Mall Of America: Remove Your "Jesus Saves" Shirt Or Leave The Mall

a reply to: TheRedneck

So is wearing any item that has a brand name or statement on it. So if you walk around with a shirt on that says "save the whales" or "stop climate change" you shouldn't be allowed to enter a business. Am I right?

No, you're not right. There is no "obscene language, obscene gestures or racial/religious/ethnic slurs that are likely to create a disturbance" on a "Save the Whales" or "Stop Climate Change" T-shirt.

Wearing a shirt doesn't constitute preaching the gospel. "Preaching the Gospel" constitutes "solicitation".

Ok, now any branded shirt, hat or bag is soliciting somehting and may not be worn.

Remember to start complaining about peoples shirts to have them removed

a reply to: TheRedneck

Did you see where the Madison Square Garden uses facial recognition software on people who enter it? A little while ago a woman who was chaperoning a school trip was asked to leave because the software recognized her as working for a law firm that was in a case against MSG. If they can do that, the guy with the shirt hasn't a chance.
www.nbcnewyork.com...

a reply to: TheRedneck

Of course I know better. The question is, do you? That was in response to your question asking if a security guard could place someone on probation. No, they can't.

From your own sourced quote!

Broad discretion is given to the owners of property as far as barring individuals who have shown a tendency to violate legal restrictions on the property, but this discretion does not extend to the simple expression of "civil rights."

Of course mall security can give warnings and offer probationary terms, such as "You can shop here if you remove your offensive shirt, that is causing complaints".

Clothing/Attire
Appropriate attire, including shirts and shoes, must be worn. Inappropriate attire may include, but is not limited to:

Apparel that has obscene language, obscene gestures or racial/religious/ethnic slurs that are likely to create a disturbance
Clothing that deliberately obscures the face, such as hooded tops or masks
Bulletproof vests or simulated bulletproof vests

www.mallofamerica.com...

a reply to: Terpene

Abusing liberties to be a PITA to others certainly has happend before, and it has certainly been found a way to suppress such behaviors.

I do not like "street corner preachers" either. I try to avoid them. If I want to hear preaching, there are plenty of churches around and plenty of TV preachers to listen to. This is not about preaching in public.

This is about the rights of businesses to deny civil rights of individuals.

A person can preach on a street corner to their heart's content, as long as they do not impede traffic or cause a disruption. I don't like it, but I can also ignore it. A person cannot do so in a mall or private business without permission. But this guy wasn't preaching. The fact that he had preached in violation of policy before is irrelevant... one cannot impose penalties retroactively after forgiving them.

TheRedneck

a reply to: Butterfinger

Ok, now any branded shirt, hat or bag is soliciting somehting and may not be worn.

It wasn't a branded shirt. It was a shirt that displayed a religious slur.

originally posted by: JIMC5499
a reply to: Athetos
It has nothing to do with "freedom of speech or religion". A Mall is private property. Anyone can be asked to leave at any time over anything.

You, sir, are mistaken.

It may be private property, but if it is open to the general public, it most certainly does have to be much more accomadating to things like this.

They can require someone to wear clothes and shoes - but not prevent someone from wearing a shirt that reflects someone's personal religious preference.

a reply to: Sookiechacha

The sudden hyperbole is astounding

Wearing a shirt is now soliciting and a few hours later its slurs.

a reply to: Sookiechacha

No, you're not right. There is no "obscene language, obscene gestures or racial/religious/ethnic slurs that are likely to create a disturbance" on a "Save the Whales" or "Stop Climate Change" T-shirt.

That "Stop Climate Change" shirt is quite offensive to me. Who are you, to tell me what I can and can't find offensive? Who made you the arbitrator of offense?

If I wanted to, I could take offense to about any message. Maybe someone was ripped off by Nike. Wouldn't seeing shoes with "Nike" all over them be offensive?

Wearing a shirt doesn't constitute preaching the gospel. "Preaching the Gospel" constitutes "solicitation".

On that, I cannot argue with you. Public preaching can be considered solicitation in violation of store policy, as long as no religion is specified. One can ban "preaching" but not "Christian preaching" or "Muslim preaching" or "Jewish preaching."

A business can even require a permit to preach... and that would allow them get over that restriction on what messages could be preached (to a point). The Mall of America requires a permit to hand out leaflets... and that allows them to have some say in what messages those leaflets can contain... as long as they make such determinations quietly.

But he was not asked to leave for preaching. He wasn't preaching. He was asked to leave for wearing a t-shirt. Can you not see the difference?

TheRedneck

By all means, explain what is illegal or unlawful or even offensive (to sane, rational people) about that shirt?

originally posted by: Annee
Back of shirt.

a reply to: Sookiechacha

You keep wanting to say that his message was a "slur"... but it wasn't. It in no way said anything about others except that he disagreed with them.

Disagreement is not a slur. You may not like it when someone disagrees with you, but that doesn't make it a slur. A slur is intended to denigrate others for existing. If anything, your own defense of the violation of his civil rights is a slur against him. Your insinuation that a Christian message is a slur is in itself a slur to all Christians.

I actually support the crossed out "COEXIST" symbol, for the simple reason that it is a false message. Those who rally around it don't want to co-exist with others... they want to destroy any and all opposition to what they want. That apparently extends to simply wearing t-shirts they disagree with.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: Athetos
So there is no free speech or freedom of religion anymore in America.

I wonder if there any mall security guards that might wear a turban…or maybe a vendor. Did they ban head coverings? A sign of religion, did they ban kippahs? Are people aloud to be offended by other religions or just Christianity?

