Slave Descendants Try to Revive Lawsuit

Originally posted by ceci2006
But, by all due respect, you do not speak for the rest of the white people on this board.

And where did I claim to speak for others? "I" means I'm speaking for myself only. I didn't say we, did I? I didn't claim to give immunity to anyone, did I?

Originally posted by ceci2006
There are people here in this thread who do not give a damn about Black people.

You may be right. There is nothing that says they must. Where's the law that dictates people's feelings? There are also black people who don't give a damn about white people. Where's your indignation at them?

And they refuse to take into account of the impact that slavery has on history especially when it pertains to Black and American history.

If that's true (and I'm not as convinced of it is as you seem to be) they have every right to do and feel as they wish. Why must they respect and hold in esteem the history of black Americans if they don't want to?


[edit on 30-9-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by ceci2006
We see through the cock and bull that is used to hide this fact.

Who's "we"? Who are you speaking for?

All I see you doing is espousing for their behavior

Where do you see this???

Just stop with the "pull yourself by your bootstraps" bull. That also has nothing to do with the issue of reparations.

No, I won't stop. I wouldn't categorize it as "pull yourself by your bootstraps", but I believe in what I say and I won't stop saying it simply because you tell me to.

And using Blacks who are conservative and are "assimilators" with the dominant culture

Or this

No one has labled anyone one an "Uncle Tom" around here

Assimilator is probably not the "Borg."

Now that is a fascinating analogy.

Quoting several prominent blacks that happen to speak out against reparations and now they are labeled "Assimilators."

How racist is that? Does this mean that their choice of conservatism removes them from the black race?

Being Prominent Educators and Noteworthy Authors, means they no longer belong to your race? Who else gets kicked out?

What other wrongs can a black person do that will cause you to "Kick" them out and no longer hold their opinions as valid opinions?


So let me get this straight....

Not only are the whites on here that are against reparations wrong, the blacks that are against reparations are as well. Do they not stand the same chance of being related to a former slave? Of course they do.

So, end result. The argument is NOT about race, NOT about slavery; as those that are black and possible ancestors of slaves are not opinion valued.

So what is this all about? Ceci winning no matter what. No matter how foolish the argument may be.

So I am wrong because I am white. My sources are wrong because they are black. Now that is true intellectual debating (Sarcasm Intended)

Semper

Yep, the effects of Slavery are rampant...

Well everywhere except here..

Blacks Living in Queens Make More than Whites

OOPPPS

Semper

Originally posted by ceci2006
There are people here in this thread who do not give a damn about Black people.

yeah, riiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Who exactly? Those who say 'reparations' is wrong?

Because people want to keep the money they earn, and they expect others to earn their own money if they are physically able, that means they don't give a damn about black people?

Because people refuse to apologize for something that they, and their families, DIDN'T DO; that makes them not give a damn about black people? Here's a hint - you can't apologize for something that you didn't do.

You certainly are wallowing in self pity.

Originally posted by semperfortis
Not only are the whites on here that are against reparations wrong, the blacks that are against reparations are as well.

... and don't forget ... those who have ancestors who fought and died against slavery are not entitled to 'reparations' because ...

1 - they volunteered and therefore knew they could die . and/or
2 - they were conscripted so they didn't go of their own free will so are entitled to nothing.

either way, they get nothing from the great-great-grandchildren of those they helped bring freedom to.


Oh and semper .. those blacks who are successful have been 'assimulated' ... they certainly aren't entitled to be called what they are - successful.

I hope that clears things up for you. Clear as mud???



[edit on 9/30/2006 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
There are also black people who don't give a damn about white people. Where's your indignation at them?

I think Jesse Jackson might owe white people reparations for his relatively recent (MUCH more recent than slavery) salad spitting days. Think about it. All those innocent white folks out there who ate salads that he had spit into... the exposure to germs ... and who knows how many other black food handlers were inspired to do the same because of him ... and now that white Americans know about it they won't be so quick to order salads when they know there are black people working in the restaurant. And think about all those farmers growing lettuce .. all that lost business because JJ would spit into the salads of white people.



