Islamic Injustice on ATS

The problem isn't religion, it's the people. Someone mentioned African Christian, and muslim terrorist's. It isn't Christianity or Islam that is the problem it is the people. A large portion of African's will always want to fight and kill each other brutally forever, the same with the middle east, and to an extent, eastern europe. They have been doing so for millenia, and it will never stop. Now half of you have already said I'm a racist, and have stopped reading, this is for those that are still reading.

I have worked with and know many muslims (and Christians), both from Qatar(the majority), Serbia (a good freind) and Egypt, who spent 10 years in Kuwait(ex-GF). Now is this everyone from those countries, of course not, but it represents a very real perspective into these countries, a real perspective from people that have lived there and know the situation.

Let's start with Serbia, now my freind was born in serbia speaks serbian, etc. His parents spent almost all there lives there, and only speak serbian except hello and goodbye, which is still kinda garbled. They live in a Serbian part of town representitive of a large section of Serbia, both muslim and christian. Now he and his parents are great, however, I started a conversation about the recent troubles there, and there it began, three normally rational people, who had completly lost there mind. Everything they said was irrational, hatefull, biased, and wrong for the most part. They represent the christian serbs. They not only agreed with the muslim slaughter in there country but participated in it, much to my shock. They were normal in every way, except about this one topic. Further talk lead to my understanding of there problem, they can't let go. Even "injustices" of 100 or more years, they are as angry about it as if it just happened. That is the linking thread between all these people, not the religion.

All the people I've met from Qatar are nice, freindly, respectfull and good people, except about jews. They all want the distruction of all jews. Now whether or not isreal is right or wrong put it aside and think about that. They are an excellent, great people that i enjoy working with, they are hard working, generally intelligent in there jobs, and work to excell. But there pointless scathing hatred of jews is there undoing, the fact that they willingly tell anyone who will listen about how the ywish every jew would be exterminated should be troubling. now they don't say this at the lunch hour with everyone listening, just in private when I brought the situation up for an opinion. Half of the 8 people I asked, couldn't even explain why they wanted them all dead, just that they knew in there heart that they should be, unquestionably destroyed.

On to Egypt and Kuwait. My Ex-GF was egyption, but went to elementary school in Kuwait, but Australia for the rest and America for college, obviously, or I wouldn't have met her. She didn't hate jews, nor wanted them dead for no reason she could ascertain. In fact she gad a hard time here since we were in college in 2001, SEPT 2001, a difficult time for middle easterners in America, and for some reason if you recall. Now she was attractive, had no accent fo either australian or arabic, of which she spoke fluently, and used her australian passport since she had dual citizenship. Now, why did she not hate jews? She was muslim, followed it's tenents, Egyptians are more moderate then most middle eastern countries by definition, but they have there huge share of insanity. Is it because of australia? I think were hitting on something. She went to a country that has the opposite mentality of the regions and countries listed above. They can take a joke, they have free(for the most part) speech, and can LET THINGS GO. If I punch an Austalian guy in the face, he'll probably swing back, be pissed for an hour, and then we could BOTH MOVE ON! In the regions I listed they start a blood fued that lasts until both families are dead, no matter how many of themselves are churned into the blades. In post war Japan and Germany, they LET IT GO, they lost, they moved on, and both countries are a million times better for it. Look at Japan, after the war they went from a decidely un modern way unto super modern power and economy, and a great place to visit if you haven't been, see a movie in Shibuya, buy some video games in Akhihabara.

It is the fundemental beliefs, not the religion, that warps a great number of people in these regions, not all of course, but enough to get a dominating number, and turn opinion and the outcomes of these countries to war, death and terrorism.

I apologize for the length of this post, but I feel passionatley about not only the innocent people of these places but people everywhere affected by them, and the innocents that are taken into these activities. You could argue that the innocents should stand up, bush wars as much as them, and various other points, some would be incredibly valid, but you have to look beyond the occasional warmonger, they pop up everywhere, but they are not allowed to breed and grow as in these regions. Every european, asian, and N. S. American country has thrown a warmonger out there, but they are quickly crushed and replaced by someone who works to correct the errors of occasional insanity.

I wish for change, here and abroad.

Edited for Grammar


[edit on 4-16-2006 by Ruggeder]

I'm sorry, but while this is a great thread, why should we bend over backwards for ONE "problem" everywhere? I mean, Comedy Central wouldn't even let them show Mohammed on South Park recently, for fear of causing riots, but they showed other religions in all kinds of twisted scenes. Why is it ok for Anit-American, Anti-Jewish, or Anti-< insert group here>, but making fun of Islam is Bad?

As Seekerof said, where is the outrage over the Anti-everything else that goes on around here? WHy just Islam?

[edit on 4/16/2006 by Zaphod58]

No, your topic works just fine in pointing out the hypocrisy of this so-called problem within ATS. You grab at one straw as the problem, while simply continuing to ignore the other problems directly associated with the one that you are covering with this topic. They go hand-in-hand, mate. You want the Islamic Injustices to stop, then stop the anti-American, the anti-Zionist, and the anti-whatever's rhetoric that produces those asserted Islamic Injustices. It is all cause and effect here--and to fix one, it requires the fixing of the others at the same time. What'cha think?

