Islamic Injustice on ATS

Originally posted by Allah the moon god
Things I question about mohamed and Islam.
3) Was above his own laws. you may have only 4 wives he had 12..if I remember.

actually he was married to all of them before the laws where set and initiated. So he didn't violate any laws or contradict any laws before they where set or revealed to the land.

Originally posted by Allah the moon god
4) He could not read or write, so his words are only word of mouth Chinese whispers and in any case all writings occurred after his death.

no actually all the writtings occured during he life he used to give speaches and recite the words regularly to people and they used to write them down and memorise the words. Also they kept another list which i can't rember the name of and in this list it wrote down in what order which things he said where written down. This way they had a perfect system where they had complete written records of what was said and in what order. Infact even at that time there where multiple records of what was written so they could confirm there where no errors in the written verses.

Originally posted by Allah the moon god
5) Allah was an ancient god worshipped by desert peoples. The name was nicked because god needed a name. (Puzzling as this so called allah is basically the same Abrahamic god that the Jews had already named..Why did it need another name??)

actually no. Allah is a descriptive word used by arabs to mean "He who has the Godhood which is the power to create the entities." & "god".
al = "the", illah = "god";

infact muslims don't actually have a word for god and use descriptive words to describe him rather then have an actual name for him. Infact allah is not a name of god but is a descriptive word to represent him in islam he has over 99 descriptive words which are used to describe him :

www.faizani.com...

allah is infact a generic term used by arabs also initself it also means "the god" as well as representing what i said above. Infact christians in arab countries also refer to god as "allah" becuase its also a generic term to descrive the high and mighty.

Originally posted by Allah the moon god
6) The Koran (however you spell it) was a conglomeration of several documents, the relevant scriptures used that supported the sponsor of the work....the originals were burned. Why?

actually no they wearnt. alot of confusion stems around this idea that they where burned.

people make the comman mistake and assume all arabs are the same infact they couldn't be further from the truth each arab group is different then the other the only thing same between them is they are all called "arabs" and share some similar language "words" infact arabs are different from each other they have different writting techniques and speacking techniques.

Infact if you take an arab from 1 country and send him to another he would have a very difficult time communicating or reading things of the other arac country becuase they speak/write using a different arabic system. there are many different and varied arabic system which are very different from one another.

Basically the point im trying to get at is every arab tribe/group has there own version of arabic which is very different from other arabic styles meaning each group has there own system.

The muslims actually only origanly had 1 quran. The problem was that the other tribes couldn't read it or understand it becuase it was written using the arabic system of the prophet mohammed which meant other groups couldn't follow it and only the sahaba could understand it. To solve this problem the muslims translated the origanal quran into all the different arabic dialects and sent them to all the tribes. After a while they realised these varied dialect qurans where being even more modiyed by those tribes and where begining to change so all the copies of the quran which where modifyed with different dialects where recalled and burned becuase they where starting to get too much modification by the tribes. Those are the only copies that where burned.

The original quran was always 1 and has never been changed. When the variations where burned they where only the variations of those with modifyed dialects while the original quran is unchanged infact you can actually go and see the original qurans in some countries ?uzbeqistan? i think it was still has the orginal copy of the quran which all other qurans where written from.

The origanal qurans are untouched and only the variations of the quran which where modifyed for the different tribes where burned.

if you look at every quranic copy in the world they are 100% identicle becuase they are unchanged.

Originally posted by Allah the moon god
7) IF allah is Yahweh / Jehovah why is his word in yet another language? The persons in the OT communicated with god who seems to be a Hebrew entity...why would it hundreds of years later want its word written in another language?

Actually the jews/hebrews lost there protection from god when they tried to kill jesus so then they where no longer protected by god so then god moved onto the next of the children of abrham which are the arabs. Infact the "god" that jews follow is not a hebrew god but is the "god of abraham" which means he is not linked to the hebrew but to the children of abrham. Arabs are just as much children of abraham as the jews so after the jews refused jesus. arabs decend from the son of abraham.
God moved onto the next group which are arabs and sent them the message. So no god is not linked to the hebrew language but is linked to the children and family of abraham.




also note your name is "allah the moon god" yet if you read the quran it clearly says not to worship the moon :

Quran 41:37
Among His Signs are the Night and the Day, and the Sun and the Moon. Do not prostrate to the sun and the moon, but prostrate to Allah, Who created them, if it is Him ye wish to serve.

how can he be a moon god when he clearly states not to worship the moon?

[edit on 17-4-2006 by iqonx]

Originally posted by iqonx
Actually the jews/hebrews lost there protection from god when they tried to kill jesus so then they where no longer protected by god so then god moved onto the next of the children of abrham which are the arabs. Infact the "god" that jews follow is not a hebrew god but is the "god of abraham" which means he is not linked to the hebrew but to the children of abrham. Arabs are just as much children of abraham as the jews so after the jews refused jesus. arabs decend from the son of abraham.

Where is this written that the Jews "lost" the protection from god when they tried to kill jesus ??? Also there is no mention in the Bible about any new prophet or new choosen people that he would take into his fold!
What do you mean that the Jewish God is not a hebrew GOd? Who do you think moses is ? French ? From the days of Abraham, Biblical Hebrew has always been the language of the jews, it is the language in which Moses received the commandments. Even the old testament is written in biblical hebrew and so is the entire Talimund! What are you talking about ??