Yep. I'm thinking JJ owes not only white america but ALL farmers some reparations as well. In fact .. since JJ is black, I think all black people owe reparations to all farmers. Isn't that the pro-reparation logic used on this thread? Hey .. one guy did something evil so lets' make everyone that has the same color skin pay for it.

(Not to mention the fact that Jesse's evil doings were very recent. Those few slaveholders evil doings were over a hundred and fifty years ago. )



[edit on 9/30/2006 by FlyersFan]

Thought I would post some more from the "Assimilated" side of the coin.

Officials gather to warn against reparations scam

By HEATHER GREENFIELD
Associated Press

A growing number of blacks are falling prey to a tax scam tied to the campaign for reparations for slavery. Federal officials gathered at the U.S. Capitol yesterday to warn that the fraud is being heavily circulated through e-mail offers.
www.mddailyrecord.com...

But in fact, we are already paying reparations in a way. Affirmative action programs have been in place for over 30 years. They are very expensive. Federal, state and local governments spend money administering and enforcing them. Businesses spend more to make sure they are following the rules and defending themselves from administrative and legal action when someone thinks they are not. We also pay costs from increased incompetence and lower morale in the workplace.

Estimates of these costs vary. Some reach as high as hundreds of billions of dollars. But even if we accept lower estimates and remember that women and other minorities benefit from affirnative action policies, it it still clear that payments of tens of billions of dollars annually have been made to black Americans for decades. The fact that these payments do not seem to be doing much, if any, good, does not alter the fact that they are being made.
www.ashbrook.org...