I see your angle, and I think I understand your beliefs. What I'm trying to do here is at the very least cool some of the rhetoric down. I see your angle that they all need addressed at the same time, but the research and "personal views" of doing such research on the WoT would prove to be incredibly difficult. So I chose one specific "anti" and focused my attention on that. I don't read enough of WoT to even know what the hell you guys are talking about anymore. But everytime I wander in there, mostly on accident, I read some garbage about how Iranians need to be bombed, or the filthy islamic terrorists are blowing eachother up.. cant you leave out islamic? Because he by no way represents the religion of Islam.

That's all I'm asking mate. I don't have the time nor assets to do enough philosophical study on the seperate "anti" leans on the server. Way too much work there, and I doubt even you would tackle a project that big.

So please, don't come at me because I'm not "fixing them all".. atleast I'm trying?

I thought that I had read that the militant muslims are using the POOR as recruits to their cause. The youth see no hope of being rich so they join something else that gives them power.

Gangs in America and militant muslims are the same to me and recruit the same people. Those that feel powerless and abandoned, use the "us vs them" metality to give these people a place and the illusion of power. Violence is the great equalizer since a successful person is not going to throw everything away by blowing themself up or doing a drive by shooting.

You do three things with gangs: educate, eradicate, eliminate. Explain the fallacy of their logic and eradicate the love they are not feeling. The only other option is to eliminate the gang member and the leadership that promotes this cancer.

A true revolution has logic behind it. If Islam truly wants the West to leave them alone or respect them, you don't blow things up...YOU CUT OFF THE OIL.

CUT OFF THE OIL and you will get a dialogue. These terrorist acts are worthless bravado and not a plan that will cause positive change.

If they want a world only full of Islam then they will die. I won't submit to it. I would rather nuke a billion people than give up freedom of choice...I don't care if all of the US, Canada, Mexico, and the Middle East were layed to waste...I would rather die than have to accept another's version of God and the chains they will put on me. Now I'm the terrorist and the pendulum swings the other way...Militant Islam can never win if they want a war. Some people fear death so much that they think a billion deaths is too much, I don't. I am willing to allow Islam to exist, but if Islam is not allowing non-muslims to exist then we have evil at its most obvious.

Atomic,

No doubt that poverty plays a part. Of the 19 9/11 attackers most had some college at least. They also came from middle income or higher familys. Hell osama is a millionaire, and many others are far from poor. I am sure they do recriut from the poor but the islamist radicals are by far pverty stricken. arafat was a multi-millionaire and murder and mayhem dosen't come cheap. I do see that the palestinians who blow themselves up can leave their familys 20k american dollars because muslims the world over donate for that specific cause. The only thing seeminly poor about the terrorists is their spirtuality.

Text Black I live in a country where 90% of the population is islam! One Screwup could lead to insatnt death. I LOve America, In fact I Support it even if it invades my country and occupies us for the sake of Freedom. Islam, its not all that extreme here unlike in the land of hairy people a.k.a Arabia (not including Persian and american allies) (no offense) Its the terrorists that make islam look bad, they use islam to mess with Rich Countries just because they think that their opinion must be expressed through the use of words like "infidelity" etc. and acts of mass murder. I dont hate MUslims cuz all of my cousins are muslim. So if Being Anti-American is wrong than why isn't being anti-muslim wrong. i hate my country because we burned American Flags when Operation Iraqi Oildom began. I hate those anti american protesters they can just********** get a life! P.s I dont hate Islam My cousins are all muslims ( sorry for some mistakes i hiding from my teacher i'm in a school gotta hurry!

Sorry Spammed Besides i got caught by my teacher damn! Detention noooo!

[edit on 17-4-2006 by Gembelindo]

However, there's one big problem occuring. Do you remember the Danish cartoons, which caused such an exaggerated protest among the muslim community. It was a Danish-Muslim Imam whom especially travelled to several Arab countries, with the purpose to increase the anti-western feelings among the muslim communities. (the cartoons had been published months before it really became an issue)

What was the reaction towards the cartoons? Spiritually burning flags (it's seems it has become a normal muslim ritual nowadays), damaging of foreign consulates, and not only Danish properties.

Let's take an opposite example. With regard to the Danish cartoons. A Iranian newspaper held a contest, which was about drawing the best holocaust cartoon. Some were quite insulting, such as the Dutch jewish girl Anne Frank sleeping with Adolf Hitler.

What was the Western and Jewish response to this? We accepted this, even though most of us didn't like it, however no violent issues against muslims or their properties.

There is a gap between western concern over anti-Semitism and indifference to the denigration of Islam. While the Danish government claims that the publication of the caricatures falls under freedom of opinion as guaranteed by the Danish Constitution, would it respond with the same claim if a researcher had published a report on the Holocaust challenging the official opinion imposed by Jewish organizations?"

take an example - Right-wing British historian David Irving pleaded guilty to charges of denying the Holocaust and was sentenced to three years in prison . Irving has been in custody since his arrest in November on charges stemming from two speeches he gave in Austria in 1989 in which he was accused of denying the Nazis’ extermination of 6 million Jews.

