Eighty thousand deserters in Ukraine

a reply to: RickyD

So are you saying one of Ukraines own politicans are lying/doesn't know whats happeing in his own country?

They have been known to do so "politicians" lying or not knowing whats happening in their own country.

Are you also saying you know better than he does?

What I'm saying is clear RickyD ""various offenses" do not equate to eighty thousand deserters.

And people are generally innocent until proven guilty, possibly not in Russia all that same, but as far as I'm aware still in Ukraine.

a reply to: andy06shake

What I'm saying is clear RickyD ""various offenses" do not equate to eighty thousand deserters.

that's the truth, AWOL / UA doesn't mean desertion.

a reply to: RickyD

Ricky D, do you see what I am saying? You can't convince these people. Their minds are a steel trap. I don't care how hard you try, nothing gets through to them. They only accept what they perceive to be truth and refuse to realize their perceptions are wrong. They have a psychologically defensive rational that conjures up any reason to reject any suggestion that contradicts their perceptions. Narcists never admit they are wrong. Never!

a reply to: charlest2

Name calling aside if you could simply present evidence to support your nonsense.

Fact is you can't do that because charges of various different types don't equate to the claim of 80,000 deserters.

And for very obvious reasons.

originally posted by: charlest2
a reply to: RickyD

Ricky D, do you see what I am saying? You can't convince these people. Their minds are a steel trap. I don't care how hard you try, nothing gets through to them. They only accept what they perceive to be truth and refuse to realize their perceptions are wrong. They have a psychologically defensive rational that conjures up any reason to reject any suggestion that contradicts their perceptions. Narcists never admit they are wrong. Never!

www.bbc.com...

Honestly, it’s the same thing as liberal/hardcore anti Trumpers.

No matter the actual truth on the situation, you’ll get some that’ll knee cling you with cry’s of “waaaaaahhs” and calls on “mean tweets” etc

As if the MSM failed em. But they continue the drip, and cope for some type of destabilization onward or “PR control” etc

As if they’ll get a medal. Or some type of “service” on trying to spin or swat down anything that’s not 100% Pro Biden/Harris or Zelensky etc lol

Half of them can’t find Avdiivka blind folded. Much less Minnesota.

a reply to: charlest2

You can't convince these people. Their minds are a steel trap.

Unlike yourself and others of a similar mindset who are so receptive to different opinions and always consider alternative points of view to your own with an open mind free from any predetermined perspective.

They only accept what they perceive to be truth and refuse to realize their perceptions are wrong.

Because of course your perceptions are always right and 'the truth'.

Pot meet kettle springs to mind.

originally posted by: charlest2
a reply to: RickyD

Ricky D, do you see what I am saying? You can't convince these people. Their minds are a steel trap. I don't care how hard you try, nothing gets through to them. They only accept what they perceive to be truth and refuse to realize their perceptions are wrong. They have a psychologically defensive rational that conjures up any reason to reject any suggestion that contradicts their perceptions. Narcists never admit they are wrong. Never!

You talk about yourself?
I can say the same about pro-Putin folks; repeating the same nonsense again and again and not responding to counter arguments.

It's up to the OP to prove his/her claim citing valid sources. And the random nobody having a YouTube channel isn't really a source that can be trusted, especially that there's plenty of disinformation surrounding this war.

Both Ukraine and Russia have problems with desertion. The problems begin when you try to give the exact numbers. This article is from March but I doubt things have changed all that much since that time.

Nearly 4700 cases of desertion reported in Ukraine since beginning of the year.

So let's count:
6000 in 2022,
16000 in 2023,
4700 in 2024 but this was in March so let's double this number, let's say 10000 in the most pessimistic scenario.
6000+16000+10000 gives 32 000

According to the Russian propaganda. Even they don't point to 80000. Don't be holier than the pope.

a reply to: andy06shake

So all of a sudden after they pull their best forces away from the east and leave the rest to pick up the slack, while Russia is pushing harder than it has in months on that front, and all of a sudden they start losing ground faster than they have in months...then this politican comes out saying "this is a problem, we have 80k deserting"...and we shouldn't take note of that? You assume its a lie before thinking maybe there is something to it... Not like the B and C string these days are filled with guys being kidnapped off the streets and forced to fight would want to stay and get killed right? Especially after a lot of the elite forces are redeployed north leaving them to take the weight of Russia's main push effort. You'd have to be really stupid to not take note!

