Russia Ukraine Update Thread - part 3

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: Vermilion

Really? Cutting all defence aid to Ukraine? That bus?

"Unnecessary Ukrainian deaths"? If your country was invaded by a brutal and repressive Dictator would fighting for freedom be "unnecessary"?

Ukraine is like a one legged man in a buttkicking contest.
This contest however is to the death.
No amount of crutches is going to change the outcome unfortunately.
Those Ukrainian deaths are unnecessary.

a reply to: Vermilion

Well, if so, it's been a very long contest in which, without a navy, they have kicked the butt of the Black Sea Fleet pretty well.

Ukrainians are fighting for their very freedom.

I dare say most of them might disagree with you.

Putin probably thought like you do.

Clearly, he was wrong.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: Vermilion

Trump was quite cosy with Putin when President.
He hasn't been exactly been critical of him since he stopped being President.
Trump has not been forthcoming with details on exactly how he would stop this war in an instant.

Withdrawing US support for Ukraine will allow Putin's forces to eventually overrun Ukraine and enable Putin's land grab.
A sell out in my opinion.

Using the phrase 'bum chum' is quite common in regular speech in such circumstances where I come from.
If it upsets your sensibilities well.......sorry.

Trump is a shrewd businessman and master negotiator.
That’s a fact.
He had a good rapport with most leaders around the globe. Even with little rocket man.
What a great attribute to have in a president.
I’m sure you can agree.
There’s zero reason to question Trump’s foreign policy considering what a success it was already in his previous four year term.
If your problem is with what you think Trump might do, then you might want to look at what he’s done to help you face the facts.
On the other hand, there is plenty of evidence to show that Biden is bending over for Zelensky.
Nothing I’ve seen tells me that Trump is going to allow Putin to take all of Ukraine.
Presidents in the US used to keep their cards close to their chest.
Just because Trump isn’t telling the world what cards he’s got doesn’t mean he’s not holding aces.

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: Vermilion

Well, if so, it's been a very long contest in which, without a navy, they have kicked the butt of the Black Sea Fleet pretty well.

Ukrainians are fighting for their very freedom.

I dare say most of them might disagree with you.

Putin probably thought like you do.

Clearly, he was wrong.

All of what you said is correct.
Feelings aside, the fact is that Ukraine cannot win all their land back.
If that happens, Trump is an even better negotiator than I thought.

a reply to: Vermilion

I have never thought that Ukraine would succeed in getting all their land back.

Who is Trump to speak for and negotiate on behalf of a sovereign nation?

Don't Ukrainians get to have a say?

So much for democratic freedoms.

Ukraine gets a say when they pay 100% of the bill.

I have never thought that Ukraine would succeed in getting all their land back.

At least you’re being real now.

a reply to: Vermilion

He had a good rapport with most leaders around the globe.

Many thought Trump was a joke.

Trump has been the object of repeated jest and even mockery by fellow world leaders. And it’s been caught on tape — again

www.washingtonpost.com...

a reply to: Vermilion

Trump has done # all for me - neither has Biden - I'm not American.

Trump was viewed as a bit of a laughing stock and an embarrassment to the US over here and certainly no friend of the UK's.
Don't worry, the majority view our own politicians with as much contempt.

Right at the outset of Putin's invasion Trump stated he could stop the war overnight.
If so and if he was a man of integrity he should have approached Biden/Putin/Zelensky behind closed doors and done so.
He did no such thing.
He has done nothing but opine about how easy it would be to resolve - without giving any details - and then use it as a political weapon to berate and denigrate Biden.

Don't get me wrong, if Biden was a man of integrity he would have sought Trump out and asked advice.

My criticisms of Trump do not in any way signify any sort of support or liking of Biden.
Its a truly frightening prospect that these are the two options available to the American public - who I have a great regard and respect for - again much the same as the appalling options that were available to us here in the UK in our recent General Election.
We all deserve better than who is the least worst option, perhaps its time we started demanding that.

Anyway, I've waffled on far too much and gone far too off topic, a discussion for another time maybe.

Far more important matters at hand......England and their semi-final.

a reply to: Vermilion

Now?

When have I ever said otherwise?

a reply to: Vermilion

Why might Trump negotiate and speak on behalf of a sovereign country? You have yet to address this.

a reply to: Freeborn

"Far more important matters at hand......England and their semi-final."

Indeed!

a reply to: Vermilion

"He had a good rapport with most leaders around the globe. Even with little rocket man."

Yeah, he really put him back in his box......

a reply to: alldaylong

A WAPO article how orange man bad LoL
Got anything real?

a reply to: Vermilion

Got anything real?

That's real enough. Not for you maybe, but who cares.

a reply to: alldaylong

Attacking the source whilst ignoring the facts is par for the course.