Anti-Semitism is unacceptable, and the Danish caricatures would not have been published if they had depicted a Jewish rabbi, for example. Jews have succeeded in criminalizing any critical mention of Jews as anti-Semitism, subjecting anyone who engages in this to harsh punishments. on the contrary to muslims, they don't have the power as jews to criminalize and punish anyone who says anti-arab, anti islam stereotypes.

In addition, the Iranian newspaper contest, about drawing the best holocaust cartoon. was a reaction to the whole western world's encouraging response to draw more insulting cartoons of muslims. the west should expect if they start rediculing other nation's relegion , that they will be treated the same. muslims know that most westerners are sechulars and don't give a damn about their christian relegion, but it's a taboo for them to say one word about judaism or jews, so Iranians made fun of the holocaust.

In my opinion most muslims are just too easily offended. They'd rather protest against terror and say: ''we don't want this'' instead of demonstrating against some stupid cartoons

The moral of this story is that Muslims place theirselves in such a position, they should actively fight against terrorism and stop supporting it.

.

Instead of advising muslims of fighting terrorism, sit down and think for a moment, why muslims are becoming terrorists, and don't give me the usual silly excuses , western politics and media mention all the time, that muslims are jealous of western wealth (bin laden is a millionaire), also, that muslims are very bad and bloody people (you can't depict a whole nation to be bad), no one believes this western crap.

If you are so sensitive about physical violence, then you should realize that the real reason behind terrorism , because, Israeli occupation army is slaughtering Palestinians for the last 50 years , and Americans kill Muslims and Arabs in Afghanistan and Iraq, repeating the same lies of destroyin mass destruction weopons and fighting terrorism, and they are planning to do the same in Iran and syria.

Personally I am against intolerance in any form... be it legislative, religious or otherwise.

And ya know what as a white guy without a bachelors degree I feel oppressed. You might scoff you might say I'm just a closet kkk supporter, but at the end of the day the most maligned hated and discriminated against race in most countries is your average white kid.

Some would say we deserve it as a sorta ancestral karmic balance... I have this to say about that. Racism is wrong no matter who does it in the name of what god, political position, or sense of historical fairness.

Lets face it... point blank!!

ALL of our ancestors took any advantage they could against anyone who didn't look, talk, act, or worship like them.

Now we are supposedly beyond that yet we enact reverse discriminatory policies that still make one race suffer for the benefit to the benefit of another. On an intellectual level I understand survivor guilt, but personally it's deeply hurtful to know I can't get a job at burger king because I'm not "brown" enough.

In my personal life and professionally I would never dare to hire help or pick friends based on skin pigment. In truth I've come to value the view ALL ethnicities bring to the table as long as they are as pragmatic as I am.

the funny thing is it's not anglo's perpetuating at this point. if anything we get the raw deal these days. Yet this is somehow looked upon as more fair by a guilt ridden noblesse oblige media as more acceptable.

How is that more fair?

Are we any less color or creed blind than we were before? Only the deluded think so.


So to all of you rational people out there I'll say this, Hate is hate whether your skin is black brown white or otherwise. And discrimination is universal wherever preferential law is allowed to sprout. An even playing field never hobbles one race or another.

PS: as to the terrorism thing... By nature islam is prone to it by the tone of it's holy book. Should we make excuses for said fanatical nut jobs?

Absolutelly not

Are some getting raw deals? Sure but the koran doesn't give us much wiggle room to accomodate them without surrendering totally.

Are we wrong to show force rather than make concessions? Good freaking GOODNESS NO!!! our country is founded on the idea of never accepting bullying as a legitimate tactic. Plainly put if Islam wants to survive it'll tone down it's message or it'll destroy any vestige of what's left of the american ideal. Because as is the american ideal of freedom and liberty to live as you choose (no matter how curtailled it is these days from within) is a diametrically opposed force to the goals of even moderate islam in some ways.

Enlightened rule and the idea of the infidel or the heretic are fundamentally at odds. THey can either take the position of catholocism and condemn unbelievers to post life judgement or they can remain a justifiable enemy.

In a world that is shades of gray islam has made itself a plain out black enemy of self determination, the consequences they reap are on them, and further their internal extremists are theirs to deal with if they wish to interact in modern society. Modern society would react just as harshly to a renewed catholic inquisition.

This isn't about tolerance it's about human freedom to determine one's own course in life



[edit on 17-4-2006 by astral_ice]

Originally posted by QuietSoul
I read some garbage about how Iranians need to be bombed, or the filthy islamic terrorists are blowing eachother up.. cant you leave out islamic? Because he by no way represents the religion of Islam.

Hmm how can you possibly leave out the word Islamic when all these acts are carried out in the name of Islam. Sure you can say the Qu'ran does not say this, however there are plenty of mullah's, imam's etc who preach from the Qu'ran and use the words to incite terrorism.

