Slave Descendants Try to Revive Lawsuit

If you read some of the comments, there are posters who do not have pity for Blacks. They have no qualms in saying so.

What have you missed in this thread? I mean, they even bolded and underlined some of their words.

But, I am not going to get into an argument with you. I rather just stay on topic.


[edit on 30-9-2006 by ceci2006]

Here is some interesting reference material for all to read.

It must be noted that the issue of slavery reparations is complicated by the fact that a group of African nations is now demanding 777 trillion dollars in compensation from the white nations that participated in the slave trade. Never mind that those same African nations helped slavery thrive by selling their conquered enemies to white traders who then brought their "purchases" to the New World as slaves. The issue is also further complicated by right-wing groups and their demands for reparations for reverse discrimination.
chicago.about.com...

And

There are a number of reasons why no one should take this demand seriously.

First and most important, the debt, whatever it may have been, has already been repaid. Abraham Lincoln made this clear in his Second Inaugural. There he argued that it would be just if the Civil War consumed all the wealth piled up by the slaves and if every drop of slave blood drawn by the slaveholder’s whip was paid for by a drop drawn by a sword. It took the South decades, perhaps almost a century, to recover the wealth lost in the war. The lives lost on both sides of course were never recovered. It was the sacrifices of those who fought and died in the war, Lincoln announced at Gettysburg, that would make possible a new birth of freedom in the United States. Every American, regardless of color, has benefited from that sacrifice.

If Lincoln’s principled moral accounting does not suffice, we might offer a more political argument against reparations. When those arguing for these payments ask the descendants of the Africans who enslaved their fellow Africans and then sold them to European slave traders to make them, then Americans might consider listening to arguments about reaparations. And if the descendants of Africans still in Africa involved in the slave trade paid reparations, then the U.S. government might consider doing the same.

But in fact, we are already paying reparations in a way. Affirmative action programs have been in place for over 30 years. They are very expensive. Federal, state and local governments spend money administering and enforcing them. Businesses spend more to make sure they are following the rules and defending themselves from administrative and legal action when someone thinks they are not. We also pay costs from increased incompetence and lower morale in the workplace.

Estimates of these costs vary. Some reach as high as hundreds of billions of dollars. But even if we accept lower estimates and remember that women and other minorities benefit from affirnative action policies, it it still clear that payments of tens of billions of dollars annually have been made to black Americans for decades. The fact that these payments do not seem to be doing much, if any, good, does not alter the fact that they are being made.

Finally, when considering the question of reparations we should return to a point suggested by Lincoln. All blacks descended from slaves are more than compensated for the damage of slavery by the good fortune of living in the United States. Every black in the United States is much better off economically, legally, politically, and morally than any black living in Africa. This is a debt of course that all Americans, not just blacks, owe and it can only be repaid by being a good citizen.
www.ashbrook.org...

And another good argument

NPR's Juan Williams:

Reparations today are more like the government's offer of reservations to Native Americans. They are an invitation to increase racial segregation and isolation of low-income black people. They would tell Americans of every other race that blacks, especially poor blacks, are a broken people who must be treated as wards of the state. Black people would be more highly stigmatized and negatively stereotyped than ever before. Social ills in the black community would be exaggerated as black people, flush with government checks, removed themselves from the vitality of mainstream American economic and cultural life. And it would be a cheap, easy out for the government. A onetime payment is sure to be cheaper than annual funding for social programs to deal with the ongoing horrors of bad schools for black kids, the high rate of unmarried black mothers and jails overflowing with young black people, especially young black men.
~~~~~~~
The Baltimore Sun's Gregory Kane:

Asians and East Indians face white supremacy and white and black racism. But they don't use racism as an excuse for academic failure. East Indians have bought most of the cab companies in New York and small motels and hotels--not to mention gas stations--across the country. They did it with organization and planning. They certainly didn't do it with reparations checks. Blacks could have done it, if for years we hadn't been following leaders whose motto should be "Ain't Too Proud to Beg."
~~~~~~~
The president of Senegal, Abdoulaye Wade, a descendant of generations of slave-owning African kings:

If one can claim reparations for slavery, the slaves of my ancestors, or their descendants, can also claim money from me. . . . It's not the Europeans of today or the Americans of today who brought slavery. It's the ancestors. Me, personally, how can I be responsible for what my ancestors did, in the 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th centuries?