Also you claim that arabs are as much the children of Abraham, why then has the lord forsaken you for so many millenia and why they has he not choosen his messiah to be an Arab rather than a jew ?
Also you claim that the jews lost their protection because they killed jesus, but Islam doest accept Christ to be the messiah nor do they grant him

CHAPTER 5:VERSE 51

O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Auliyâ' (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but Auliyâ' to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as Auliyâ', then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allâh guides not those people who are the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong­doers and unjust).

CHAPTER 18 : VERSE 4

And to warn those (Jews, Christians, and pagans) who say, "Allâh has begotten a son (or offspring or children)."

Jesus NOT FIT to intercede:
They will go to Jesus who will say, ‘I am not fit for this undertaking, but you’d better go to Muhammad whose sins of the past and future had been forgiven (by allah)’ Hadith Volume 9, Book 93, Number 507.

Surely, disbelievers are those who said: ‘Allah is the third of the three (in a Trinity)." But there is no AIlah (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One AIlah (God —Allah). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall on the disbelievers among them. [al-Maa’idah 5:7]

Originally posted by IAF101

Where is this written that the Jews "lost" the protection from god when they tried to kill jesus ??? Also there is no mention in the Bible about any new prophet or new choosen people that he would take into his fold!
What do you mean that the Jewish God is not a hebrew GOd? Who do you think moses is ? French ? From the days of Abraham, Biblical Hebrew has always been the language of the jews, it is the language in which Moses received the commandments. Even the old testament is written in biblical hebrew and so is the entire Talimund! What are you talking about ??

first of all moses is not god. Moses is a prophet a messenger of god not god so why does it matter is moses is french or whatever.

the reason why god is not hebrew is becuase the god of abraham was not henrew if you take a look at Abraham he was actually neither arab or hebrew infact both arabs and jews are actually decendants of Ishmael and Isaac who are both children of Abraham. So both the jewish and arab race come from abraham hence when the god of abraham was revieled to mankind which was a sinular god the jews or arab race was not even created becuase those races decended from the children of abraham who where Issac and Ishmael.

Hence god cannot be jewish/hebrew or have a language that doesn't even exist at the time of him being revealed to mankind through Abraham. Jews/hebrew and arabs came after abraham died infact way after becuase they where created from Abrahams offspring. So god of Abraham was actually revealed before the jewish/arab races where even created.

also note that the talmud is not actually the word of god but of the rabbi's so it doesnt matter what language it's written in becuase it's not the word of god.

god is not linked to the jews but only promised them protection as long as they followed his word infact thats why jesus was sent to get the jews to follow the Toarah. Infact god of abraham has never said he is the god of jews becuase when he was revealed the jews didn't even exist but he provided them a favour as long as they followed his teaching becuase if you read the religous books you would realise that god sent many prophets to many groups the jews just happened to be 1 of many groups.

there special protection ended when they tryed to kill jesus who was send to bring them back onto the path. Once this happened god moved onto the next group who are the decendants of Abraham the arabs.

Originally posted by IAF101
Also you claim that arabs are as much the children of Abraham, why then has the lord forsaken you for so many millenia and why they has he not choosen his messiah to be an Arab rather than a jew ?

we'll god hasen't forsaken me for being arab becuase i'm not an arab. Arabs only make up about 13-15% of the muslims in the world.

islam.about.com...

Although Islam is often associated with the Arab world and the Middle East, fewer than 15% of Muslims are Arab.

why do you assume anybody who is a muslim is an arab?

Actually the muslims belive the messiah to be Jesus. The purpose of mohammed who is actually a messenger and not a messiah is/was to bring the quran the final unaltered book from god which is to be preserved and remain unmodifyed throughout time. So far the promise has been kept and the koran remains to this day 100% identicle to the original copies that can be seen in museums around uqbekistan and turkey.

Originally posted by IAF101
Also you claim that the jews lost their protection because they killed jesus, but Islam doest accept Christ to be the messiah nor do they grant him

actually muslims do recognise jesus as a messiah. The difference is christians see him as a son of god muslims say this is impossible becuase the "god of abraham" is singular with no family, son, child, wife etc..... infact the christian bible's version of jesus actually violates the laws set by the actual torah itself about god.

muslims see jesus as the messiah who will save mankind the only difference between islam and christianity is they don't belive jesus is son of god but DO recognise him as the messiah. This is the purpose of the quran its too teach people and bring them back onto the path of the "god of abraham" by exaplining to them that jesus is not god but is just a prophet altough one of the most important becuase he is the messiah but the quran does give warnings to christians to stop assosiating him with god.

www.quranbrowser.com...'idah+5:51

O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One God. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.
Quran verse 004:171

Originally posted by IAF101

CHAPTER 5:VERSE 51

O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Auliyâ' (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but Auliyâ' to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as Auliyâ', then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allâh guides not those people who are the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong­doers and unjust).

this quote has absolutly nothing to do with what where talking about but i will explain it.

It means not to make millitry alliences "Auliya"=Millitry pacts. Do not make pacts with jews and christians becuase they only have millitry pacts with each other and they will screw you over is what there trying to say. Funny thing is this was written over 1500 years ago and now take a look at how israel was created and how america, Britain and other christian countries bend over backwards to support the israelis.



[edit on 17-4-2006 by iqonx]

Originally posted by IAF101
Well, it hasnt been working in recent incindents are to be taken into consideration. In fact if it were not for the British governments intervention we would still be hearing about that radical British imam brainwashing people every Friday? If you wanted to curb radicalism why did the moslem community let him preach ? Why did so many attend his sermons ?
Also what is this strategy that you have taken exactly ? Stopping radicalism -how ? You claim that its not possible.