So when a terrorist act is committed in the name of Islam, it is entirely appropriate to call them Islamic terrorists, just as terrorists attacking the British in Palestine were rightly called Jewish terrorists, or people who blow up abortion clinics in the US in the name of god are Christian terrorists.

You cannot seperate Islam and Moslems performing terrorists acts under the banner of Islam - simply illogical.

It is up to the Moslem peoples to out a stop to this terrorism, something it seems not many are willing to do. Actions always speak louder than words.

Originally posted by dana2006

There is a gap between western concern over anti-Semitism and indifference to the denigration of Islam. While the Danish government claims that the publication of the caricatures falls under freedom of opinion as guaranteed by the Danish Constitution, would it respond with the same claim if a researcher had published a report on the Holocaust challenging the official opinion imposed by Jewish organizations?"

I don't agree with you. First of all, people denying the Holocaust are totally insane, people claiming the opposite should visit Europe and see some real evidence of it.

Second, what you mentioned already happened The Iranian government claims the holocaust is just a Jewish fairly tail. What was the Jewish or Israeli response? At least not a Barbarian action against innocent people or their properties.
I haven't seen any jews in the country I live burning Irani flags, I neither have seen them destroying consulates of Islamitic countries. Besides, Anne-Frank was a Dutch jew, so for some people over here it's specially painful, but they accept it. And why shouldn't they?

We're living in a democratic country, where we are allowed to say what we want. If you don't agree with something you've the possibility of filing a lawsuit against the person in case, not some kind of Barbarian riot. And this would be the response of Jewish organizations in Denmark most probably.

In the country I live it's allowed to draw whatever you want. During the '60s a famous Dutch person openly told Jesus is a donkey. Of couse this created anger among the christian community (which is quite big) within our country. However, the commonity never used violence against him.

Originally posted by dana2006
take an example - Right-wing British historian David Irving pleaded guilty to charges of denying the Holocaust and was sentenced to three years in prison . Irving has been in custody since his arrest in November on charges stemming from two speeches he gave in Austria in 1989 in which he was accused of denying the Nazis’ extermination of 6 million Jews.

That's what we call the legal system, we're allowed, as mentioned above, to file a lawsuit. The judge or jury will take the final decision.

Originally posted by dana2006
Anti-Semitism is unacceptable, and the Danish caricatures would not have been published if they had depicted a Jewish rabbi, for example. Jews have succeeded in criminalizing any critical mention of Jews as anti-Semitism, subjecting anyone who engages in this to harsh punishments. on the contrary to muslims, they don't have the power as jews to criminalize and punish anyone who says anti-arab, anti islam stereotypes.

Why would a western news paper draw a cartoon of a Jewish rabbi? A newspaper has the purpose to inform and discuss current issues. The main current issue is terrorism, isn't it true that terrorist hide behind the Islam? It is. Again and again, the Danish Imam had also the opportunity to file a lawsuit agains the Danish newspaper, instead of exeggerating the whole thing by spreading the word intentionally. Besides, there are many muslims supporting terrorism, just visit the local forums, such as the Morroc forum and you'll see.

Originally posted by dana2006
Instead of advising muslims of fighting terrorism, sit down and think for a moment, why muslims are becoming terrorists, and don't give me the usual silly excuses , western politics and media mention all the time, that muslims are jealous of western wealth (bin laden is a millionaire), also, that muslims are very bad and bloody people (you can't depict a whole nation to be bad), no one believes this western crap.

I think you should watch the western media more carefully, the media in the country I live never mentioned what you currently do. They neither tell us muslims are 'bad' people... Furthermore, most muslims are poor... especially compared to western countries.

You shouldn't try to tell me crap, it were muslim terrorists crashing planes into the WTC full of innocent people. How could you ever keep citizens responsible for what their government does? Haven't you seen the response of many muslims after it happened, especially in Palastina. They were actually celebrating it. Do you want us to say, ''ah nice, they celebrate this, we love those people''.

Haven't heard of Theo van Gogh? Killed by a radical muslim because he said The prophet is a sheep #er. Is it a reason to kill someone?
Many politicians over here are surrounded by body guards because they are treatened by radical muslims.

Originally posted by dana2006
If you are so sensitive about physical violence, then you should realize that the real reason behind terrorism , because, Israeli occupation army is slaughtering Palestinians for the last 50 years , and Americans kill Muslims and Arabs in Afghanistan and Iraq, repeating the same lies of destroyin mass destruction weopons and fighting terrorism, and they are planning to do the same in Iran and syria.

I admit here, I don't agree with how the Israeli government acts, but Palestinians do exactly the same. It's not an excuse, but don't do as if the Palastinians are such a peaceful people.

You can't compare Afghanistan with Iraq, and again I agree, Iraq is a pointless war.