Not noted by Overlawyered but also interesting was a signed piece by New York Times editorialist Brent Staples (link requires registration):

Black Americans made spectacular progress beginning in the decades after slavery, moving from cotton fields to the boardroom in just over a century. But the recent debate about reparations for slavery has introduced a different narrative in which black people are cast as a victim class seeking compensation for the suffering of ancestors. . . . By blaming history alone for modern-day social ills like poverty, illiteracy and unemployment, reparations advocates are unwittingly saying that these problems are so deeply rooted as to be unsolvable. They are also subverting the true story of black people in the United States. This story is one of extraordinary achievement in the face of gargantuan obstacles.
www.opinionjournal.com...

Interesting reading and some unique views on the subject.

ps: The last excerpt is made up of quotes from Black People that are against Reparations or monetary compensation.

Semper

[edit on 9/30/2006 by semperfortis]

Some more great reading from a Black perspective.

How sad. The reparations movement unmasks today's "black leadership" as negative, pessimistic, and operating on an assumption of the powerlessness of blacks to improve their own lives. Contrast the astonishing negativism of today's "black leadership" with the hope and promise of Booker T. Washington, who, only 35 years after the end of the civil war, argued the simple case of hard work. He said, when a black learns a skill or an occupation " ... as well or better than some one else, they will be rewarded regardless of race or colour (sic). In the long run, the world is going to have the best, and any difference in race, religion, or previous history will not long keep the world from what it wants."
~~~~~~~
Under this welfare state, black unwed pregnancies skyrocketed, so that today 70 percent of black children are born to fatherless households. Yet the focus of today's black leadership remains on the battle against racism, whether "overt," "covert," "conscious," "unconscious," "institutional," "environmental" or "systemic." But the enemy long ago began retreating. As John O'Sullivan of the National Review puts it, "White racism exists. But its social power is weak, the social power against it overwhelming."

So now the "black leadership" wastes time and energy on a morally, legally and philosophically bankrupt notion of reparations. Today's "black leadership" requires courage. It takes courage to tell the "helpless" they possess the power to help themselves. This means supporting principles of appropriate personal behavior; the avoidance of reckless, unprotected sex; that a day without two hard hours of homework is wasted.
www.frontpagemag.com...

I would appear that not all black's subscribe to this Lawsuit or Reparations at all.

Semper

Some more VERY interesting reading from Larry Elder...

The movement asks us to ignore, dismiss or minimize a few facts:

* The black American gross domestic product would make it one of the world's 15 wealthiest countries.

* The black American poverty rate, at 22 percent, is at an all-time low. A few years ago, a Fortune poll found that corporate blacks felt optimistic at the prospects for corporate upward mobility.

* A recent issue of Forbes looked at the top 100 celebrities, as defined by income, number of magazine cover stories, number of articles about, and number of Internet Web site hits. Of the 100, blacks (including Tiger Woods) made the list 26 times.

* A recent Harris Poll asked Americans to name their top hero or heroine. Jesus Christ topped the list, followed by Martin Luther King Jr. and Colin Powell. Michael Jordan also made the top 10 – and 10 of the top 30 are black (if you count Tiger Woods).

* Newsweek recently ran a cover story on Stanley O'Neal of Merrill Lynch; Ken Chenault of American Express; and Robert D. Parsons of AOL Time Warner – all black CEOs.
www.frontpagemag.com...

Semper

Originally posted by semperfortis
Just so we all know who we are dealing with in reference to this Lawsuit...

quote: original quote by ceci:
No, I do not. But Blacks are at the center of this lawsuit. That means that they are the focus of this particular case in terms of their treatment in slavery. And because of that reason, no one seems to have any pity for them.

no one seems to have any pity for them.

Semper

Semper .. at the start of this thread Ceci claimed that it wasn't about money, that she only wanted an apology. Now suddenly we are hearing all sorts of stuff from her about corporations and money .....

It's pity AND free money for her ...

Originally posted by ceci2006