No they banned a simple t shirt that simply has one Christian slogan on it.
Of all the t shirts in the freaking mall of America I am sure a guy could dig up a few crude one liners. None of them should be banned.

a reply to: infolurker

it’s mainly just Christianity. Remember, the communist Revolution in Russia not only hated the czars, they hated the Church, and murdered priests, put them in prison, defaced Christian art, and according to Wikipedia, the communist party persecuted Christian leaders

The state advocated the destruction of religion, and to achieve this goal, it officially denounced religious beliefs as superstitious and backward.[3][4] The Communist Party destroyed churches, synagogues,[5] and mosques, ridiculed, harassed, incarcerated and executed religious leaders, flooded the schools and media with anti-religious teachings, and it introduced a belief system called "scientific atheism", with its own rituals, promises and proselytizers.[6][7]

en.m.wikipedia.org...
Here’s another accounting of the persecution thebridgehead.ca...
It wasn’t just Christians, but all religion, as we can remember that Marx said that religion was the “opiate of the masses”.
Even in the US, when the Leftists were seeking power, they propped up secular humanism and eliminated religion from the schools ( on the premise of separation of church and state but the real reason is simply hatred of God and religion).
So you see, this isn’t new, it’s just that the communist left Progressives have made such inroads into our culture that people willingly follow the command to eliminate religious belief, but remember, they propped up the Muslim religion in the US in the schools, teaching children to bow on prayer rugs, because that religion better serves their totalitarian platform of control.
Secular humanism is really part of the communist takeover.
Does anybody here remember the recent covid lockdowns that caused a shutdown of many church gatherings thecwurjd over? Of course they were shutting down small businesses in many places while leaving the Big Box stores like Wal mart open. Oh by the way, I saw that one if those people who did the most draconian lockdowns is an attendee at the next WEF event… what a coincidence.

a reply to: TheRedneck

That "Stop Climate Change" shirt is quite offensive to me. Who are you, to tell me what I can and can't find offensive? Who made you the arbitrator of offense?

There is nothing in those Mall of America guidelines about protecting snowflakes like you from being offended. There is a rule against wearing religious slurs, which the shirt contains.

But he was not asked to leave for preaching. He wasn't preaching. He was asked to leave for wearing a t-shirt.

He was asked to leave several days in a row for preaching. He has a record with Mall Security.

On this day, people, no doubt employees and shop owners, saw him wearing the same shirt again, and complained to security that "preacher guy" is back. They didn't ask him to leave for preaching at this time. They asked him to take off his rule violating shirt, or they would ask him to leave again.

a reply to: TheRedneck

You keep wanting to say that his message was a "slur"... but it wasn't.

That's your selective opinion. Apparently, Mall Security disagrees with you, because they told shirt guy his shirt violated Mall Policy, and that he needed to take it off.

a reply to: Sookiechacha

There is nothing in those Mall of America guidelines about protecting snowflakes like you from being offended. There is a rule against religious slurs, which the shirt contains.

Ah, so it's fine and proper for anything you want to take offense to being called a slur, but anything I take offense to makes me a "snowflake"?

Thank you for verifying what I just said about that "COEXIST" thing... not about co-existence at all. It's about getting one's own way.

Incidentally, "snowflake" is a slur... always has been.

He was asked to leave several days in a row for preaching. He has a record with Mall Security.

But never banned. Probably should have been, but he wasn't. Take that up with the mall owners.

On this day, people, no doubt employees and shop owners, saw him wearing the same shirt again, and complained to security that "preacher guy" is back.

Then he should have been shadowed to make sure he doesn't start preaching again. Or perhaps told specifically "If you start preaching, you will be removed." Then as soon as he opens his mouth to preach, send him packing. That's called "legal."

They didn't ask him to leave for preaching at this time. They asked him to take off his rule violating shirt, or they would ask him to leave again.

And that is called "illegal."

TheRedneck

a reply to: Sookiechacha

That's your selective opinion.

And calling it a slur is your selective opinion. See how that works?

This may e hard to understand, but my selective opinion holds just as much weight as yours.

Apparently, Mall Security disagrees with you, because they told shirt guy his shirt violated Mall Policy, and that he needed to take it off.

So do you believe the purpose of mall security is to enforce their selective opinions on the public?

How does that work when the guards are Christian and want to impose those selective opinions?


TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

And calling it a slur is your selective opinion.

It's not my opinion, it's Mall Security's opinion, which is why they asked him to remove the shirt.

So do you believe the purpose of mall security is to enforce their selective opinions on the public?

It's Mall Security's job to handle vender's, employee's and shopper's complaints according to the rules theyre hired to enforce.

How does that work when the guards are Christian and want to impose those selective opinions?

I have no doubt that most of the security guards who are addressing shirt preacher guy are Christians.

Well Reverent Rush says: Jesus Raves!

a reply to: TheRedneck

So when I enter an establishment without shoes i just paint a cross ok my feet and I'm all set... I can claim victim hood of religious repression, when they force me to put shoes on?

a reply to: Sookiechacha

It's not my opinion, it's Mall Security's opinion, which is why they asked him to remove the shirt.

BULL!

It certainly is your opinion. I am talking to Sookiechacha, not MoA Security. The fact that someone else might agree with you does not make it not your opinion.

It's Mall Security's job to handle vender's, employee's and shopper's complaints according to the rules theyre hired to enforce.

Exactly! Those rules do not include their own selective opinions. That's why they remove people who have been banned or are actively violating written policy. It's not why they remove people who wear a t-shirt they don't like. I want to see that sentence in the security policy: "security is to remove people wearing t-shirts they don't like." You posted the policy earlier; shouldn't be hard to find that.

I have no doubt that most of the security guards who are addressing shirt preacher guy are Christians.

Somehow I don't think most Christians target people who are also Christians for being Christians. But hey, maybe where you are that happens.

But I doubt it.

TheRedneck