Slave Descendants Try to Revive Lawsuit

Facts are facts. History is history. If I was Black and my ansestors were slaves, I would have thought to myself..What if my ansestors wernt slaves? where would I be right now? Would I be alive? Yes its harsh, but true. People who want repreations for slavery dont realize they allready have it....Freedom.

reply to post by tac109


tac109 Facts are facts. History is history. If I was Black and my ancestors were slaves, I would have thought to myself..What if my ancestors went slaves? where would I be right now? Would I be alive? Yes its harsh, but true. People who want reparations for slavery don’t realize they already have it....Freedom.

Sort of like the Jews in Europe in the 1940s, slave and slave descendants were or are just plain LUCKY? A boat ride across the Atlantic chained to the rolling deck of a sailing ship, while admittedly uncomfortable and not up to cruise boat standards, is equal to wining the LOTTERY? Next it will be suggested the slaves or descendants of slaves actually OWE the white people or their descendants for the FAVOR they have done for or to them? Hmm? Blame the victim.


[edit on 10/12/2007 by donwhite]

reply to post by 27jd


27jd I struggle to live week to week the same as any other non-elite member of our society. I was given NO more opportunity than a black man, in fact less, and you failed to provide me with even one example of how I am a beneficiary of slavery.

Your complaints are very much reminiscent of historically similar complaints raised by the poor whites of the Old South after the Civil War. Jim Crow was offered as the solution then. But that is illegal now.

The unstoppable forces of globalization since the 1977 sea change decision by China to jump headlong into the manufacturing game. America has lost 30 million good paying blue collar (union) jobs. All too many were replaced by what we despairingly call “hamburger flipping” jobs. Even the minimum wage was held stagnant for 10 years. The backbone of the American middle class has been broken.

Workers are confined - in the main - to their country of birth while capital is fee to roam the globe seeking where it can reap the greatest return. We raise barriers to the former while we encourage the latter. It is very hard to predict where this will end.

27jd Anyway, I was at an orientation class for a job I worked at some years ago, and there were many different ethnic and age groups there, and the teacher began talking about discrimination laws. The teacher asked the class to point out who in the room had absolutely NO legal protection against discrimination . . the teacher looked at me and my friend, the only two young white males in the room and said it was us. If I were to apply for a job and a black employer told me he wouldn't hire me cuz I'm white, I'd have NO recourse whatsoever.

Sounds apocryphal to me. I get your point, but this story is TOO good for a skeptic like me to take at face value.

27jd Everybody else, black, brown, purple, female, the elderly, etc. were protected by law against being discriminated against. We have no college funds, no legal protection, no required number of white guys to work at a job, nada.

America is an AD HOC country. We don’t like general rules or laws. We only accept reluctantly rules or laws that purport to deal with a problem that has grown so large that we cannot continue to ignore it. Then we patch it over to get it off the front page, so to speak, and we hope then it will go away. What your recitation of perceived abuse or neglect ignores or overlooks is that it was WHITE MEN who were doing the discriminating.

27jd I cannot feel sorry for black people today, there is no reason. They have MORE opportunity in America today then I do.

I don’t think any black person wants any white person to feel sorry for them. I think what they do want is embodied in one word they use a lot to try to communicate with us, R E S P E C T.

[edit on 10/12/2007 by donwhite]

In the modern world, there are still slaves present.

It's time we tackled modern slavery, child labour and the sex trade, instead of fighting over the past. Surely, the best way forward is to help fight the struggle instead of fighting over the past and pointing the finger?

Yes, I'm not a descendant of a slave, but I am Irish and many of my family struggled during the Great Famine and my great grandmother was sent to the workhouse because she was too poor to look after herself after the famine. Conditions were brutal and worse than prision. Do I have a right to sue the British government or those who ran the workhouses? No, I don't.

Yes, what happened was wrong to our families, but as the old saying goes;

You cannot blame the son for the sins of his father

reply to post by infinite


infinite It's time we tackled modern slavery, child labour and the sex trade, instead of fighting over the past. Surely, the best way forward is to help fight the struggle instead of fighting over the past and pointing the finger?