Against this fractured background, we can see in the movement for reparations more of a political than a financial cause. It is an effort to reinvigorate the old struggle for civil rights by appealing to an issue on which it is possible once again to assert a profound moral unity. But this campaign to relive the present through the past will surely fail. We do not face slavery or segregation. There is no support anywhere in this nation for a return to either practice. The effort to place reparations front and center ignores that time has shifted the locus of our current concerns to a new set of issues that will not be resolved by reliving the horrors of an early generation in some collective or official capacity. We have to live life going forward. We cannot make collective amends for all the wrong in the past. But we can create new and unnecessary hurts by trying to remedy past wrongs. A divisive campaign for reparations will undercut the efforts that we all want to make a stronger, more vital, more productive and more caring nation.
~~~~~~~~~~
How many other nations can claim that members of a despised minority of one generation can see their great-grandchildren rise to join its social elites?
~~~~~~~~~~
But unless someone comes up with a convincing explanation of why all the positives since 1954 should be disregarded, the claims for reparations will stall on the obvious ground that many political steps have already been taken in that direction. It would be a tragedy of national proportions if claims for reparations to all or some blacks were to interfere with other programs that tend in the same direction but lack such a divisive social quality. There is too much water over the dam for this reparation claim to have any traction, even in a Democratic administration.
~~~~~~~~~~
The numbers generated by faulty calculations are orders of magnitude too high. Think of the matter this way: $100 invested in 1865 at 2% interest compounded annually equals $1600 140 years later. But if one allows a bit for inflation and does the calculations at 5%, then we are at $92,500. Those numbers increase exponentially to $11,589 for profits invested in 1765 at 2%, and to $12,173,957 for that same $100 invested at 5% interest. These calculations would suggest that huge fractions of the net worth of the targeted firms, if not their entire value, is attributable to the slave trade, until it is remembered that the same dubious calculations could be used to attribute the full net worth of the firm to virtually all of its other activities as well. None of these calculations are accurate because they all assume that all earnings were retained and invested, which does not happen anywhere.

Richard A. Epstein, The Case Against Black Reparations, 24 Boston University Law Review 1177-1192 (December, 2004)(68 Footnotes Omitted)



academic.udayton.edu...

Very interesting reading there. Especially in regards to specific laws pertaining to the subject.

At this point in history, the problem facing black Americans has nothing to do with the legacy of slavery and, as a result, cannot be ameliorated by "reparations."
~~~~~~~~~~
Professor Thomas Sowell calls an apology for slavery "mindless mush." He writes: "First of all, slavery is not something like stepping on someone's toe accidentally, where you can say excuse me." If the people who actually enslaved their fellow human beings were alive today, hanging would be too good for them. If an apology would make no sense coming from those who were personally guilty, what sense does it make for someone else to apologize ... today? A national apology," writes Sowell, "also betrays a gross ignorance of history. Slavery existed all over the planet, among people of every color, religion and nationality. Why then a national apology for a worldwide evil? Is a national apology for murder next?"
~~~~~~~~~~
Underlying many race-based programs in recent years has been the notion that all living white Americans are somehow beneficiaries of centuries of discrimination against blacks. Conversely, we are led to believe, all contemporary blacks are its continuing victims.
~~~~~~~~~~
What many black activists want, of course, is not an official apology for slavery but the payment of massive reparations to today's black community.
~~~~~~~~~~
***** Many black voices have risen in opposition to the very idea of reparations for slavery. Walter Williams, chairman of the Department of Economics at George Mason University, describes the call for reparations "just another scam" and argues that at this point in history, "slave owners cannot be punished and slaves cannot he rewarded. Black people in our country have gone further than any other race of people. You cannot portray blacks as victims. It's an insult to their progress and success. Most of [today's] problems have nothing to do with race; they're social and economic." *****
~~~~~~~
The fact is that the problem facing black Americans has nothing to do with a legacy of slavery and, as a result, can hardly be ameliorated by "reparations." The problem is that many black leaders and groups have a vested interest in proclaiming that things are bad and getting worse. Yet, while black leaders persist in this direction, the facts vitiate their claims.
~~~~~~~~~~
nt.
The real problems, which do exist, relate in large measure to the black underclass in the nation's inner cities who suffer not from "white racism" or the "legacy of slavery" but from an internal breakdown of the family structure. In the 1960s, the overall family structure of black Americans began to crumble.