One radical British Imam being heard from dozens if not more than 50 followers.. And you say Muslims failed? If Muslims failed you would've seen hundreds of radical Imams preaching to thousands of followers..

Take the late Dr Zaki Badawi, he made a difference. And I'm sure there are hundreds more Imams out there who try their best too.

Originally posted by IAF101
A dent ? They have caused the Italians to move out for example . They have decreased support for the coalition at home and abroad. Moreover now, its the UN that wants the coaltion there rather than the coalition themselves.

Hardly a success though wasn't it? They tried and good on them, it showed that they weren't for this war and that they would try all they could to stop it but didnt succeed. That doesnt make me think any less of them, atleast they tried.

Just like the Muslims are trying to prevent terrorism and extremism breeding in their backyards, they might not succeed fully but they can try their best and hope for the best.

Originally posted by IAF101
A lot of christians have died due to 9/11, and other acts by islamic terrorism in the world have also effected so many other faiths do you see any retalitatory terrorist organizations forming ??
What do you think will happen when they do start forming ? Will you claim that this is just a natural reaction on their part and can the rest of us claim to be inncoent for letting this trend spread?

I won't claim it to be an natural reaction at all, they will still be terrorists just like the Islamic terrorists we have today.

Originally posted by IAF101
You obviously have given up!
You say that the moslem community has been trying to cut their recruitment line by swaying yound Moslems then how do you explain teenagers blowing themselves in subways, radical imams preaching the destruction of the west, the people torching embassies, beheading people on TV etc ?? Cant this be called failure ?
Why cant you accept that ?

Given up? Now your talking bs. Read above on how it exactly shows how Muslims have "given" up.

Originally posted by IAF101
You can because you are a moslem ! There was a member here on ATS from california that turned in a fellow moslem he saw preaching radicalizm at his mosque to the FBI, what makes you think that you wouldnt be able to do something similar by calling 999? Let me find the thread...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

What makes you think I haven't done so already? Infact what makes think no Muslims have done so already?

Originally posted by IAF101
How can you be ex-moslem ? Isnt death the penalty for those who leave islam according to the sharia ?

What? I live in the UK, it says under my avatar.
It's not exactly the same everywhere.

Originally posted by IAF101
Like I said, no one can police a community better than the members of that community. It would be the duty of every community to curb activities from within that damage other communites because if you fail to do so, it is not only the individual that is to blame but the entire community for failing to do its duty. Will you let you drug dealers and brothels take over your neighbourhood ??

And again this is exactly what is happening.. Crime happens around the world everyday.. Every country has its own way of trying to reduce it but that doesn't mean they can stop it because crime will happen anyway. Does that mean they failed?

Originally posted by IAF101
You have shown me nothing, rather you have told me that moslems have protested against terrorism and I have accepted it in good faith. You claim that they are doing this and that, but where are the results ? Nothing that you claim is being done by the moslem community against terrorists has actually produced any results on the ground. In fact if anything, since 9/11 there has been an increase in fundamentalist activity within the Western world by the moslem community. Thus the 7/11 bombings !

US Muslims reject Terror
Moderate and Progressive Muslims Fight Back
Citizens of Bahrain protest against Terrorism
150,000 Morrocans protest against Terrorism
Indian Muslims protest against Terror
10,000 British Muslims protest agaisnt Terror
Half a Million Mosques Protest Terror in Bangladesh
Muslim Norwegians protest terrorism
Spanish Muslims decry Al Qaeda
Australian Muslims Condemn Terror
American Muslims against Terror and Extremism
200,000 Jordanians Protest Against Al Qaeda
Mentors for Muslims to stop extremism in jails
Siddiqui tells Muslim conference: Confront extremism
British Muslims: We can't stop extremism
UK Muslims back Blair's bid to throw out fanatics
Dutch Muslims rally against violence
Muslims against Terrorism
Muslims against Terrorism (2)
Muslims against Extremism and Fundamentalism
Bahrain Muslims show support for UK victims.

Pictures you never see;

Originally posted by IAF101
What difference do we seen when you claim to be doing something and when you are not ? There are still people in your communities willing to go blow themselves up and still people who see this as a glorious sacrifice and support those who want to blow themselves up.
When Salman Rashid writes a book there are people left, right and center issueing fatwas and the lot but there is no mention of a fatwa on Bin Laden or on Al-Zarqawi or any radical elements that the moslem community is so "desperately" trying to curb. I would think being responisible for some of the worst terrorist attacks in the history of mankind would be cause enough but apparently writing a book, Salman Rashdi has more people in the islamic community baying for his blood!

If you wanna see what Muslims are doing, visits their sites like Muslim news or Muslimfortoday etc. Sites that are dedicated to reporting everyday news about Muslims wheter insificting or otherwise. News that never makes it into CNN or Fox unless its Muslims burning flags or killing someone somewhere.

About the Fatwa;
Muslims issue fatwa against bin Laden

Originally posted by IAF101
I dont know if you are aware of the fact or not, but the king of saudi Arabia, that is the Al-Saud family are some of the more "liberal" forces in Saudi Arabia. For if it wasnt for the Al-Saud family, the Wahaabi's would run amok in the region trying to turn it into some ultra orthadox Taliban style madness except on a much larger scale. Despite displeasing the large community of moslems by curbing terrorists and inturn sacrificing their own saftey they have still stuck it out by making fight terrorists on their soil. In fact they even promised bin-laden $2 billion if he would call off his jihad and make peace! Also the Al-Saud family rules saudi arabia only because the Saudi King is the sole custodian of the two holy mosques and thus rules the "holy land" !
Another point is that US troops entered Saudi Arabia only because the Saudi's asked for protection against Saddam husseins aggression and the failure of the Saudi Army.