Also last I heard they are #ting down press and using secret police to round up anyone who disagrees with the offical narrative they can...including westerners...and holding sham trials and convicting them. Its already happened to quite a few journalist and if they are willing to do that to western citizens of countries who back them...what do you think they do to their own.

God...its like you refuse to think critically for yourself...or you have some other motive to push the western propaganda yourself...

Use the grey matter between your ears and think for yourself...

a reply to: andy06shake

it also doesn't refute it either...and he at least posted something to support the report of desertion...I would give much more weight to a Ukrainian politician than I would to any poster here on ATS without some refuting evidence.

a reply to: twistedpuppy

Well do tell. Everybody so far has been spouting opinions based on conjecture and what if scenarios. Even me, maybe.

You are the first to present actual evidence to refute the original post. Thank you! I will accept that the article originally posted may be inaccurate based on what you have provided.

Maybe my stirring the pot produced results after all.

Even so, I stand by what I said concerning changing opinions here. It only happens when the moon is blue.

originally posted by: charlest2
a reply to: andy06shake

I'll not get caught up in a long drawn out debate again. I recognized the futility in doing this long ago now. I said my piece and I'm done here.

Now you are on page four?

originally posted by: charlest2
a reply to: Oldcarpy2

The US and NATO will fight this proxy war to the very last Ukrainian.

There are $s to be made here and the MIC wants every last penny they can bleed out of it.

Did the opposition in Afghanistan and Vietnam run out of men?

originally posted by: Lazy88

originally posted by: charlest2
a reply to: andy06shake

I'll not get caught up in a long drawn out debate again. I recognized the futility in doing this long ago now. I said my piece and I'm done here.

Now you are on page four?

And you came to it?

a reply to: RickyD

God...its like you refuse to think critically for yourself...or you have some other motive to push the western propaganda yourself...

Use the grey matter between your ears and think for yourself

Right back at you.

A swig of your own medicine may be in order methinks.

a reply to: RickyD

Im simply saying various offenses do not equate to eighty thousand deserters.

And I'm not the one making the claim there are "Eighty thousand deserters in Ukraine".

Hence i dont have to refute and prove anything.

Do you need to be reminded how the burden of proof works around these here parts?

If you make the claim, or are supporting such, the onus is on you to provide the proof to back it.

Do you somehow imagine that people charged with an offense equate to them being a deserter?

And to the tune of 80,000 people?

What happened to innocent until proven guilty?

And where did the ""80,000 deserters"" all go?

Let me guess Russia?

a reply to: Imhere

And you failed to mention or start screaming about Stepan Bandera and Asof Nazi Ukrainian battalions.

Do you have a temperature?

originally posted by: Imhere

originally posted by: Lazy88

originally posted by: charlest2
a reply to: andy06shake

I'll not get caught up in a long drawn out debate again. I recognized the futility in doing this long ago now. I said my piece and I'm done here.

Now you are on page four?

And you came to it?

I’m not the one that posted..

originally posted by: charlest2
a reply to: andy06shake

I'll not get caught up in a long drawn out debate again. I recognized the futility in doing this long ago now. I said my piece and I'm done here.

a reply to: andy06shake

Well the charges sound like they had to do with leaving posts and other orders being disobeyed...so its not lile these are j-walking charges. Also again...the claim is made by a Ukrainian politician so I am apt to believe it...much more so than anything you are saying without anything to back it up. I pointed out the fact that Ukraine is very much like Russia in that there is no innocent until proven guilty...only on paper...but in practice they are locking up anyone who gains enough eyes on them and goes against their narrative. Just look at Lira...

a reply to: RickyD

Apparently, Russian courts convict 99% of the poor sods that happen to land in the dock or thereabouts.

Which is an extraordinarily high conviction rate.

And hardly a sign or indication of justice or fairness.

Ukraine also has had issues with high conviction rates, but they are not as extreme as Russia's.

Nor does the court system share the same degree of state control over the judiciary.

At least Ukraine has been more responsive to domestic and international calls for judicial reform.

None of which changes the fact that these various offenses do not equate to eighty thousand deserters.

Because that simply does not follow, down to the fact that people are innocent until proven guilty, and everyone charged, are not going to resort to desertion.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: Imhere

And you failed to mention or start screaming about Stepan Bandera and Asof Nazi Ukrainian battalions.

Do you have a temperature?

No one mentioned them until you did. Perhaps you’re in mourning.

Zelensky’s azov (what’s left of the LARPers) are too busy capturing beaver dams in Kursk for Rachel Maddow/Biden. While Donetsk is collapsing

Poor sods getting blown to smithereens, so bad they’re running to Scotland for aid lol