In 1950, some 78 percent of black households featured a married couple, comparing loosely with 88 percent of white households. The proportion of black children born in female-headed households was 23 percent in 1960 and 62 percent by the end of the 1980s. In 1988, some 56 percent of single-parent black households with children were living in poverty, compared with 12.5 percent of two-parent families with children.
www.worldandi.com...

Just some light reading for those interested.

[color=#172fe1]WARNING!!!!
Some Articles above have been written by "ASSIMILATORS" [color=#172fe1]WARNING!!!!

Semper

FF

I am finding it difficult to find any article written by [color=#f9071e]Any Successful/Assimilated person in FAVOR of reparations.


Semper

rmc.library.cornell.edu..." border=0>

"Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow -- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth. "

--Abraham Lincoln The Gettysburg Address
Gettysburg, Pennsylvania
November 19, 1863

Something kept bugging me about the instistance there should be an "apology" and "attonenment" for slavery.

Sometimes you miss the obvious.

What greater payment made than the blood of those who fought to end slavery? ...or a President with the fortitude to not only express those words above, but to have actually backed them up?

Ceci, even if you support these lawsuits (which have nothing to do with "reparations"), I don't see how they would rise to the level of an "apology" or "attonement" beyond that of the civil war.

Care to explain that one to me?

[edit on 30-9-2006 by loam]

Ceci, you are clearly calling everyone who dont agree with this case a racist.. That is why i'm saying that you are useing racist on this case as a lame excuse... People have their own reasons and racist is not always the case... Everytime we talk about a topic you obviously misread most of the post and try to start new topic... Your judgement in this case is clearly clouded with everyone being racist... If you take your time and reread what you been posting through out this thread you will see what i am talking about... Africans was White America way of life.. when ever you think about black slavery the always think about black people being beating and mistreated by their master, and i can assure you that NOT Every slaves was mistreated by their master... I wont waste anymore of my time posting in here...

[edit on 30-9-2006 by IspyU]

posted by IspyU

Ceci, you call everyone who don’t agree a racist. That is why I’m saying you are using racist as excuse. People have their own reasons and racist is not always the case. If you take time and reread what you been posting this thread you will see what I am talking about. When ever you think about slavery always think about black people being beating and mistreated . . I can assure you that NOT every slave was mistreated. I wont waste any more of my time posting here. [Edited by Don W]

Don’t go away mad, I/S/U. You said something I am curious about. You said “ . . NOT every slave was mistreated.” I believe around the end of 1860 the US Census counted 3.9 million slaves in the US. That number was not broken down by state, but I’m fairly sure 90% were in the 11 states that were to make up the Confederacy. VA, NC, SC, GA, FL, TN, AL, MS, LA, TX and AR. The Stars and Bars have 13 stars, but 2 were in anticipation that MO and KY would join, which they did not.

If the average slave lived 50 years, it is hard to say that some of them were never physically abused during their lifetime. Even if that was true, which it may well have been, every single sunrise would bring another 24 hours of psychological abuse. Knowing you have no legal rights. None. That your master can do pretty much what he wants. If you are female, he may decide to have sex with you today. If you are male, he may decide to rent you out to another person who may not be so benign.

If you have children, you can’t even go there when you speak of abuse. Mothers and fathers who would give their life for a child, but at the same time, must stay alive to protect the child. If that won’t make you crazy, tell me what will. In the southern states, it was a crime to teach a slave to read and write. Except on Sunday, it was a crime for slaves to congregate off their owner’s property. And etc.

Why do you think all slaves were not abused?


[edit on 9/30/2006 by donwhite]

Gee. All this attention before I could write a good answer to BH.

Well, perhaps I shouldn't write about what I would like for an apology since all of you (except donwhite) seem to have the answers and trying to put them into my mouth. Is it fun speaking for me? I get amused at the pogrom that has happened because I expressed my view.

How does it feel being part of a cyberspace lynch mob? Having fun waving your pitchforks as you stomp through the main street of the village?

[edit on 30-9-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
...pogrom...

Talk about the height of arrogance AND ignorance. Someone disagrees with your position and you make it the equivalent of a "pogrom"?

That is an insult to every person who ever suffered at the hands of a real pogrom.

Originally posted by ceci2006
How does it feel being part of a cyberspace lynch mob? Having fun waving your pitchforks as you stomp through the main street of the village?

I am sick of your back-handed accusations that to disagree with you means you are a racist.

I am no such thing and have no need to defend myself on the matter.