And even though the Union army practiced conscription, I would be hard pressed to say that some of these "past relatives" had a choice in the matter whether they were going to serve or not. So, there's no law suit here.

WRONG. My ancestors volunteered. And even if some people were conscripted before they could volunteer that makes their sacrifice no less important or noteworthy. The FACT still remains that hundreds of thousands were killed or maimed while freeing slaves. If anyone tries to pick my pocket saying that we owe black people any money now because their ancestors were slaves 150+ years ago .. then I will turn around and demand payment from YOU, and the rest of the black community, for all the dead and wounded who got that way freeing slaves.

Open up your checkbook Ceci and prepare to write me a hefty check. If you steal from me .. I absolutely will be first in line to shake you down right back.




[edit on 9/30/2006 by FlyersFan]

EXACTLY!! FF

I had forgotten about that.

Hard to hide an Elephant behind a blade of grass.

With all the wild fluctuations in the posts, it is sometimes difficult to follow what is being asked in regards to the Lawsuit and/or Reparations in general.

There is a LOT of information out there coming from Successful Blacks that consider the idea of actions such as Reparation and this Lawsuit to be a literal "Slap in the Face" that completely dismisses their accomplishments.

Semper

Ending slavery was not done only for the benefit of the slaves, albeit they did benefit, but it was done for the benefit of the slaves owner as well. In the same way that torture is damming to the soul of the one who inflicts it, so also is the belief in a system which allows one person to own another person. You can inflict pain, you can demean, you can work your wicked will on helpless persons, but in the end, if they survive, they have kept their honor and humanity but you, the perpetrator, you gave up your honor and your humanity, you have noting remaining but the shameful memory of working your evil ways on another human. No one who holds himself or herself in good regard can do torture or claim the right to own another human.

Therein is the great danger found in the easy acceptance of and the approval of torture of our fellow humans, however we rationalize it. It reveals a flaw in your character. I do not want to be around people who are able to inflict torture. I am frightened of them. Some part of their humanity is missing in them. Any society that can easily acquiesce in the infliction of pain and suffering on helpless persons is one I do not want to be part of. They undermine the very values we have earned the hard way, over millennia past. And some amongst us are so quick to give it all away and so cheaply as for our own safety! We are valuing our own lives too highly.

If die we must, then let it be with our honor intact that they may speak well of us in later times.


[edit on 9/30/2006 by donwhite]

No Don White. I am not aggrieved. Not at all.

I think you missed the point. Let me try again ...

If Ceci is going to demand money from people NOW because of what happened way back THEN ... then the decendants of those who died fighting slavery THEN should have the same right to money from the slave decendants NOW.

I have never demanded 'reparations' for my ancestors death. I think it's as stupid as demanding reparations from people now for slavery from 150 years ago.

That's the point I was making.

If people are going shake me down and take my money which doesn't belong to them, then I have an equal right to shake them down and get my money back.



[edit on 9/30/2006 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by ceci2006
If you read some of the comments, there are posters who do not have pity for Blacks. They have no qualms in saying so.

I am one of the people who have no pity for blacks and I have no qualms in saying so. My pity is not given on the basis of skin color. I can't conceive wanting pity based on skin color. It's out of my realm of what's 'right'. In fact, I make NO decisions of how I feel about other people or what I think about them on the basis of the color of their skin. I don't use skin color as a guage to make judgments against or for people. Isn't that racism? To me it is.

I consider this a positive quality in myself. That's not to say that I'm "color-blind" or that I don't notice skin color, I just don't make judgments based on it. I wait till I have something of merit, something to go on before I make judgments about other people.

I have, in other threads, expressed my sorrow and empathy for people (of all color) who experienced the pain of slavery and who to this day experience the pain of the discrimination of racism.