You want to know what would happen if the west were to disengage from the middle-east. There would be a nuclear holocaust that would make Hiroshima look sissy ! The only reason this has not happened is because the west is there to contain the situation time and time again. It was due to the wests disengagement after the afghan war that Al-qaeda was able to dominate the region and spread its extreemist roots to africa. Had the West taken a more pro-active role earlier in the day, from the very beginning we wouldnt be discussing why moslem feel hurt when people accuse them of supporting terrorists !

I believe otherwise when the US leaves the middle-east but since there is no point in arguing on something that'll never happen I'll just leave it at that.

I try to be as impartial as I can, but I bet I have a tendancy against some muslims posts.

The reason is because most of the posts that are pro muslim also seem inflammatory too me against everyone who isn't a muslim. If you want to be mean spirited, tell how Iran has developed a new stealth weapon every
day, and then back it up with a very slanted news story or website it really gets me pissed off. It is always Jews killing and stealing land. But Muslims are the good ones in the situation. Well all sides are most likely jerks not just Jewish people.

I don't like to let things pass all the time, so I respond in a manner that the thread is going. (And this can wrong.)

[Mod Edit: removed unnecessary quote of entire preceeding post]



I'm sorry where have people claimmed they where muslims when posting threads about Irans technology Stealth missiles. Infact i'm willing to bet most Iranian posters on ATS are not even muslim. Or when have they claimmed it was good for islam or muslims infact if you read alot of pro-iranian post's they are usally devoid of anything to do with islam and islam is not even mentioned in those posts infact they are usally nationalist posts of people who are proud of there nations achivements.




Mod Edit: Big Quote – Please Review This Link.


[edit on 4/18/2006 by 12m8keall2c]

From the dude above...
Quote "I'm sorry where have people claimmed they where muslims when posting threads about Irans technology Stealth missiles. Infact i'm willing to bet most Iranian posters on ATS are not even muslim. Or when have they claimmed it was good for islam or muslims infact if you read alot of pro-iranian post's they are usally devoid of anything to do with islam and islam is not even mentioned in those posts infact they are usally nationalist posts of people who are proud of there nations achivements. " End Quote


You are right on some of this, as did not say what is different from nationalism and religionism. And I needed to state it better, but at least I am being honest with my opinion. If you don't agree with it, so be it.


I can play the quote game.

Originally posted by firebat
What I don't understand is why Islam is the big focus. There are WACKOS like Pat Robertson in all religions, not just Islam. Guys like Jerry Falwell and his followers scare me, and sicken me, JUST AS MUCH as any Osama Bin Diversion that the U.S. government or media tries to shove in my face.

Why is Islam the next big threat? The extreme Christian right will drive this country into the ground LONG before any kalashnikov-carrying thug from Saudi Arabia ever gets the chance.

Well when Pat and his cronies start bombing bus stations and calling for the murder of innocent people and start crashing planes into buildings, then maybe perhaps I will condemn them in the same manner.

Or when a group of Christians take power along the lines of Hamas and have a stated mission of destroying a Muslim nation, then I will condemn them in the same fashion.

answering-islam.org...

I found this site and I put it up to the readers of this thread to tell me what they think of it.

Offensive War to Spread Islam

Muhammad and his successors initiated offensive wars against peaceful countries in order to impose Islam by force as well as to seize the abundance of these lands. Their objective was to capture women and children and to put an end to the poverty and hunger from which Arab Muslims suffered. So, Islam was imposed upon Syria, Jordan, Palestine (Jerusalem), Egypt, Libya, Iraq, Iran, all of North Africa, some parts of India and China, and later Spain.

Undoubtedly, the concept of an offensive war to spread the faith is a genuine Islamic concept; it is known as a Holy War for the sake of God. We will see what Muslim scholars have explicitly determined that this is the essence of Islam. They also indicate that if sufficient military power is available to Islamic countries, they ought to attack all other countries in order to force them to embrace Islam, or pay the poll tax and be subject to Islamic rule. Muhammad (as well as all the Caliphs who succeeded him) called for holy wars . All scholars and lawyers acknowledge that.

Those who say that the Islamic wars were always defensive do not understand Islam and have not read sufficient history. It should be evident that offensive wars to spread Islam are the heart of the entire religion of Islam. They embody the meaning of "Striving for the cause of God"—holy war to make the Word of God supreme over the whole world. Our study will be filled with objective quotes from the statements of scholars, along with a throng of true stories.

If this is true, then perhaps more people can understand why Muslims are held in such low regard.


[Mod Edit: shortened quote to first 3 paragraphs]
Mod Edit: Big Quote – Please Review This Link.


[edit on 4/17/2006 by 12m8keall2c]

OK, first of all, I don't believe Muhammed to be a prophet. He never performed a single miracle and changed the Old and New Testament to his own whims. I also don't take the talmud, a piece of commentary whose early mishnah section was written by Babylonian idol worshippers seriously either (it is what it claims to be- commentary and no more, Like texts such as the book of Maccabees it could be a useful can opener, but never the same rank as the old testament). That said I believe the Abrahamic covenant was unconditional- Israel DID reject the Messiah as predicted but the promise was made to Abraham based on *his* righteousness, not that of scribes and pharisees. Also the line of prophecy will come from Isaac, NOT Ishmael, that was a priveledge given to Isaac only and then transferred from Esau to Jacob (Esau sold his birthright for a bowl of stew, blame him if Muhammed wasn't a prophet).