[edit on 17-4-2006 by Mdv2]

What is the difference between two people who adhere to the same faith, yet justify wholly different actions in the name of that shared faith? The heart of the individual. What is the difference between the hearts of two individuals who are both born innocent and knowing nothing of the world, yet mature into two wholly different hearts? That which the individual perceives and experiences. What is the difference between those that condemn the heart that matures in the midst of hatred and oppression and thus expresses the same when ripe, and those that pity or seek to heal it? Love and forgiveness.

Regardless of faith, nationality, gender, belief, or ways, no one need earn my love and respect. I love all and respect all simply by virtue of their existing in the same world as me, because I recognize that justifying the alternative in the case of an individual justifies the alternative for all, and forfeits my right to say otherwise. This may make me a fool, and it may mean I will be taken advantage of in life, but at least I can live with myself.

I don't know what more I could say about religion than the above.

Originally posted by astral_ice

In a world that is shades of gray islam has made itself a plain out black enemy of self determination, the consequences they reap are on them, and further their internal extremists are theirs to deal with if they wish to interact in modern society. Modern society would react just as harshly to a renewed catholic inquisition.

This isn't about tolerance it's about human freedom to determine one's own course in life

 As Ben‐Gurion told Nahum Goldmann, president of the World Jewish
 Congress, “If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms 
with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. . . . We come from Israel, but two thousand years ago, and what is� �that to them?  There has 
been anti-semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault?
 They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country.  
Why should they accept that?”

It is the same thing with the whole west. western governments, specially the US, interfere with arab and muslim matters.West occupy their land, kill and slaughter arab and muslim civilians, in the name of protecting western values and living standards ( what about arab and muslim values and living standards-how selfish). stole their land and gave it as a gift to jews, because germans genocide them. Insult muslim relegious figures and use anti arab, anti islam stereotypes in most hollywood films. exploit their natural resources and force them to buy western junk weapons that can't harm a fly , which cost arabs hundreds of billions every year.

western governments' wrong policies in the middle east created terrorism in the world. did you hear about islamic terrorism before Israel's ocupation of palestine or US- gulf war? return the occupied land of palestenians and Iraqis to them and stop interfering in arab an muslem matters, you will not give an excuse to any extremist to attak you. Western Injustice and
tyranny create terrorism. look at what Russians are doing in Chechnya for more than 300 hundred years. they commited more than 3 holocausts for chechens, genocide millions of innocent chechens in 3 centuries, for pure selfish reasons. chechens are not russians and never been russians, they are muslims not orthodox christians. chechnya was an independent country for thousands of years ago, even before the creation of the so called russia. Western governments knows about russian atrocities, they know that russians are criminals and chechens deserve their independence, but they shut their ears and eyes and pretend that everything is perfect in that region. why ? because westerners are hypocrites, and hate muslims. if chechens were jews, you would've seen different reaction from westerners, unfortunatly, chechen are not jews to earn their rights. do you blame chechen when they become terrorists?

Originally posted by Mdv2

I don't agree with you. First of all, people denying the Holocaust are totally insane, people claiming the opposite should visit Europe and see some real evidence of it.

why? where is the freedom of opinion? why is it a crime to deny it? because you consider jews "the chosen people by God" and the other nations , like chechens, iraqis, palestenians, who are slaughtered by russians, americans and israelis, are not human beings. Visit chechnya, palestine and Iraq and see what these 3 criminal governments are doing to these countries, with the approval of majority of their people .

[Second, what you mentioned already happened The Iranian government claims the holocaust is just a Jewish fairly tail. What was the Jewish or Israeli response? At least not a Barbarian action against innocent people or their properties.
I haven't seen any jews in the country I live burning Irani flags, I neither have seen them destroying consulates of Islamitic countries. Besides, Anne-Frank was a Dutch jew, so for some people over here it's specially painful, but they accept it. And why shouldn't they?

Jews in your country don't need to burn any flag , because their slaves (american) are planning to flattening Iran with nuclear bombs very soon to pleas their jewish masters.

and if you consider burning danish flag a barbarian action, what do you consider killing palestenians and flattening their villages and cities by israeli peaceful defence army, every day?

and if , for some people in Denmark , it was painful to see Iranian cartoons of the dutch jew,Anne-Frank . imagine how painful it was for more than 1 billion muslims to see these stupid danish cartoons of their great prophet. do you compare a jewish -danish lady to the prophet of one of the greates relegions in the world?

We're living in a democratic country, where we are allowed to say what we want.

do you mean that democracy in the west MEANS to be rude and disrespectful to others.? SHAME ON YOU.

If you don't agree with something you've the possibility of filing a lawsuit against the person in case, not some kind of Barbarian riot. And this would be the response of Jewish organizations in Denmark most probably.

Ofcourse, you can say anything, on one condition, if it is not against jews. you can file a lawsuit against anything, but only lawsuits against anti-semitics , can win.

Why would a western news paper draw a cartoon of a Jewish rabbi?

yes it is alogical question, but the right question is: who dares in west to draw a cartoon of a jewish rabbi? only jewish cartoonists are allowed to do that, the others will be sued by jews and accused of anti-semetism.

isn't it true that terrorist hide behind the Islam?

no it is not true , the west depectid islam with terrorism, you never link Judaism with jewish continous terrorism in palestine, you never linked chritianity with irish and basque terrorism?