I fail to see how a lawsuit would change anything. What needs to change, in my opinion, is our attitudes toward people who are different than ourselves. If racism itself were eradicated, there would be no need for reparations, which will do nothing but further racism.

In my opinion, the best thing black people could do is to take responsibility for their current experiences (not fault or blame, just the ability to respond) and do everything possible to effect change in the environment. The 'dominant culture' has no impetus to change things except for perhaps empathy. And while that's a perfectly good (and the most noble) reason to change things, we all know that sadly, very few people of any color in the world today make empathy and compassion for their fellow man a priority.

As is clear from the reparations movement, it's pretty much all about 'what's in it for me', 'what can I get for me and mine'. 'what is owed to me'...

posted by FlyersFan

If Ceci is going to demand money from people NOW because of what happened way back THEN . . I think it's as stupid as demanding reparations from people now for slavery from 150 years ago. That's the point I was making. If people are going shake me down and take my money which doesn't belong to them, then I have an equal right to shake them down and get my money back. [Edited by Don W]

OK, I think I see where you are coming from. In all seriousness, I do not believe the advocates of reparations really expect Congress is going to vote $100 billion to be divided amongst the 40 million African Americans. I think they are using the issue as shorthand for getting our attention. Flamboyant. Spectacular. Even people who seem to summarily brush it aside have to give it some thought. They are one level above ignoring it.

The issue will give them a public forum to set forth the lingering harm that befalls a people who are so greatly disadvantaged for so very long. It is too callous and too brittle in thinking to say OK, we repealed the Jim Crow laws, so “go and sin no more.” Harm inflicted over generations cannot be cured by passing a law.

Actually, Congress could not pass such a law; it was up to the ACTIVIST Earl Warren Supreme Court to throw down so many laws that Congress and state legislatures had enacted. Had it not have been for Brown v. Topeka, America would have had war in the streets! I don’t mean riots, I mean war!

I think those bringing the suit hope to get the nation’s attention and maybe to encourage some thoughtful people to consider what could be done to bring about the level playing field we claim to worship.



[edit on 9/30/2006 by donwhite]

Originally posted by donwhite
I do not believe the advocates of reparations really expect Congress is going to vote $100 billion to be divided amongst the 40 million African Americans. I think they are using the issue as shorthand for getting our attention.

So you thinks it's kind of a bait and switch scam?? Get our attention and get us all worked up thinking they are going to demand hundreds of billions .. and then in the end they will say that they are happy if tens of billions gets spent on black-specific social programs?

Do you think it's a bait and switch scam??

posted by FlyersFan

So you thinks it's kind of a bait and switch scam? Get our attention and get us all worked up thinking they are going to demand hundreds of billions . . and then in the end they will say that they are happy if tens of billions gets spent on black-specific social programs? Do you think it's a bait and switch scam? [Edited by Don W]

I would prefer to express it in less bellicose, more polite terms. Plus, I cannot really know what is in the minds of those advocating reparations. It is hard for me to believe any educated person in America thinks a Republican Congress would vote 50 cents for African Americans.

The fact remains that African Americans are disadvantaged because of the segregation imposed on them by white Americans. To better unify the country, to bring out all our potential so we can better compete with 1.3 billion Chinese and 1.1 billion Indians, it is tragic to leave 40 million good and fine citizens out of the mix. That is definitely an example of shooting one’s self in the foot.

What can we do? I’d suggest at a minimum we could absolutely set the maximum number of children in the lower 6 grades at 20 per classroom and add a qualified teacher’s aide. Give every child his or her choice of al hot breakfast or a hot lunch. A healthy meal. We don’t count ketchup as a vegetable.

You really don’t have to be very smart to figure how we could do better by our children, and especially, by our disadvantaged children . It’s a matter of will. Maybe the reparations controversy will help bring that to our attention. God knows we’ve tried everything else.



[edit on 9/30/2006 by donwhite]