If you perceive opposition, it isn't because of your race, ceci, it's because of your logic.

Really? (Folks, he continues to wag his finger and shout at the top of his voice.)

I stand corrected. Obviously, because I express my opinion here it's because of logic(disguised as a tandrum about my behavior). Anything to legitimize your own intellectual dishonesty in this topic. But still, I don't know why you feel you have to take the patriarchal role and try to assert your dominance over the content when the "discussion" is supposed to be an egaltarian convention.

Or is it the dominant culture and those who align with them are the ones who are given the power and immunity to speak?

Face it, loam. You've harrassed me on two threads with this crap. Leave me alone to express my opinion.

Or else, call a mod to decide this mess once and for all. Do it so we can return to the topic at hand.

The opposition is a figment of your imagination, not mine.

We are all just discussing a topic--at least that's what I thought until you came on to browbeat me.

[edit on 30-9-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
...and shout at the top of his voice...

Actually, I am quite calm.

Originally posted by ceci2006
But still, I don't know why you feel you have to take the patriarchal role and try to assert your dominance over the content when the "discussion" is supposed to be an egaltarian convention.

Then I suggest you go back and re-read this thread- at least with regard to *my* posts. My initial post was precisely about the issue of the subject lawsuits and my rationale for opposing them.

Thereafter, it is *you* who in one form or another attempted to equate ANY opposition to the subject lawsuits as evidence of some sort of suppressed, unrecognized racism. From there, you expanded this thread into the issue of "reparations" and comfortably converted opposition to the concept into even more evidence of racism.

Did you even read why I thought these lawsuits were a bad idea???? Aside from being unjust to almost EVERYONE involved, it would also specifically hurt blacks!!!

Get it?

Why haven't you debated that?

Originally posted by ceci2006
Or is it the dominant culture and those who align with them are the ones who are given the power and immunity to speak?

I defend the right for everyone to speak.

Another baseless, indirect accusation.

Originally posted by ceci2006
Face it, loam. You've harrassed me on two threads with this crap. Leave me alone to express my opinion.

I have done nothing to interfere with your ability to express your opinion. I just haven't agreed with all of your opinions. There is a material difference.

Originally posted by ceci2006
Or else, call a mod to decide this mess once and for all. Do it so we can return to the topic at hand.

I have no reason to call a mod. Do you?

Originally posted by ceci2006
The opposition is a figment of your imagination, not mine.

I'm confused. Did you just not assert you were the victim of a "pogrom" and cyber-lynching...pitch forks and all?

Originally posted by ceci2006
We are all just discussing a topic--at least that's what I thought until you came on to browbeat me.

I wish you would spend time actually debating my positions, rather than melodramatically going on about how you are a victim.

I've got to hand it to you, though. At least, there, you are consistent.

I'm real sorry you think I'm browbeating you. I'm not...nor do I intend to.

But you seem way too comfortable painting with a broad brush, and for someone who is as intelligent as you, you should know better.

Loam,

You get my first WATS tomorrow...

What is the number to call the mod that Ceci has brought up here and on her other posts so many times before?

It's not 911, that call gets me. So I am wondering, what number is it exactly?

Just a little levity so perhaps we can not be so intense.

It is patently obvious that anyone that does not agree with ceci, is a racist.
Sad really, it is apparent by the research that I have done and posted, that it is attitudes like this that are doing more damage to the causes of Blacks in the nation than anything else.

Her accusations that the Intellectual and successful Blacks I used in my research were "Assimilators", shows the utter disrespect she really has about truly helping Blacks in America, and reveals an innate psychological need to "be right" at all costs. Even at the expense of her race.

In this way alone, her validity as a poster on this subject is completely destroyed.

Those that took the time to read what I posted, will find these people educated, eloquent and outspoken in defense of the true wrongs being committed against their race. They have done the research needed to properly formulate an intellectual response to Lawsuits such as this and the issue of reparations. Their findings are not the result of their race, or their darkness of skin, rather it is a result of their dedication and education mixed with a caring attitude for those they represent.

They see the degradation of their race and the true historical perspective involved. Not some ridiculous talking point being thrown around for who knows what purpose.

I was delightfully entertained by their papers and the research that went into them, as well as their individual histories that you can find on their sites. They are truly dedicated to first, understanding the problem, and then pushing for some action to resolve the issues. They are not blinded by the unrequited cry's for something so undeserved by the present generation.

Please take the time to read the articles I have listed, I am sure you will find them educational.