[edit on 17-4-2006 by Nakash]

All anyone here can do is apologize for the human garbage that frequent these boards. They don’t really hate Muslims (or Christians, or Jews, or anyone else), they hate themselves. They are small minded people of limited IQ’s who can only justify their own inadequacies by attacking others beliefs.
None of what I’m about to say here is directed at any one individual. These are just my beliefs regarding terrorism and its apologists in general.

All religions aside, terrorism is pure evil by any reasonable human beings definition. If you believe terrorism is OK, you are a sociopath and society needs to be protected from you.
Terrorists are much more than just the brainwashed child who straps on the bomb. Many are terrorists by association and by aiding and abetting known terrorists. If your child, brother, sister, father, mother, cousin, friend or anyone you know joins a terrorist organization and you do not immediately turn them in to the authorities, you are a terrorist. If you are an apologist for the terrorists and their butcher of innocent people, you are a terrorist. If you sit around and do nothing while your religious leaders preach hate and encourage terrorism, you are a terrorist. If you are a terrorist yourself, you are either evil or crazy and you should be locked up forever and one day.
Regarding Palestinian groups: “Freedom fighters” do not strap on bombs and kill innocents, only terrorists do that. To justify their actions by pointing a finger at others perceived offenses makes you an accomplice and by association a terrorist. If my neighbor offends me I go after them not their children. To do so would be the act of a madman.
If you think you are going to get rewarded with virgins in heaven for blowing up innocents – I’ve got a bridge I’d like to sell you. If there is an actual Hell, that’s where all terrorists are really going.
We are free because our ancestors got “mad as hell” and they would not “put up with it anymore”. They put their lives on the line and spilled their blood to earn their freedom. Freedom does not come without a price. If Muslims want to be free, you will have to make the same sacrifices and fight for what you want. No one else is going to do it for you. Stop looking for the mote in others eyes and get the giant log out of yours.
If Muslims in general want to leap out of the dark ages, you will have to declare an internal war on terrorism. You will have to do it yourselves. All others can do is hold evil at bay. We can not change something internally we are not a part of. You will have to remove terrorist sympathizers from your pulpits and governments by force if necessary. You will have to make sure your children are taught about the horrors of terrorism, the same as you do about drugs. You will have to eliminate any teachers who are teaching otherwise. You have to lock up or eliminate anyone associated with terrorism in your society. You will have to make it very clear that there are no rewards in heaven for suicide or murder and that anyone doing those acts will bring shame and ruin to their families. You have to teach your children to respect all life, Muslim or otherwise. You will also have to stop rationalizing by pointing to the sins of others as it only makes you look the fool.


[edit on 17-4-2006 by Blaine91555]

[edit on 17-4-2006 by Blaine91555]

Originally posted by QuietSoul
I'm not Islamic,

Exactly, so you do not understand what Islam is about you can only speculate from what you "believe" to be true.

Blaine, well said. Thank you.

Best-
Aimless

Thanks Blaine. What's the use though? Nothing is ever going to change- it's "cool" to be a terrorist in the middle East, Iran's military is building up solely to resemble suicide bombers (ie: they are making their navy into little suicide boats which can wipe out bigger boats, their old crappy planes into modern kamikazes, and a university JUST to train suicide bombers, 10,000 already prepared). It's hopeless. We laugh at the virgins thing all the time but too many people in the middle East believe in it. What can we do?

[edit on 17-4-2006 by Nakash]

[Mod Edit: removed unnecessary quote of entire preceeding post]


actually the iranians are shia. the virgins thing is not in the quran but the hadeeths the shia don't follow those hadiths that contain the thing about the virgins hence they don't belive they will get virgins.

i'm sure the iranians arnt preparing to die just for fun. Britain & America are very dangerous and violent countries which has been on irans's back since the 1950's for Iran's oil supplies.

www.nytimes.com...



Mod Edit: Big Quote – Please Review This Link.


[edit on 4/18/2006 by 12m8keall2c]

Originally posted by iqonx
first of all moses is not god.

I never stated that he was god. I refer to moses because, God came to him and helped him save the Jewish people and also god gave him the 10 commandments in biblical hebrew, thus clearly stating that the God who promised Abraham a kingdom to his decendents was the very same god who directed Moses to the land of Israel.

the reason why god is not hebrew is becuase the god of abraham was not henrew if you take a look at Abraham he was actually neither arab or hebrew infact both arabs and jews are actually decendants of Ishmael and Isaac who are both children of Abraham.

Again, this is merely conjecture on your part. No scripture says that the GOd of the Jews is different form the God of Abraham for they are one and the same.
You errorously claim that Abraham's God is not the god of the jews but if you read the scriptures, they say that the creator whom Abraham had worshiped came to him, in order to test the faith of Abraham, asked him to leave his home and his family for which in return God promised him a nation and his eternal blessings. Abraham accepted this offer and thus the covenant with the Jewish people and God started. (Gen.12)
Also Abram is referred to as a Hebrew (Ivri), possibly because he was descended from Eber (Gen. 11). And again God comes to Abraham and tells him that his decendents wouldl be aliens in a land not their own and thus would face oppression, that God would judge their oppressors and bring them to safety. (Gen.15)

Then you have the case of Ishmael who was born to Abraham and his wife's maidservant, Hagar, for his own wife was not able to bear children and thus Ishmael was born. Not from Abraham and his wife Sarah but from Abraham and Hagar, who was a pagan. In comparision, Issac the son of Sarah was a gift of God to Abraham, as a way to pass on the covenant made between God and Abraham.
(Gen.17). Also it says that the covenant will be born by the descendents of the son of Sarah only, for God has choose Issac to be the one who follows the covenant between God and Abraham.

