Russia Ukraine Update Thread - part 2

originally posted by: JinMI
a reply to: PatriotGames4u

Yep, then they can get back to Ukranians killing its own civilians.

Win/win?

they are similiar to palestinians,as in they had no loyalty except for the old russian leadership,and as such were never ukranians. So they were not ukranians in anything but name.

originally posted by: Grimpachi

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: jvc17
Another conspiracy coming true.


Mariupol Residents Accuse Ukraine Of Firing On Civilians.




www.youtube.com...

I'm not believing any personal stories/accounts until after and with verification.

Propaganda is rampant.

Not to mention - - the unreliability of human witnesses.

Did you watch the video or dismiss it offhand?

It is one thing when an interview is taken in a clean room in a safe area one on one, it is entirely another when the interview is of people crowded in a bomb shelter while fighting still rages on not far away.
Then another and another and another interview with people picking through the rubble or tending to their daughter's freshly dug grave.

Dismiss if you want but at least watch it first.

Still pushing russia's lancaster stooge?

Is that the only source saying what you want to hear?

originally posted by: RickyD
Last I saw Ukraine claims Neptune strike Russian MOD claims mishandled muntion accident.

I think you'll find HMS Hood suffered a "mishandled munition accident" where an enemy shell hit a magazine. You just need to look at Moskva to see that an Ukraine missile could cause a secondary explosion, or explosions with all those missiles on deck.

The question in my mind is whether Nato partners (US/UK mainly) provided intel as to the position of Moskva, and insight on how to defeat her formidable air defence. The big question is why this ship failed to perform, but the performance of Russian equipment so far seems well below what everyone expected. Perhaps it never worked!

Perhaps Moskva was under tow, but Russia did not want the world to see the burned out tomb/hulk and let it sink. That's plausible.

a reply to: Xcathdra


No wonder russia has been so silent on the issue, it sounds like they went searching for survivors in the water today and found none.

We still don't really know if many of the crew survived, but the signs don't look good.

a reply to: paraphi

We have drones in the black sea and the US Navy deployed an P-8 Poseidon to the area. One of those planes has been monitoring the Black Sea near Romania (by the black sea as well as along the Moldova / Ukraine border). In addition the US and UK have Rivet Joints deployed and NATO deployed some of their surveillance aircraft.

I would assume we have been assisting with intelligence.

a reply to: paraphi

I think you'll find HMS Hood suffered a "mishandled munition accident" where an enemy shell hit a magazine. You just need to look at Moskva to see that an Ukraine missile could cause a secondary explosion, or explosions with all those missiles on deck.

During WW II Japanese field their 600 mm TYPE 93 LONG LANCE torpedo, the cruise missile of the day, with a max range of 50 km (30 miles) and explosive warhead of over 500 kg

To achieve this Japanese used oxygen / kerosene fuel
Japanese cruisers carried 8 tubes with reloads (total 16 )

During battle hit in torpedo flat would cause a massive fire - several Japanese cruisers (FURUTKA, MIKUMA, CHOKAI and possibly others were ) were lost when the fires detonated the torpedo warheads

Conjecture is the missile hits(s) on MOSKVA ignited the SSN12 missile fuel and detonated the warheads

a reply to: PatriotGames4u

Ive seen info where 54+ were rescued and that was it. Taking the loss of a flagship and 450 crew members is painful.

Russia is unable to replace the ship. The other 2 ships are in the med but there home ports are not in the Black Sea so they are being denied entrance by Turkey.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: PatriotGames4u

Ive seen info where 54+ were rescued and that was it. Taking the loss of a flagship and 450 crew members is painful.

Russia is unable to replace the ship. The other 2 ships are in the med but there home ports are not in the Black Sea so they are being denied entrance by Turkey.

I don't think the other two have the air defense upgrades anyway, much older tech on them if this is still true.

I don't follow naval stuff much, so it's possible these were also upgraded recently.

* - Uman(11:34). Red Alert: aerial threat. Sirens sounding. Take cover now!