Semper

Originally quoted by loam
Actually, I am quite calm.

Good for you.

Then I suggest you go back and re-read this thread- at least with regard to *my* posts. My initial post was precisely about the issue of the subject lawsuits and my rationale for opposing them.

Fine. Then there ought to be no reason to bring up my posting style or behavior.

Thereafter, it is *you* who in one form or another attempted to equate ANY opposition to the subject lawsuits as evidence of some sort of suppressed, unrecognized racism. From there, you expanded this thread into the issue of "reparations" and comfortably converted opposition to the concept into even more evidence of racism.

Because there is. And that goes beyond you.

Did you even read why I thought these lawsuits were a bad idea????

Sure I did.

Aside from being unjust to almost EVERYONE involved, it would also specifically hurt blacks!!!

Why would it be unjust to everyone? I thought the corporations were at fault here. And how would it hurt Blacks? Are you like Professor X? Can you tune into the brainwaves of every Black person in this country? Wow. If you can, you're indeed very special.

Get it?

Am I supposed to? Is that how I stop this "pogrom" from getting any worse?

Why haven't you debated that?

Perhaps, I don't think reparations (or an apology) is bad. Other than that, this is your issue, not mine.

I defend the right for everyone to speak.

Do you really? Or are you just paying lip service only to those who don't agree with you?

Another baseless, indirect accusation.

Whoopie.

I have done nothing to interfere with your ability to express your opinion. I just haven't agreed with all of your opinions. There is a material difference.

Do you think I truly care?

I have no reason to call a mod. Do you?

Hell. You're the one that's making a big deal about this. Not me.

I'm confused. Did you just not assert you were the victim of a "pogrom" and cyber-lynching...pitch forks and all?

What else are these personal attacks against me?

I wish you would spend time actually debating my positions, rather than melodramatically going on about how you are a victim.

Did I say I was a victim? Or were you saying that I was? Therein lies the rub.

I've got to hand it to you, though. At least, there, you are consistent.

No. You are consistent, along with your relentless personal attacks.

I'm real sorry you think I'm browbeating you. I'm not...nor do I intend to.

Well, you have. I think that goes beyond whether you didn't or did intend to.

But you seem way too comfortable painting with a broad brush, and for someone who is as intelligent as you, you should know better.

Let me get this straight. If I agree with you, then I'll get to be smart and intelligent again in your eyes?

Perish the thought!

Enjoy your WATS.


[edit on 1-10-2006 by ceci2006]

Does anyone on here even own a dictionary?

Is that how I stop this "pogrom" from getting any worse?

Pogrom (from Russian: погром; from "громить" IPA: [grʌˈmitʲ]- to wreak havoc, to demolish violently) is a form of riot directed against a particular group, whether ethnic, religious or other, and characterized by destruction of their homes, businesses and religious centers. Usually pogroms are accompanied with physical violence against the targeted people and even murder or massacre. The term has historically been used to denote extensive violence, either spontaneous or premeditated, against Jews, but has been applied to similar incidents against other, mostly minority, groups.
en.wikipedia.org...

Or does the use of "Big" words make the post look better?



I apparently have missed the violence perpetrated against this one poster, even though I have read every single post.
Also did not realize we had Jewish posters.

Semper

Originally posted by ceci2006
Let me get this straight. If I agree with you, then I'll get to be smart and intelligent again in your eyes?

What are you talking about? I think you ARE very intelligent. I just happen to think that on this issue you are wrong. (But I've said both MANY times on this thread.)

I'm wrong all the time in my life, but it doesn't make me question my intelligence...or yours.

You need to take a deep breath and actually re-read the words I've written in this thread.

I'm genuinely sorry for your pain (individual and collective)...

I'm committed to being vigilant against injustice...

I want YOU to live in a world where one is judged on the merits of deeds and not status...

But I will never agree with your repeated insulation that I am racist because I disagree with you on how to get there.

I wish you understood that as long as people subordinate their humanity to their race, there will never be an improvement in the situation. I am human, above all else. And I view the world from THAT perspective. The rights I seek for myself, I seek for ALL people.

I wish you understood that while suspicion of those who might symbolize your past or present oppressors is understandable, it is NOT excusable when without cause. Guilt by association or guilt without deed are the seeds of oppression itself. There is no way to parse that reality.

I wish you understood that the key to improving the Black American experience is through economic prosperity. Fight like hell for real policies that ensure a level playing field- not lawsuits that will line the pockets of a few lawyers and take from the innocent payment for the sins of others.

Snap out of it.

How much do we really disagree on?


[edit on 1-10-2006 by loam]