Another point to note is that when Hagar leaves Sarah, she is informed by an angel that her son would be a "wild man" who would live away from his own and his hand would be against others and all others against him, he would go against all his kin ! (Gen.16-12)

Clearly, Ishmael is not the choosen descendent of God and neither are his descendents and it was on Abrahams request that he be granted a gift too. Also even when Abraham insisted that Ishmael would carry on his covanant, God bore Sarah Issac so that Issac will follow the covenant with God and this was said to be an ever-lasting pact to the descendents of Issac. (Gen.17-19)

What you claim is nothing but your personal interpretation or some other conjecture about what is written in the scriptures about some partial covenant with God and the descendants of Issac. The Jews killing Jesus was not an act against God and no where is it written or mentioned as such but it was in fact the sacrifice of Jesus for mankind, a recompense for the collective sins of mankind. Obviously, Mohammed wasnt aware of the all the details of this sacrifice and thus the Koran make but a fleeting mention of this.

why do you assume anybody who is a muslim is an arab?

What I mean, is why would God Forsake the Arabs for so many millenia without providing them with guidence if that was his intention. As for you being Arab or not, it is of little difference, you are still moslem.

muslims see jesus as the messiah who will save mankind the only difference between islam and christianity is they don't belive jesus is son of god but DO recognise him as the messiah.

That makes no sense, for it was Jesus who himself said that he was the Son. If islam considers him a messaih but doest trust him when he says he's the son of God ? Thats meaningless. If Islam claims Jesus to be Gods messiah but says that one shouldnt listen to what he says??? Absurd!

but the quran does give warnings to christians to stop assosiating him with god.

warnings or threats ? As is common in the Koran its only black or white, follow what Mohamad says or burn in hell !

this quote has absolutly nothing to do with what where talking about but i will explain it.

It shows perfectly that Islam doesnt consider the Jews and the Christians to be fellow followers but rather considers them as a different group, seperating itself from the God of Abraham which is the God fo the Jews and the God of the Christians and rather preaches that they are polytheists !![zalimun]

Funny thing is this was written over 1500 years ago and now take a look at how israel was created and how america, Britain and other christian countries bend over backwards to support the israelis.

What is even funnier is that in the time of Abraham, God not some illiterate prophet, proclaimed that the Ishmael would be :

Genesis 16
12 He will be a wild donkey of a man;
his hand will be against everyone
and everyone's hand against him,
and he will live in hostility
toward all his brothers."

And now nearly 3000 years later his descendants proved without a shadow of a doubt the word of GOD to be true !! The "wild... men" of Palestine and Iraq being prime examples of the true sons of Ishmael, the pagan's child.

[edit on 18-4-2006 by IAF101]

Ishmael turned out exactly as the Bible predicted. Another bit of biblical prophecy fullfilled.

To AIF101

Seriously i've stated what i wanted to state above in those posts i made but you are now taking this onto a level of persoanl opinion rather then actual stated information. So now i will pull out of this conversation with you becuase there's no point in talking about religon becuase it's based on belief.

All the stuff you claim cannot be varified becuase it's based around a belief so there's no point in talking about this further about things such as jesus or isaac and ishmael. I'm not really going to argue about quotes from the bible or torah. The bible cannot even be linked to jesus and the orignal bible doesn't even exist today so there's no point in talking about it's content. This is becuase we'll end up taking this thread off-topic.

[edit on 18-4-2006 by iqonx]

[edit on 18-4-2006 by iqonx]

Originally posted by shire19
One radical British Imam being heard from dozens if not more than 50 followers.. And you say Muslims failed?

Thats like saying; one pedophile allowed go about molesting a dozen children doesnt mean that the community failed, its only when there are thousands of them that the community has failed ! Does that make any sense ?
Yes, if you allow one madman to go around preaching, be it to a dozen or half a dozen, preaching nonetheless in the open, then the community has allowed this to take place and thus has failed in its duty! Its not like this imam had some underground cult meeting up in peoples basements did he, he was preaching in the mosques, in fact he was the head of a mosque ! Can we see this as anything other than an utter and complete failure, especially when you claim that the moslem community is out in arms against radical elements?

It takes one terrorist to discredit Islam, how many terrorists do you think are out there ?

Just like the Muslims are trying to prevent terrorism and extremism breeding in their backyards, they might not succeed fully but they can try their best and hope for the best.

You've said that Moslems have been trying to prevent radicalizm since before 9/11 and yet you have had no appreciable sucesses in preventing a disaster through the intervention of the moslem community or any such. But in the US, there are many moslems here that have informed the FBI about suspected terrorist activites by those they meet in the mosque, I think my previous post gives this example. But similar instances dont seem to happen in Britain where the moslem community is much more concentrated and withdrawn from the community at large and thus this cloistered environment seems to breed a sense of comfort. The fact that a fellow moslem's wouldnt snitch on the terrorist elements withing their community even though their nation's security might compramized and thus feel free to go about their business un-hindered.
This is what is happening and that is why teenage kids have the ability not only to make bombs and carry out a plan but also the motivation to go and blow themselves up. The amount of resources, information, planning, support from others and more importantly hate they must have had to carry out such an act is a sure measure of the true effectiveness of the "moslem peace campaign".

Remeber, people will judge you by the results you acheive, just like in any other situation and if you fail to deliver you must be prepared for the flak.