Since we (or me) have recently learned about the central banks clearing house in Belgium, we - US - could stop most of the abuses you recited above. For various reasons - none I assign are honorable - we prefer not to use that point of constriction of international money transfers to enforce the United Nations Charter. I really don’t mean to be cynical, but I suspect TOO many people in high places around the world rely on that facility. People like our man in Uganda, the late Edi Amin. And etc. Will it ever happen that young people are protected from perverted rich old men? I don’t know. It is certainly not a new phenomenon. It’s been a violation of the laws of most nations for centuries. Yet the practice thrives. Italians favor Brazil. Germans and English favor Thailand. We know this but we seem helpless to slow or stop it. Hmm?

infinite I'm not a descendant of a slave, but I am Irish and many of my family struggled during the Great Famine and my great grandmother was sent to the workhouse because she was too poor to look after herself after the famine. Do I have a right to sue the British government or those who ran the workhouses? No, I don't. Yes, what happened was wrong to our families, but as the old saying goes; You cannot blame the son for the sins of his father. See My Note 1.

Ireland was subdued in 1653 under Oliver Cromwell’s forces. The English were especially harsh on the Irish. Religion played a role in this English attitude. That struggle - long delineated by religious identity but not on theological grounds - is presently about to end in the Six Counties or Ulster, if the current Agreement holds. (1653 date from Wikipedia). I believe that during the 19th century’s Irish potato famine, one-third of the Irish died, one-third migrated to America which left about one-third behind in Ireland. Certainly no time to be Irish.

I believe the issue of compensation for descendants of Africans in America is on equal footing to claims by the Irish vis a vis England. (The United Kingdom was created in 1707 by the Act of Union. Again, per Wikipedia. I don’t carry those dates in my head).

Reparations is a concept usually associated with the ending of a war, where the winner extracts wealth and materials from the vanquished. The most notable example followed the end of the First World War, called the Great War sometimes. Overly harsh treatment of Germany is frequently offered as the leading explanation for the rise to power of Adolph Hitler’s Nazi Party. Some historians call the “Second World War the last battle of the First Wold War.”

It should be obvious that neither the UK nor the US is about to pay reparations to anyone. Surely if there is a GOD in Heaven, the US would owe the surviving Iraqis 10s of billions.

But unfortunately for the Iraqis, like Humpty Dumpty, we cannot put back the delicate balance of power that had been so painfully arrived at in the Middle East before March 18, 2003. As much as we wish we could! The Middle East is doomed to repeat its recent history because we over here do not study history. We live in the here and now. To the 3830 KIA GIs, we can only say, “Oops, sorry about that.”

[edit on 10/12/2007 by donwhite]

My relatives never bought ,owned nor sold slaves,maybe a few indentured servants,so don't come looking to me for reimbursement,sue the Africans who sold them to slave traders

Originally posted by donwhite
Sounds apocryphal to me. I get your point, but this story is TOO good for a skeptic like me to take at face value.

No need to bold the word, I'm aware of it's meaning. If you don't believe me fine, that story is the complete truth. You have my word, if that means anything to you.

With some 70 percent of the nation's population now legally advantaged as "disadvantaged," eligible for federal contracts and affirmative action benefits, the federal planners have institutionalized racism, sexism, and groupthink on a grand scale. "White males are the only growth area for the modern victim movement," says John Leo, a contributing editor at U.S. News and World Report. "Everybody else is already covered."

*snip*

"If existing institutional grievance procedures do not adequately respond to white men who com plain about sexual harassment or racial discrimination, we must devise procedures that do," recommends Dziech. "We need to talk about how white men are viewed today and about how both men and women have been burdened by stereotypes."