You shouldn't try to tell me crap, it were muslim terrorists crashing planes into the WTC full of innocent people. How could you ever keep citizens responsible for what their government does? Haven't you seen the response of many muslims after it happened, especially in Palastina. They were actually celebrating it. Do you want us to say, ''ah nice, they celebrate this, we love those people''.

west should expect more crashing planes and bombings, if they don't stop quickly their atrocities in arab ind islamic countries, and above all that, to end the israeli occupation for palestine and return for palestinians their complete land and rights.

We keep western citizens responsible for what their government do, because, the majority approve their governmet's wrong doings and don't do anythong to stop its injustiste for arabs and muslims.

and who told you that palestinians are yearning for western false love, keep it for yourself and for the "chosen people", we don't need your tainted love.

Haven't heard of Theo van Gogh? Killed by a radical muslim because he said The prophet is a sheep #er. Is it a reason to kill someone?
Many politicians over here are surrounded by body guards because they are treatened by radical muslims.

If you are a real man, and somebody told you that you are sheep#er, what would you do to him, kiss him on his cheek.
I don't feel sorry for Van Gogh, he brought this fate for himself, let him be a lesson for others. who told him to insult such a great man like prophet Muhammed , for me ,prophet Nuhammed's shoe worth the whole western fake cicilization. the west who doesn't respect anything in the name of freedom of speech -crap. you will live in fear if you don't stop insulting and hurting other people, it is a valuable lesson for you. BEHAVE.

I admit here, I don't agree with how the Israeli government acts, but Palestinians do exactly the same. It's not an excuse, but don't do as if the Palastinians are such a peaceful people.

I found this response by Jesse on Tuesday, August 16th, 2005 at 10:30 am. to “A Study in Hypocrisy” -site, please read it, may be it provides you with some enlightenment.

"Why I have felt American Politicians are so full of it (hypocracy). We say we do not recognize terrorist states. What is Israel? After Chaim Weizemann, their first leader, every single one up to Netenyahu was either a convicted terrorist or a convicted war criminal. They used terrorism to create their state. They are a rogue nuclear country, but that seems to be OK with American politicians. They stole the nuclear technology from America, even were caught, yet nothing of significance or consequence happened. It seems OK for them to use modern military equipment to kill Arabs by the score, but we get upset because the Arabs are forced to utilize suicide bombers. Maybe if the Arabs had a super power GIVING them millions of dollars for weapons they might be able to resist differently. It bugs me to no end, the Jews deny Christ, but the Muslems honor him as one of the greatest of men. Why then do American Christians side with Jews? Yet in America you never get this in any books or news. Why? I wish there had been TV news coverage of when the Jews forced the Palestinians out of their lands. Zoom in as the Jewish commander gives the Arabs their terms, leave in one hour, then we open up with artillery, machine guns and tanks. Then you see the Arab, armed with a single shot hunting rifle from the late 1800s. They have lived in their village for over thousand years. He looks in dispair at his choices, fight and die, or leave with what they can carry. He has heard of what has happened to those that resisted. They are dead, and their villages are smoldering heaps of rubble. Where are the British? Will they come to their defense? Or this new organization, the United Nations? Wasn’t it created to prevent such things from happening? Then we flash a to see the sad trek of Palestinians marching away into the desert as the Jews blast their empty (we hope) village to pieces. What is to be their fate? Here we are 58 years later. They still long for the land of their heritage and ancestors. They haven’t given up. It is as much, if not more their land than an ancient claim that the Jews have. There are possibly some who have an ancestory that predates the time of Moses, or even Abraham. I don’t know what the future holds.
Left by Custer on February 18th, 2006".

Originally posted by QuietSoul
You guys need to understand that Islam isn't a Religion of Terror, its Terror using the religion of Islam. Please understand the difference guys. The anti-islamic lean to this forum is getting sickening offensive.

Thank you for saying this. I couldn't agree more. It isnt islam that is using terror, it is terror that is using islam.




Every day i am more and more suprised by not just people on this forums view toward islam, but also in the general world and media. It is truly begining to disgust me. 20 Years of progress (yes slow progress, but progress nonetheless) and in just a few years, we seem to have gone 50 years back.

Things I question about mohamed and Islam.
1) Mohamed felt possessed by the devil.
2) He was by any definition of decent democratic western law a paedophile.
3) Was above his own laws. you may have only 4 wives he had 12..if I remember.
4) He could not read or write, so his words are only word of mouth Chinese whispers and in any case all writings occurred after his death.
5) Allah was an ancient god worshipped by desert peoples. The name was nicked because god needed a name. (Puzzling as this so called allah is basically the same Abrahamic god that the Jews had already named..Why did it need another name??)
6) The Koran (however you spell it) was a conglomeration of several documents, the relevant scriptures used that supported the sponsor of the work....the originals were burned. Why?
7) IF allah is Yahweh / Jehovah why is his word in yet another language? The persons in the OT communicated with god who seems to be a Hebrew entity...why would it hundreds of years later want its word written in another language?
8) It is a racist and misogynist cult.