I won't claim it to be an natural reaction at all, they will still be terrorists just like the Islamic terrorists we have today.

Couldnt the rest of us claim then that "the other side is hardly innocent" like what you claimed in your previous post, when they blow up a mosque or behead imams on TV ?
If the reaction to the cartoons is any indication, I am sure, there would be fatwas on every Western country for "failing" to do anything about this. But sadly we in the west dont have our mullahs able to send out fatwas and call for suicide bombers in retaliation, instead we send out the military and try to bring the people responsible before a court of law.

Given up?

I mean "you" as in YOU. A one man show is nothing, when you have mobs-a million strong baying for western blood !

What makes you think I haven't done so already? Infact what makes think no Muslims have done so already?

The link above is actualy an american-moslem, as in an American first and moslem second, thus showing allegiance to the US and its values.

Why should I think you have done something like this ? Why should I think moslems are doing this? There hasnt been any magical drop in terrorism nor has there been any news where moslem leaders have turned over their own to the police as terrorists! Why should I think any different of you ?

Every country has its own way of trying to reduce it but that doesn't mean they can stop it because crime will happen anyway. Does that mean they failed?

Well if crime keeps increasing and despite the "attempts" it goes unchecked then obviously it is a failure. Similarly, the moslem communities attempts are failures and have not checked or reduced the levels of terrorism in the world!
In the West where there is pressure on the moslem community to conform because we have the FBI, DHS, NSA etc keeping tabs on them to make them confrom to civilization but in the moslem nations there is no such pressure and thus they not only actively support but also celebrate the acheivements of terrorists!!

Bahrain Muslims show support for UK victims.

As I said, I take your word in good faith but these protests are more about showing "others" that islam isnt a "terrorist organization" rather than reflecting internally on the community level. These protests, as I have said earlier, are more a credibilty campaign than a drive to deal with terrorism.

If you wanna see what Muslims are doing, visits their sites like Muslim news or Muslimfortoday etc. Sites that are dedicated to reporting everyday news about Muslims wheter insificting or otherwise. News that never makes it into CNN or Fox unless its Muslims burning flags or killing someone somewhere.

If it makes you happy I can show you moslems burning flags on BBC, SKY news and I bet a thousand others. There is no shortage of the the outlets other than CNN and fox that show moslems burning flags etc. Obviously every community party cant make headlines on BBC but millions of moslems rioting and torching embassies does ! Thats just the way it works, the multitude wins always. Maybe if the multitude is some islamic country were protesting against radicals in their country then it would indeed make headlines and be appreciated as well but when the majority are tourching places you cant expect any better.

Originally posted by Blaine91555
Regarding Palestinian groups: “Freedom fighters” do not strap on bombs and kill innocents, only terrorists do that. To justify their actions by pointing a finger at others perceived offenses makes you an accomplice and by association a terrorist. If my neighbor offends me I go after them not their children. To do so would be the act of a madman.
If you think you are going to get rewarded with virgins in heaven for blowing up innocents – I’ve got a bridge I’d like to sell you. If there is an actual Hell, that’s where all terrorists are really going.

Ffirst of all, it really makes me sick when self-centered ignorant american preaches others, second, Please Mr. Blaine , try to read these quotes from "THE ISRAEL LOBBY AND U.S. FOREIGN POLICY" working paper by  John J. Mearsheimer andStephen M. Walt .

In fact, this argument is not a compelling moral justification either. Palestinians have used terrorism against their Israeli occupiers, and their willingness to attack innocent civilians is wrong. This behavior is not surprising, however, because the Palestinians believe they have no other way to force Israeli concessions. As former Prime Minister Barak once admitted, had he been born a Palestinian, he “would have joined
a terrorist organization.” Finally, we should not forget that the Zionists used terrorism when they were in a similarly weak position and trying to obtain their on state. Between 1944 and 1947, several Zionist organizations used terrorist bombings to drive the British from Palestine, and took the lives of many innocent civilians along the way. Israeli terrorists also murdered U.N. mediator Count Folke Bernadotte in 1948, because they opposed his proposal to internationalize Jerusalem. Nor were the perpetrators of these acts isolated extremists: the leaders of the murder plot were eventually granted amnesty by the Israeli government and one of them was elected to the Knsset. Another terrorist leader, who approved the murder but was not tried, was future Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir. Indeed, Shamir openly argued that “neither Jewish ethics nor Jewish tradition can disqualify terrorism as a means of combat.” Rather, terrorism had “a great part to play … in our war against the occupier [Britain].” If the Palestinians’ use of terrorism is morally reprehensible today, so was Israel’s reliance upon it in the past, and thus one cannot justify U.S. support for Israel on the grounds that its past conduct was morally superior.

 