*snip*

Opposing rollbacks in set-asides and group preferences, Jesse Jackson states: "We have died too young, bled too profusely, been to too many funerals of young mothers, to go back now." A white male veteran of the Vietnam War could say the same words about being excluded from consideration for a government forestry job. "Only unqualified applicants will be considered," stated a help-wanted ad from the U.S. Forest Service. Women filled 179 of the 184 job openings. Someone in central planning must have determined that there were too many white males in America's woods.

*snip*

"There is no gentle way of putting this, but 18- to 45-year-old white males are one ticked-off group," writes Bob Grossfield, head of the Arizona Democratic Leadership Council. "These men believe that every other segment of America has someone standing up for them. They believe, rightly or wrongly, that everyone else has a higher priority while they're left behind paying for it all."

www.cato.org...

Did you know that the federal government pays its managers “superbonuses” for hiring, training, and promoting nonwhites? According to a lawsuit filed against the Secretary of Energy by DOE employees, a DOE boss, Anibal Taboas, staffed the Argonne National Laboratory with minorities, while reassigning white males to dead end jobs where they could be terminated under reduction in force polices.

For this achievement, the lawsuit says Mr. Taboas received thousands of dollars in bonuses.

Note that no one in the government intervenes in behalf of white males who suffer discrimination, not President Bush, no congressional committee chairman, certainly not the Justice Department or the EEOC.

Today in the United States white people have no political representation. Whites have to struggle in the courts against government opposition to claim any resemblance to equal rights.

Explicit government policies have made whites second class citizens. Whites are a dispossessed majority in their own country.

www.vdare.com...

What your recitation of perceived abuse or neglect ignores or overlooks is that it was WHITE MEN who were doing the discriminating.

Key word: was. The abuse and neglect I "percieve" against me is because of the actions of men LONG before I was born. There's NO way to justify that. No way.

I don’t think any black person wants any white person to feel sorry for them. I think what they do want is embodied in one word they use a lot to try to communicate with us, R E S P E C T.

Maybe not, they do a good enough job feeling sorry for themselves. R E S P E C T is a two way street, if I'm not given it, I don't give it. And I consider it HUGELY disrespectful to blame me for the actions of others simply based on my skin color, that's AGAINST everything the civil rights movement was for, supposedly.

[edit on 12-10-2007 by 27jd]

Originally posted by Oldtimer2
My relatives never bought ,owned nor sold slaves,maybe a few indentured servants,so don't come looking to me for reimbursement,sue the Africans who sold them to slave traders

So who should be made to pay - all whites? What if your ancestors never owned slaves. What if you or your ancestors came here after slavery?

Then there's the issue of who should get paid - all blacks? But what if they or their ancestors came here after slavery was abolished?

Even if you just plain feel sorry for what happened to the slaves 200 years ago, this is a totally unworkable concept in reality. You cannot penalize people today for what their ancestors did when laws, thinking and morals were very different.

What's next, suing the italians for what the Romans did 2,000 years ago? Taken to its logical conclusion, where in the past would this stop? And looking forward, who could make a move to do anything today without worrying that someday people would decide THAT was bad and sue your decendents for reparations?

Utter nonsense ...




[edit on 10/12/2007 by centurion1211]

reply to post by 27jd


27jd quoted
"There is no gentle way of putting this, but 18- to 45-year-old white males are one ticked-off group," writes Bob Grossfield, head of the Arizona Democratic Leadership Council. "These men believe that every other segment of America has someone standing up for them. They believe, rightly or wrongly, that everyone else has a higher priority while they're left behind paying for it all." www.cato.org...

I have little to no regard for what passes as scholarship out of the Cato Institute which I rank merely a half rung above the American Enterprise Institute. Both are staffed by either apologists (kind) or propagandists (harsh) for Reagan and the 2 Bushes. Enough said.

27jd Did you know that the federal government pays its managers “super-bonuses” for hiring, training, and promoting nonwhites? According to a lawsuit filed against the Secretary of Energy by DOE employees, a DOE boss, Anibal Taboas, staffed the Argonne National Laboratory with minorities, while reassigning white males to dead end jobs where they could be terminated under reduction in force polices. For this achievement, the lawsuit says Mr. Taboas received thousands of dollars in bonuses.