I trust no one that puts belief, before human rights, state, democracy whatever and Islamists must and do.
I have been there, done that and bought the T shirt.

They will always say that you misunderstand the texts because you cant read arabic or that the word doesn’t translate well into English or whatever. So they are saying that god decided to use a language that would confuse unbelievers in translation, or that you must learn the language. Learning the language is akin to conversion to the cult, which in my books is conquering without a war..perhaps that’s why its a "peaceful" religion.

These people will say one thing to your face and do something else behind your back. I have seen it. I have seen the most unhelpful and hateful person change their attitude just because you can speak the lingo. There is no species on the planet with a chip on their shoulder like Islamists.

They cannot self-police madras, temples etc because they can do no harm to their muslim brother. Which is nonsense anyway when it suits them. Look at the way the different factions are murdering each other in Iraq, because of a slight difference of opinion in who is more reverent. It is similar to the Christian factions years ago. I keep thinking Monty Pythons "Life of Brian" was a pretty accurate commentary. It is certainly worth more as a cult or belief IMHO. "Follow the Gourd".

"He’s not the messiah, he’s very naughty boy" was a comment made by Brians mum. It could equally apply to mohamed…..With or without cartoons.

Islamic injustice on ATS? What about unjust islam on the world?

Originally posted by shire19
And Muslims have taken another strategy as I already posted, they are trying to prevent radicalism that will eventually lead to terrorism.

Well, it hasnt been working in recent incindents are to be taken into consideration. In fact if it were not for the British governments intervention we would still be hearing about that radical British imam brainwashing people every Friday? If you wanted to curb radicalism why did the moslem community let him preach ? Why did so many attend his sermons ?
Also what is this strategy that you have taken exactly ? Stopping radicalism -how ? You claim that its not possible.

Enormous results? When the protests occured in 2003 it was against the war and it hardly made a dent.

A dent ? They have caused the Italians to move out for example . They have decreased support for the coalition at home and abroad. Moreover now, its the UN that wants the coaltion there rather than the coalition themselves.

Most of these conflicts happen to be occurring in the Middle-east hence the rise of Islamic terror.

A lot of christians have died due to 9/11, and other acts by islamic terrorism in the world have also effected so many other faiths do you see any retalitatory terrorist organizations forming ??
What do you think will happen when they do start forming ? Will you claim that this is just a natural reaction on their part and can the rest of us claim to be inncoent for letting this trend spread?

I don't see how they can be controlled, what can be done is cutting their recruitement line by swaying young Muslims from joining their cause and this is already happening around the world.

You obviously have given up!
You say that the moslem community has been trying to cut their recruitment line by swaying yound Moslems then how do you explain teenagers blowing themselves in subways, radical imams preaching the destruction of the west, the people torching embassies, beheading people on TV etc ?? Cant this be called failure ?
Why cant you accept that ?

You act as if I can actually do anything, I'm an ex-muslim and happen to live amongst a huge Muslim crowd here

You can because you are a moslem ! There was a member here on ATS from california that turned in a fellow moslem he saw preaching radicalizm at his mosque to the FBI, what makes you think that you wouldnt be able to do something similar by calling 999? Let me find the thread...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

How can you be ex-moslem ? Isnt death the penalty for those who leave islam according to the sharia ?

and Muslims here just like everyone else are trying to live their lives.

Well not everywhere !!

So tell me what are they meant to do besides set right those that are on the path to radicalism if they ever came accross any?

Like I said, no one can police a community better than the members of that community. It would be the duty of every community to curb activities from within that damage other communites because if you fail to do so, it is not only the individual that is to blame but the entire community for failing to do its duty. Will you let you drug dealers and brothels take over your neighbourhood ??

First you blame the Muslims for not doing anything and then when shown how they do protest against terrorism and do try to prevent others from joining these radical Muslims it's suddenly not enough? Thats ridicolous for it's better than nothing at all!

What attempts would you like to see from 1.5billion Muslims?

You have shown me nothing, rather you have told me that moslems have protested against terrorism and I have accepted it in good faith. You claim that they are doing this and that, but where are the results ? Nothing that you claim is being done by the moslem community against terrorists has actually produced any results on the ground. In fact if anything, since 9/11 there has been an increase in fundamentalist activity within the Western world by the moslem community. Thus the 7/11 bombings !

What difference do we seen when you claim to be doing something and when you are not ? There are still people in your communities willing to go blow themselves up and still people who see this as a glorious sacrifice and support those who want to blow themselves up.
When Salman Rashid writes a book there are people left, right and center issueing fatwas and the lot but there is no mention of a fatwa on Bin Laden or on Al-Zarqawi or any radical elements that the moslem community is so "desperately" trying to curb. I would think being responisible for some of the worst terrorist attacks in the history of mankind would be cause enough but apparently writing a book, Salman Rashdi has more people in the islamic community baying for his blood!