This same scholarship also reveals that the creation of Israel in 
1947‐48 involved explicit acts of ethnic cleansing, including executions, 
massacres, and rapes by Jews.   Furthermore, Israel’s subsequent 
conduct towards its Arab adversaries and its Palestinian subjects has often been brutal, belying any claim to morally superior cond uct.  Between 1949 
and 1956, for example, Israeli security forces killed between 2,700 and 
5000 Arab infiltrators, the overwhelming majority of them unarmed.  The 
IDF conducted numerous cross‐border raids against its neighbors 
in the early 1950s, and though these actions were portrayed as defensive
 responses, they were actually part of a broader effort to 
expand Israel’s borders.  Israel’s expansionist ambitions also led it to join 
Britain and France in attacking Egypt in 1956, and Israel withdrew from the lands it had conquered only in the face of intense  U.S. pressure. 45    The IDF also murdered hundreds of Egyptian prisoners‐of‐war in both 
the 1956 and 1967 wars.  In 1967, it expelled between 100,000 and 260,000 Palestinians from the newly‐conquered West Bank, and  drove
 80,000 Syrians from the Golan Heights.  It was also complicit in the 
massacre of 700 innocent Palestinians at the Sabra and Shatila refugee 
camps following its invasion of Lebanon in 1982, and an Israeli 
investigatory commission found then‐Defence Minister Sharon 
“personally responsible” for these atrocities Israeli personnel have 
tortured  numerous Palestinian prisoners, systematically humiliated and
 inconvenienced Palestinian civilians, and used force indiscriminately against them on numerous occasions.  During the First Intifida  (1987‐1991), 
for example, the IDF distributed truncheons to its troops and encouraged 
them to break the bones of Palestinian protestors.  The Swedish “Save the Children” organization estimated that “23,600 to 29 ,900 children required 
medical treatment for their beating injuries in the first two years of the
 intifida,” with nearly one‐third sustaining broken bones.  Nearly one‐third of the beaten children were aged ten and under.� ��   Israel’s response
 to the Second Intifida (2000‐2005) has been even more violent,
 l eading Ha’aretz to declare that “the IDF … is turning
 into a killing machine whose efficiency is awe‐inspiring, yet shocking.”
  The IDF fired one million bullets in the first days of the uprising, which is
 far from a measured response.  Since then, Israel has killed 3.4 
Palestinians for every Israeli lost, the majority of whom have been innocent bystanders; the ratio of Palestinian to Israeli childr en killed is even higher
 (5.7 to 1).  Israeli forces have also killed several foreign peace activists, 
including a 23 year‐old American woman crushed by an 
Israeli bulldozer in March 2003.

  

Does your american tv news channels in alaska show these Israeli terrorist acts? so please , next time before preaching others, read history, and try to find objective sources, not your typical jewish american, zionist or Israeli sources.   

We are free because our ancestors got “mad as hell” and they would not “put up with it anymore”. They put their lives on the line and spilled their blood to earn their freedom. Freedom does not come without a price. If Muslims want to be free, you will have to make the same sacrifices and fight for what you want. No one else is going to do it for you. Stop looking for the mote in others eyes and get the giant log out of yours..

Ohh...you mean your cowboy grandfathers who slaughtered millions of native americans and stole their land by using most inhumane and brutal methods in history....are you proud of what your great ancestors did to earn your so-called freedom? no wonder that 99% of white americans pro israeli barbaric atrocities in palestine.

If Muslims in general want to leap out of the dark ages,..

Dark ages..I want to remind you that arabs and muslims built and lived
al-hambra palaces in Andalucia in spain for more than 800 years , when your ancestors were living in caves and didn't have bathrooms, so they used to do it under trees and wiped their butts with stones. every civilization has its life cycle.

you will have to declare an internal war on terrorism. You will have to do it yourselves. All others can do is hold evil at bay. We can not change something internally we are not a part of. ..

first, you stop your atrocities in palestine, iraq, afganistan, chechnya...etc. then, stop using double-standards and hypocracy when you shape your foreign policy. return palestinian occupied land and give them their legitimate rights, then you can see a big change. it is your move, not arabs or muslims, because you are the agressors and you occupied their land.

RE: DANA2006


"""""you mean your cowboy grandfathers who slaughtered millions of native americans and stole their land by using most inhumane and brutal methods in history....are you proud of what your great ancestors did to earn your so-called freedom? no wonder that 99% of white americans pro israeli barbaric atrocities in palestine. """"

It is the hieght of ignorance to use this as a defence of a people that are the defenition of uncivilized barbarians in every sense of the word. Every people had to kill the indiginous people to get there land. Americans, italians, greeks, japanese, Spain, several african countries, and India, and several middle eastern countries. It's over with, people only bring it up when they've run out of idea's, and there ignorance has made them desperate.

"""""""The IDF fired one million bullets in the first days of the uprising, which is far from a measured response. Since then, Israel has killed 3.4
Palestinians for every Israeli lost"""""

They should, your blowing them up in there land, and I don't care when you lost it, if it was ever yours or not, it's done, OVER, stop pretending it's still yours and blowing up innocent people because it is meaningless, you only hurt yourself. If the native americans decided to start doing this, we would kill every last man woman and child of there race, I garuantee it. Isreal should do the same, but WE hold them off from doing it. The jews don't run this country no matter what the koran tells you, WE run isreal, they exist because we allow them too, we are the only thing that keeps them there without global conflict. So grow up, get over it, take the country there willing to give you and make it great, if you jsut stopped being animals and took the country you could work on being an amazing country, with a great people, but instead you reject peace in favor of violence, like your people always have. Before islam destroyed the middle east, there was a time when the arab men and women lived in equality, and there mathamaticians were considered teh finest in the world, and there people were considered wise and fair, there knowledge was sought by the west and teh great indian nation that existed at the same time. At this point in time, if there wasn't documented history of this fact, I would refuse to believe they were even capable of stopping killing themselves to achieve this, and it makes me sad. I would love to go to egypt and to the place where the sumerians lived, but I will never be able to go there in my life, thanks to people like you. The people that do this have destroyed a once great people, a once great nation, and have robbed the world of possible great minds that could have given us breakthroughs in who knows what. Wells trap a bomb on a 15 year old, he doesnt have to grow up and cure cancer, he can screw his virgins in hell.


Edit: Spelling


[edit on 4-19-2006 by Ruggeder]