Did you know anyone with a filing fee can file a lawsuit and with only the most minimal of limits, can say anything they want to in the suit? Hyperbole is the order of the day in sensational law suits. Outcomes count much more than in-going claims.

27jd Today in the United States white people have no political representation. Whites have to struggle in the courts against government opposition to claim any resemblance to equal rights.

Yup, that’s EXACTLY why all the state's Governors and all the Members of Congress are black, female or foreign born. Hah! Open your eyes. Look at the White House. What color do you see? Why do you think it's called the “WHITE” House? Yeah, I know, the butler is black. The cook is Filipino. And the nanny is Hispanic. Wow! Affirmative Action at work!

Watch any of the presidential debates. What do you see? 18 white men, 1 woman and 1 guy who could easily "pass" but who claims to be African American. Oh, Bill Richardson says he is Hispanic. You could not prove it by looking. Maybe he's the exception that proves the rule?

I don’t recognize www.vdare.com... If it is like Cato or AEI, then it is really a poor use of our limited time to dwell there very much.

[edit on 10/12/2007 by donwhite]

Originally posted by donwhite
Yup, that’s EXACTLY why all the state's Governors and all the Members of Congress are black, female or foreign born. Hah! Open your eyes. What color do you see in the White House. Why do you think it's named the “WHITE” House? Yeah, the butler is black. The cook is Filipino. And the nanny is Hispanic. Wow! Affirmative Action at work!

Kind of a broad generalization there, but you're right, that's why I stated a few posts ago, that white 'NON-ELITE' males have less opportunity than minorities or women. The average Joe white guy. Can you point out any significant amount of white members of Congress who were just average Joe's who ran and won? Either way, we can argue this point all day, and it really has no bearing on the subject other than pointing out that I do NOT benefit from the color of my skin. I'm not asking for reparations or anything of the sort. And you STILL haven't answered my more relevant question, HOW DID I BENEFIT PERSONALLY FROM SLAVERY?

[edit on 12-10-2007 by 27jd]

They have no standing. They have no direct injury. If they're going to claim some sort of "societal injury," then we're all injured.

reply to post by 27jd


27jd Kind of a broad generalization there, but you're right, that's why I stated a few posts ago, that white 'NON-ELITE' males have less opportunity than minorities or women. And you STILL haven't answered my more relevant question, HOW DID I BENEFIT PERSONALLY FROM SLAVERY?

“Non-elite” may be significant to whites, but to disadvantaged females, blacks and other citizens, it is more a phase of mockery than a phrase of artful language.

From the 1794 Whitney patent until 1865, cotton was the most valuable commodity in international trade and the first raw material of the industrial revolution. That was made possible by the free labor of 3 million black slaves in the cotton states. We are all beneficiaries of a wealthy past. Aside: It also made Charleston SC the richest city in America in 1861.

In America, during he 1930s, 1940s and 1950s, much of our highway iinfrastructure was built. America’s blacks worked for less than standard wages building a lot of those roads. That amounts to a subsidy to the rest of us who paid the bills.

Black schools were ALWAYS underfunded despite the hollow promise of Plessey v. Ferguson, 1896. This allows local school boards to have better white schools at the expense of black children inst4ead of the taxpayers.

Until 1954 and even afterwards, black health care was abysmal. A disgrace for a third wold country passed as normal in America. Saving much money to taxpayers.

Blacks perform many jobs today that whites do not want. Roofers, for one example. Sewer diggers for another. All of the jobs done at lower pay than if whites were doing the work. Blacks get less law enforcement than whites. OK, how many drive-by shootings are in gated communities? The only thing blacks get more of is cracked skulls at the hands of the police like Rodney King, or shot to death as the 92 year old woman resisted what she may have thought was a home invasion in Atlanta earlier this year. Prop 209 passed [ending affirmative action by public financed colleges] in CA, and the number of freshen in UCLA fell to 100 in 2007 our of 5,000.