It is hard for me to believe any educated person in America thinks a Republican Congress would vote 50 cents for African Americans.

Is it that you think the Democrats would?

It is a historical fact that almost every Civil Rights Amendment, Legislation, Bill and Proposal has been submitted and pushed by the Republican Party.

Tell me that with the intellect on here we don't have some that still fall into the trap of the Democratic Propaganda of being for the "Poor and Oppressed?"

How many Blacks were there in Clinton's Cabinet again?

Semper

posted by semperfortis

It is a historical fact that almost every Civil Rights Amendment, Legislation, Bill and Proposal has been submitted and pushed by the Republican Party.
Semper [Edited by Don W

Sleep well!

Give me a minute and I will be more than happy to provide you proof.

Don't go anywhere. I do this all the time..

Semper

Heeerrreeee you go...

In the 26 major civil rights votes after 1933, a majority of Democrats opposed civil rights legislation in over 80 percent of the votes. By contrast, the Republican majority favored civil rights in over 96 percent of the votes.

[See www.congresslink.org... and www.yale.edu...]

As a matter of record, when Kennedy was a senator from Massachusetts, he had an opportunity to vote on the 1957 Civil Rights Act pushed by Senate Majority Leader Lyndon Johnson. Instead, he voted to send it to the conservative Senate Judiciary Committee, where it would have been pigeonholed.

His record in the 1950s did not mark Kennedy as a civil rights activist. Yet the 1957Act to benefit African-Americans was passed with the help of Republicans. It was a watered- down version of the later 1964 bill, which Kennedy backed.

Republicans favored the bill 138 to 34; Democrats supported it 152-96. Republicans supported it in higher proportions than Democrats. Even though those Democrats were Southern segregationists, without Republicans the bill would have failed. Republicans were the other much-needed leg of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

On June 17, the Senate voted by a 76 to 18 margin to adopt the bipartisan substitute worked out by Dirksen in his office in May and to give the bill its third reading. Two days later, the Senate passed the bill by a 73 to 27 roll call vote. Six Republicans and 21 Democrats held firm and voted against passage.
www.newsmax.com...

Every single African-American in Congress until 1935 was a Republican. Among the Republican pioneers were South Carolina’s Joseph Rainey, the first black member of the House of Representatives, in 1870. Republican Hiram Revels of Mississippi became the first black U. S. Senator the same year. Two years later, Pinckney Pinchback of Louisiana became the nation’s first blac Governor.

Three years after Brown, President Eisenhower won passage of his landmark Civil Rights Act of 1957. Republican Senator Everett Dirksen authored and introduced the 1960 Civil Rights Act, and saw it through to passage. Republicans supported the 1964 Civil Rights Act and the 1965 Voting Rights Act overwhelmingly, and by much higher percentages in both House and Senate than the Democrats. Indeed, the 1964 Civil Rights Act became law only after overcoming a Democrat filibuster.
www.everythingiknowiswrong.com...

There is TONS more out there if you want me to get it for you.

Semper

Something me and my mate were discussing last night over a beer....

Not so long ago, we didn't have a bad anti-social problem in the UK. We had a good mix of people from all races that generally got on.People of all races went to the same schools, had good opportunities and generally everyone had an equal shot at success. There were problems, but nothing like we have today and certainly not anything to do with race. The Welsh were as poor as the northerners etc etc...

Lately, predominately among the young black and asian populations, we now have a vicous "Gangsta" culture. We have soaring gun crime, invariably black on black.

Only yesterday in London, two 15yr old boys, both black, were shot in a MacDonalds by two black youths. A black girl was shot by black gunmen in the North of england. Two weeks ago, a black boy was shot dead by black gunmen.

A month ago, a young white father was attacked by black youths outside his house and shot in the chest. He died, leaving a 2 year old son and a young widow.

I asked my mate, why? What is it about society that makes people do this. We couldn;t see why, as we did well ourselves. We have black friends that have done well. All in the same area, we can think of people of all colours who have done well. The ones that are causing the problems have some things in common..

They are nearly always Black or Asian (muslim) in origin.

