs day in and day out. Those on whose shoulders our world is built.


[edit on 9/30/2006 by donwhite]

Originally posted by ceci2006
I only want an apology and atonement for what has been done in the past.

From Page 8

Originally posted by ceci2006
loam, I've written before on this board that I would like "restitution" made to slaves through the form of a very distinct and meaningful apology. It's the time for atonement and not for money.

No money? None?

No one alive today was around in 1863. Nor our parents. Nor our grandparents.
Probably not even our great grandparents. No one in my family owned slaves. My husbands family wasn't even here then. We shouldn't apologize for something we didn't do.

Are we sorry it happened? Yes. Is it our fault? No. Is it the fault of anyone alive today? No.

Since you claim you don't want money; and it has been at least 4 generations since anyone owned black slaves in this country; then the case is closed. To hand out money would be punishing the innocent and to have anyone apologize for something they didn't do would be ridiculous.

Originally posted by ceci2006
I bet, though, if Dr. Rice supported reparations tomorrow, all of these so-called "supporters" would say that she is lazy, unproductive, uneducated and "asking for a handout".

No. I'd say that she was trying to buy the black vote. And that would be exactly what she would be doing.

Originally quoted by Benevolent Heretic

It may mean that to you, but it doesn't mean that to me. I decide what I mean when I say I have no pity for black people.

BH has spoken. I bow and say, "Yes, Ma'am, I'm sure you don't." But, by all due respect, you do not speak for the rest of the white people on this board. And you, only speak for yourself, when it comes to the anti-reparations movement.

You also speak for yourself when deriving what particular meaning is supposed to be "conveyed" by the notion of "pity" and "responsibility". Now others can adopt that particular meaning. But, for some of us, we can see that there has not been any empathy expressed toward Blacks in this issue. We see through the cock and bull that is used to hide this fact.

You may see the sunny side up on their character. That ought not to be dismissed. But, others do not share the same benevolence about those who speak against reparations have said about Blacks. In my own opinion, they have been down right racist in their description of African-Americans with no sense of apology.

And if they don't even apologize for what they've said about Black people, what do you think might be construed by their invidual dissent against the notion of reparations?

All I see you doing is espousing for their behavior no matter how much you try to make it nice with notions of "not expressing pity".

You don't express pity. Fine. But your word does not give blanket immunity to everyone. Face it. There are people here in this thread who do not give a damn about Black people. They say it freely and don't care who they hurt. And they refuse to take into account of the impact that slavery has on history especially when it pertains to Black and American history.

They just use any little excuse to get them off the burner so they can feel quietly content with what they said, even though it was very disparaging and caustic in nature. So, they are still not understanding the problem in other's eyes and very quick to complain about another race.

I'd say they were doing what they accuse others of doing profusely.

How could people who experience racism work with what they've got when there are forces out of their control barring them from social mobility?

Just stop with the "pull yourself by your bootstraps" bull. That also has nothing to do with the issue of reparations.

[edit on 30-9-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
I only want an apology and atonement for what has been done in the past. It hasn't changed.

Who specifically do you want an apology from? If Bush had a press conference and sincerely apologized for the government's endorsement of slavery, would the issue be resolved as far as you're concerned?

I know you don't think that's going to happen, but IF it did... I'd like to know in concrete terms what you want in terms of an apology. And please don't just say it's not going to happen. I want to know what you want. Specifically. And what does 'atonement' mean to you?

Originally posted by ceci2006
It is about righting a wrong historically that involved racism, violence, human trafficking and the government.

And what would that look like? How does the 'wrong' of slavery get 'righted'? I'm serious. What specifically would make it right for you?

Originally posted by mirror2U
Most black men today don't want to rise above, educate and be successful for fear of being labeled an Uncle Tom by their homies...

I don't believe this at all. People of all races want to be successful and I'd wager that black people would trade the 'admiration' of these 'homies' in a second if they felt they had a real opportunity to make themselves successful. Too many feel trapped so don't even try. That's the tragedy...

A good many of the black rappers and pro-athletes are nothing more than criminal talents (many with police records) who still retain their ghetto/thug mentality and glamourize it to the masses of fans. We make heroes out of these asswipes.........so foolish. In reality, the world should turn it's back on this trash and not allow it to influence.

I agree with you here with the exception of labeling it a 'black' thing. Plenty of white rappers and athletes (and other celebrities) are 'heroes' in the eyes of Americans and are nothing but 'trash' in reality. It's not about black or ghetto.

Originally posted by ceci2006
There are people here in this thread who do not give a damn about Black people. They say it freely and don't care who they hurt. And they refuse to take into account of the impact that slavery has on history especially when it pertains to Black and American history.

What I don't understand, then, is why you are spending so much time attacking those who do give a damn?

Incidentally, on the "pity" question, I understand what you are saying, BH. But in the same regard, that belief would not prevent me from nonetheless expressing specific empathy for any given class of individual suffering from injustice. Doing so doesn't negate the corresponding empathy I might have for the plight of other groups.

[edit on 30-9-2006 by loam]