Anytime anyone works for less than he deserves, someone is subsidized.

[edit on 10/12/2007 by donwhite]

Originally posted by donwhite
From the 1794 Whitney patent until 1865, cotton was the most valuable commodity in international trade and the first raw material of the industrial revolution. That was made possible by the free labor of 3 million black slaves in the cotton states. We are all beneficiaries of a wealthy past. Aside: It also made Charleston SC the richest city in America in 1865.

K, that did not benefit me in any way, shape, or form. I've never recieved anything from SC. I was born and raised in AZ. I am NOT a beneficiary, no more or less than a black person.

America’s blacks worked for less than standard wages building a lot of those roads. That amounts to a subsidy to the rest of us who paid the bills.

It wasn't just blacks at all. I can find NO evidence that the ONLY workers underpaid during the depression were blacks, nor that even the majority were. I'd love to see where you get that info. Now, most importantly, I wasn't alive then. Nor were the blacks that you would like to se paid today. They use the roads the same as I do. Sorry. No point.

Black schools were ALWAYS underfunded despite the hollow promise of Plessey v. Ferguson, 1896. This allows local school boards to have better white schools at the expense of black children inst4ead of the taxpayers.

Again, that had nothing to do with me. I live in a big city and went to a school with ALL races. I did not benefit from that either. No responsibility on my part. Next.

Until 1954 and even afterwards, black health care was abysmal. A disgrace for a third wold country passed as normal in America. Saving much money to taxpayers.

Didn't save me diddly squat. I was born in the late 70's and didn't start paying taxes til long after. There is no longer black or white health care, we are all equally screwed. Next.

Blacks perform many jobs today that whites do not want. Roofers, for one example.

Wow, I've heard that before. Oh yeah, to defend illegal immigration. I know plenty of white roofers, painters, etc. Strangely I have never seen a black person roofing. Not all whites refuse to get dirty, that is a GROSS generalization. As for jobs whites don't want? I see FAR more homeless white people than homeless blacks, here in Phoenix at least. I'm sure some would take any job they could get. Again, has NOTHING to do with me. Next.

Sewer diggers for another. All of the jobs done at lower pay than if whites were doing the work.

Nope, not here. Never seen a black person working the sewers here. Illegals get that priveledge. Most blacks work for collection agencies here, and make good money. Ever wonder why when a bill collector calls they're usually black? And yes, you can tell by voice. Next.

Blacks get less law enforcement than whites. OK, how many drive-by shootings are in gated communities? The only thing blacks get more of is cracked skulls at the hands of the police like Rodney King, or shot to death as the 92 year old woman resisted what she may have thought was a home invasion in Atlanta earlier this year. Prop 209 passed [ending affirmative action by public financed colleges] in CA, and the number of freshen in UCLA fell to 100 in 2007 our of 5,000.

Again, none of that has ANYTHING to do with me. I'm not a cop and have never cracked ANYBODY's skull, or shot ANY old ladies for that matter, black or white. How about the group of blacks that attacked Reginald Denny? Oh yeah, he deserves no empathy cuz he's the abuser. BS. Next.

Anytime anyone works for less than he deserves, someone is subsidized.

Who's being subsidized from me working for less than I deserve? There's LOTS of black people at my job, and we all make the same, so I must be getting shorted. I'd like to see about getting my reparations.



[edit on 12-10-2007 by 27jd]

reply to post by 27jd


"All mankind is of one author, and is one volume; when one man dies, one chapter is not torn out of the book, but translated into a better language; and every chapter must be so translated...As therefore the bell that rings to a sermon, calls not upon the preacher only, but upon the congregation to come: so this bell calls us all: but how much more me, who am brought so near the door by this sickness....No man is an island, entire of itself...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."
John Donne

[edit on 10/12/2007 by donwhite]

reply to post by donwhite


That quote is exclusive and appears to have more than a little religious overtone. That is not my belief system. And it is exclusive because MANKIND is not an island, we share earth with countless living creatures and should be afforded no more natural rights than the rest. So when you pick up a burger and bite into it, or even a salad, a living creature or organism died so you could benefit. It is the nature of our planet, and is neither right or wrong. It's nature, survival of the fittest by any means necessary, and someone or something must always lose so someone or something else can win. So, you have ALOT of work ahead of you donwhite. Good luck changing the laws of nature.