He wasn't exactly welcome when he came over here.

a reply to: Oldcarpy2

He wasn't exactly welcome when he came over here.

You will be accused of spreading fake news.

a reply to: Freeborn

Trump has done # all for me - neither has Biden - I'm not American.

Yet your TDS is as acute as an American lib.
Interesting how it has anything to do with the facts in Ukraine.

Trump was viewed as a bit of a laughing stock and an embarrassment to the US over here and certainly no friend of the UK's.

I remember that balloon LoL
Your own politicians are certainly no friend of your own country too.
I feel you there, Biden is still president here, at least for today.

Right at the outset of Putin's invasion Trump stated he could stop the war overnight. If so and if he was a man of integrity he should have approached Biden/Putin/Zelensky behind closed doors and done so. He did no such thing.

Trump is known for exaggerating many many things, let’s keep it real.
Overnight seems highly unlikely but the point still stands that Trump can end it.
Although previously the commander in chief, I think Trump is still bound by the Logan Act.
§ 953. Private correspondence with foreign governments.
It’s a big no no unless asked officially.
If Biden asked, then Trump could get involved though.

I’m rooting for England.
Hopefully it’s a good match.
There’s been some excellent soccer going on in both tournaments.

a reply to: alldaylong

Being the leader of the free world isn’t a popularity contest.
You can’t make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.
The opponents of the US knew Trump wasn’t putting up with BS when he was in office.
I’m sorry he didn’t give the UK billions of dollars for nothing.
You people are supposed to be above the handouts anyway, right?
Ukraine certainly isn’t.
Do you consider your country more like Ukraine or the US?

originally posted by: Freeborn
Not sure how effective these planes would be if used in a purely defensive capacity in Ukrainian air space.
At this moment in time I wouldn't support them being used offensively, especially in Russian air space.

Belgium said for the F-16s they are providing, Ukraine can't use those in Russian air space, but this article doesn't clarify if air space over Russian occupied territory of Ukraine is considered Russian air space:

President Zelensky's day in Belgium, is gifted Belgium's entire F-16 fleet

My understanding is they can and probably will be used to fire AIM-120 AMRAAMs air-to-air missiles which have pretty long range depending on which version they get. So they could conceivably fly to within 5 km of the front line, and fire at a Russian plane far past the front line. I don't know if you call that offense or defense, or if it matters what you call it. If the plane is dropping gliding bombs I guess it could be defense, but if it's another radar plane like the one downed earlier this year, why not fire at that too, if they get a chance? You make a good point though, they do have to worry about Russian air defenses and not getting shot down.

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
Can someone more knowledgeable about such things explain what difference these F16s might make and what they could do?

It depends on whether they have the AN/APG-66 radar which is not that great compared to Russian Su-35, or AN/APG-83, "an AESA radar which far outstrips the performance of the Su-35’s IRBIS-E."

Ukraine needs to take out the planes dropping the gliding bombs, and they might be able to do it even firing from inside Ukraine's territory using air to air missiles, if the radar is good enough. But if they have the inferior radar I think the Russian plane can spot the F-16 and fire a missile at it before Ukraine's F-16 even knows the Russian plane is there.

There's also the issue of where Ukraine will store the F-16s when not being used. Russia will attempt to locate and destroy them, and unlike HIMARS which Ukraine can park anywhere, there are a limited number of air fields in Ukraine suitable for the F-16, which apparently needs a good quality, clean runway, compared to some other aircraft that perform better on rugged airstrips. So Russia will have an easier time searching for F-16s than searching for HIMARS launchers, due to a much more limited search area.

Zelensky hopes the F-16s will help, but only time will tell. Everyone seems to agree they are not a game changer, but they may help, using the AIM-120 AMRAAMs to down Russian aircraft and certain Russian missiles.

The F-16s have additional capabilities with other weapons systems, but I don't think we know at this point which other weapons systems may eventually be supplied to Ukraine:

Here’s what F-16s will (and will not) mean for Ukraine’s fight against Russia

F-16s will provide Ukraine with a platform capable of easily integrating a wide variety of sophisticated weapon systems should the United States and other countries choose to provide them in the future. These could include the AN/ALQ-131, an electronic countermeasures pod meant to scramble enemy radar to avoid detection, or stand-off kinetic weapons like the Small Diameter Bomb and even cruise missiles such as the AGM-158 JASSM. Once Ukraine has the capability to operate F-16s, the door would potentially be open for NATO countries to provide these weapons, since they are easily compatible with the US-made fighter jet, unlike with the previously used Soviet aircraft.

a reply to: Vermilion

It wasn't that long ago that Brits repaid the US for WW2 lend lease, so, no.