They fell aggreived for some percieved injustice that, quite frankly, is not there. I can cite an example of a successful "ethnic" person for every delinquent you can present me.

And it's all come about with the importation of this "Gangsta" culture from the USA, where it's cool to not work, it's cool to be violent, it's cool to treat women like animals and it's cool to commit crime, all while getting a handout from the state as they are too lazy to sort themselves out.

From our point of view here in the UK, one can only guess at what it is like in the USA. From what I understand of the little gits on the street, they see the movies and listen to the songs coming from the states, which quite frankly only serve to glamourise the "Gangsta" culture, making kids all want to be like them.

They even alter the way they talk so they can sound, it's hard to describe, but for want of a better word, like a nasally-congested retard. Things like "Yo, dats sick blood, innit. Me got dat fat album by Yo Pimpy, sick..." all while walking down the street like they just stood on a landmine or are auditioning for a part in Planet of the Apes.

All this behaviour does is negatively reinforce the stereotype, as behaving like a congested, violent moron is hardly like to get you a good job.

It appears to be completeley voluntary too. No one is forcing them not to go to school. No one is forcing them to shoot each other. No one is forcing them to dress and behave like a "gangsta".

It's all them. But, you ask them why they have no job and they'll be the first to blame the White man, or the "System" or any other peice of BS they can think of.

I went to the same schools that these people do and live in the same areas, as did others I have mentioned, but I didn't turn out like that, so it's not the System or the White man.

Its completely voluntary.

They get handouts, free housing and get to pretend to be a gangsta "wid der mates, innit blood"..

Nothing to do with slavery, nothing to do with the white man and nothing to do with discrimination. No sympathy from me, I'm afraid. If you keep relying on handouts and permeating this "victim" or "downtrodden" culture, then you'll still be there in a decade when the rest of us have moved on.

I think it;s high time that you dropped this issue and moved on as well.

I am not even going to start on the "reverse racism" that is prevalent in our society now....

MOBO awards??!!

What kind of crap storm would there be if there was a MOWO? Enough said, I think.

There seems to be a rather unique phenomenon that occurs on this thread and the others like it.

Lots and LOTS of posting about personal opinion, personal events and random slices of baloney. Then when anyone posts "Proof", "Links" or articles that go against the victim train of thought, there is only silence.

It is so easy to rant and rave about something that you feel passionate about. It is much harder to examine evidence that contradicts the same passionate subject. Yet, if you do not look at "all" the possibilities, examine everything you can find, then you very simply live in ignorance.

How can one that looks for the intellectual debate, take anything someone says as valid, that refuses to examine evidence? Without looking at all sides, there can be no intellect.

There are many sides to the debate on Reparations and the Lawsuits filed in response to those same reparations. Many have been posted here, many have yet to be explored. However, without empirical data, we are just arguing, not debating at all.

Semper

posted by semperfortis

Heeerrreeee you go...

In the 26 major civil rights votes after 1933, a majority of Democrats opposed civil rights legislation in over 80 percent of the votes. By contrast, the Republican majority favored civil rights in over 96 percent of the votes. Semper [Edited by Don W]

I suppose that is why 90% of Blacks vote Democratic?

Reality Check:
Ronnie Reagan, darling of the Right Wing, called on the Southern Democrats who were his philosophical bedfellows, to leave the Democratic Party and join him with the other selfish backward lookers in the Republican Party. They were called “Boll Weevils” for reasons I should not have to relate. I am proud to report they did and in droves.

Since 1981, the Dems have been cleaned out of the racists who found a welcome home in the GOP.

And that is what "YOU" say. Not evidence (See my post)

Only you voicing an opinion with nothing of substance.

And lets say your correct, that your one instance is valid. How does that diminish what I have posted?

You’re Self Deluding, Semper Fi, Or Disingenuous

Also, can we keep this on a professional level and stop with the personal evaluations? If not, just tell me and you may have the board. I will not stoop to that level.

This is an interesting subject, but not worth getting personally involved over.

Semper