[edit on 12-10-2007 by 27jd]

posted by 27jd
reply to post by donwhite

 

That quote is exclusive and appears to have more than a little religious overtone.

I think John Donne was an Anglian priest. As to being “exclusive” in a smaller sense, I prefer to think of it as being “inclusive” in a larger sense.

And it is exclusive because MANKIND is not an island, we share earth with countless living creatures and should be afforded no more natural rights than the rest.

Is that related to Animism? Sorry, but I’ll always enjoy eating the fried back of a domestic rabbit but I do want it raised and killed humanely.

It's nature, survival of the fittest by any means necessary, and someone or something must always lose so someone or something else can win.

I dunno. We have found irrefutable evidence the Neanderthals cared for their injured. Broken femurs in adults were healed. You can’t feed yourself with a broken femur. Every great tragedy brings forth selfless people who will give up a life jacket on the Titanic or who direct people to escape routes in the WTC tragedy. Or people who die in efforts to save others.

The human race is filled with heroes and rascals. It is not a survival of the fittest world. Anymore.

Originally posted by donwhite
I think John Donne was an Anglian priest.

Ah, that explains why it looked to be religious in nature.

Is that related to Animism? Sorry, but I’ll always enjoy eating the fried back of a domestic rabbit but I do want it raised and killed humanely.

Um, well I guess you could say that. I feel that all life has to have a spark of some sort to kick it off, right? But that doesn't mean I'm a vegan or anything, I am an omnivore like nature intended.

I dunno. We have found irrefutable evidence the Neanderthals cared for their injured. Broken femurs in adults were healed. You can’t feed yourself with a broken femur. Every great tragedy brings forth selfless people who will give up a life jacket on the Titanic or who direct people to escape routes in the WTC tragedy. Or people who die in efforts to save others.

People still lived in groups back then, so yeah that's not hard to believe. But they also had rivals.

Divisions in British culture may be deeper than we thought. Scientists have discovered startling evidence that suggests different species of early humans may have fought to settle within our shores almost half a million years ago.
They have found that two different groups - one wielding hand-axes, the other using Stone Age Stanley knives to slash and kill - could have been rivals for control of ancient Britain.

'The evidence is only tantalising, but it is intriguing,' said palaeontologist Chris Stringer, of the Natural History Museum, London. 'Certainly it suggests Britain may well have been multicultural 400,000 years ago.'
observer.guardian.co.uk...

Mike Linksvayer directs us to a fascinating study of whether the development of what must have been a very primitive market economy among early humans may have contributed to the extinction of their Neanderthal rivals.

Economics-free trade may have contributed to the extinction of Neanderthals 30,000-40,000 years ago, according to a paper published in the "Journal of Economic Organization and Behavior."

"After at least 200,000 years of eking out an existence in glacial Eurasia, the Neanderthal suddenly went extinct," writes University of Wyoming economist Jason Shogren, along with colleagues Richard Horan of Michigan State University and Erwin Bulte from Tilburg University in the Netherlands. "Early modern humans arriving on the scene shortly before are suspected to have been the perpetrator, but exactly how they caused Neanderthal extinction is unknown."
www.catallaxis.com...

The human race is filled with heroes and rascals. It is not a survival of the fittest world. Anymore.

I would have to disagree. Nature is nature. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

reply to post by 27jd


Hmm? Looks like we agree on 3 and disagree on 1. That's better than I did with any of my 3 wives. Ex-wifes.

reply to post by donwhite


Alrighty, guess we can't be too greedy right? 2 out of 3 isn't bad...