You know what I would like to see from the West? Withdraw all their troops from the middle-east, stop funding these dictators such as the Saudi regime. End all interventions in middle-eastern countries and see what happens.. Let them rely on each other for a change.

I dont know if you are aware of the fact or not, but the king of saudi Arabia, that is the Al-Saud family are some of the more "liberal" forces in Saudi Arabia. For if it wasnt for the Al-Saud family, the Wahaabi's would run amok in the region trying to turn it into some ultra orthadox Taliban style madness except on a much larger scale. Despite displeasing the large community of moslems by curbing terrorists and inturn sacrificing their own saftey they have still stuck it out by making fight terrorists on their soil. In fact they even promised bin-laden $2 billion if he would call off his jihad and make peace! Also the Al-Saud family rules saudi arabia only because the Saudi King is the sole custodian of the two holy mosques and thus rules the "holy land" !
Another point is that US troops entered Saudi Arabia only because the Saudi's asked for protection against Saddam husseins aggression and the failure of the Saudi Army.

You want to know what would happen if the west were to disengage from the middle-east. There would be a nuclear holocaust that would make Hiroshima look sissy ! The only reason this has not happened is because the west is there to contain the situation time and time again. It was due to the wests disengagement after the afghan war that Al-qaeda was able to dominate the region and spread its extreemist roots to africa. Had the West taken a more pro-active role earlier in the day, from the very beginning we wouldnt be discussing why moslem feel hurt when people accuse them of supporting terrorists !

Originally posted by Allah the moon god

Things I question about mohamed and Islam.
1) Mohamed felt possessed by the devil.
2) He was by any definition of decent democratic western law a paedophile.
3) Was above his own laws. you may have only 4 wives he had 12..if I remember.
4) He could not read or write, so his words are only word of mouth Chinese whispers and in any case all writings occurred after his death.
5) Allah was an ancient god worshipped by desert peoples. The name was nicked because god needed a name. (Puzzling as this so called allah is basically the same Abrahamic god that the Jews had already named..Why did it need another name??)
6) The Koran (however you spell it) was a conglomeration of several documents, the relevant scriptures used that supported the sponsor of the work....the originals were burned. Why?
7) IF allah is Yahweh / Jehovah why is his word in yet another language? The persons in the OT communicated with god who seems to be a Hebrew entity...why would it hundreds of years later want its word written in another language?
8) It is a racist and misogynist cult.


Okay so you do realize that you can flip most of these from islam to christianity right? Replace the Koran with the Bible for instance (#6). All of the works of Jesus were written well after his death (in fact as we now know many of the stories were kept from us, destroyed because they did not "fit" well). Your other assumptions are well just that. You state on your own he did not write anything down and everything is word of mouth. Let's see, nothing written at time about a crucifixtion, certainly not the torture fest from Mel Gibson yet hundreds of millions follow that today. Why not question them?

Islam is the same religion as Christianity. Both require belief in fantasy and a willingness to give up free will. Today criminals use Islam to promote their criminal activities. Christians did it during the crusades and well they are starting to do it again.

Originally posted by iqonx
the same could be said about alot of "islamic" groups out there. The people in kasmir are fighting for independance considering they never wante dto be under indian rule. And the same for chechnya they have been fighting for independance for over 400?

Alot of conflicts that muslims are in are actually very old like chechnya and kashmir.

Well, no they could not. For starters the Islamic groups like the ones operating in Kashmir and in Chechnya are those that are operating not to fight for the people of Kashmir or the people of Chechnya they are fighting for Islam !
Do you know that there are hindus in Kashmir also and that these militants have attacked and killed the native kashmir hindus because they believe that kashmir is muslim land! Same thing happens with the christians in chechnya.
They Christian organisations if you have read the links I have presented are those that have been fighting for independence without reservations about religion. Thought their memebership might be predominantly christian, their operations are not targeted towards the promotion or the spread of christianity. In fact the Sudanese Christian group has attacked churches, preists and nuns all the while Christian Aid helps its victims !

Islamic groups on the other hand are actively supported by other moslems and moslem nations through funding, aid and even diplomatic support to help them carry out their activities. Plus a large part of the moslem populace does in fact actively support these groups and call them as martyrs! Relgious discourses are held to not merely exonerate these groups but to idolize these groups as model moslems fighting the good fight !

How many christian nations are supporting these christian groups in Eastern India and in Sudan ? None !
In fact these rebels of Tripura have bases in Bangladesh which is a moslem nation, which they used to fight the Indian military ! refer to previous links for details.

Originally posted by Allah the moon god
I trust no one that puts belief, before human rights, state, democracy whatever and Islamists must and do.
I have been there, done that and bought the T shirt.

They will always say that you misunderstand the texts because you cant read arabic or that the word doesn’t translate well into English or whatever.
............
"Follow the Gourd".

I agree with your sentiments completely. The banal platitudes they drown people out with day in and day out while its still rains suicide bombers outside is hypocrisy at its best.

"Follow the Gourd" indeed.......

You[IAF101] have voted Allah the moon god for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month

[edit on 17-4-2006 by IAF101]