* - Kharkiv, Kharkivska Oblast(11:32). Red Alert: aerial threat. Sirens sounding. Take cover now!

* - Konotop, Nizhyn(11:31). Red Alert: aerial threat. Sirens sounding. Take cover now!

* - Mykolaiv, Mykolayivska Oblast(11:26). Red Alert: aerial threat. Sirens sounding. Take cover now!

* - There are dead and wounded as result of Russian missile strike in Kirovohrad region

a reply to: paraphi

Could be...I will wait for pictures of the damage or video of the strike to surface. I'm on the fence as both explainations seem plausible. If they have indeed moved their ships away to just past the Neptunes range that would indeed lend a lot of credibility to the Ukrainian's claims.

The article provides some technical information about where the ship was when it was hit / explosion occurred. It says Russia pulled their ships back to 80 miles from land. The Ukrainian anti ship missiles have a range of 170 miles. The Moskva was due for major refits in 2000 and 2015 (2015 was scheduled but cancelled).

Putin's navy on the run! Russian warships move away from Ukrainian coast after 'missile strike' destroyed flagship Moskva cruiser amid claims of 'hundreds' of casualties

This is what happens when Russia fails to take Ukraine inside a week.

Thus are unable to coverup their mass genocide and atrocities.

It will all come out in the wash.

Tell you what don't wash off, that would be the blood on Putin's paws.

a reply to: andy06shake

pretty disgusting , the truth always comes out in the end right
well I hope it will , once more we are all being lied to

to think this is all just about money makes me sick

a reply to: Xcathdra

The missile launchers that Cruiser had mounted all over her foredeck and midships made it a disaster waiting to happen really.

And somewhat of a soft target where any sorts of missile attack is concerned.

Especially so when her air defensive systems are compromised or pointed in the wrong direction.

Combine that with bad weather in the region and something like this was apt to happen given half a chance.

a reply to: sapien82

Digging the folk tune sapien82.

War and conflict has always been about money at one level or another thought-out recorded history.

Because it equates to power.

None of which happens to excuse Putin's invasion of his peaceful neighbours all the same.

Especially under the guise of false pretence aka his hunt the Nazis nonsense.

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: RickyD
Last I saw Ukraine claims Neptune strike Russian MOD claims mishandled muntion accident.

I think you'll find HMS Hood suffered a "mishandled munition accident" where an enemy shell hit a magazine. You just need to look at Moskva to see that an Ukraine missile could cause a secondary explosion, or explosions with all those missiles on deck.

The question in my mind is whether Nato partners (US/UK mainly) provided intel as to the position of Moskva, and insight on how to defeat her formidable air defence. The big question is why this ship failed to perform, but the performance of Russian equipment so far seems well below what everyone expected. Perhaps it never worked!

Perhaps Moskva was under tow, but Russia did not want the world to see the burned out tomb/hulk and let it sink. That's plausible.

Her radar systems work like a homing beacon for many anti ship missiles, Ukraine likely used russia's own systems for targeting, if this is the case then no intelligence would be necessary.

Just guessing based on what little we know at this point though.

The US has openly stated they are sharing intelligence with the Ukrianain military.

news.usni.org...

Army Gen. Paul Nakasone, who heads both Cyber Command and the National Security Agency, said that “in my 35 years” he has never seen a better sharing of accurate, timely and actionable intelligence than what has transpired with Ukraine.

It's my opinion that this is one of the core reasons that Ukraine has fared as well as it has to this point.

a reply to: GAOTU789

The speed that information travels via cyberspace or secure radio channels shrinks the window between tactical decision making and acting on the battlefield. In contrast, Enigma and Ultra intel was a source of higher-level strategic intelligence for the allies in WW2.

I do not doubt that Ukraine's military performance is boosted by intel support from the U.S. and other friendly sources and Russia's inept military performance. But, for the U.S. and U.K. in 1939 - 1945, the challenge was to employ the information without advertising the sources. Although I expect the Ukrainians are receiving a steady source of signals and perhaps cyber intelligence, they are putting too good use.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Russia is unable to replace the ship. The other 2 ships are in the med but there home ports are not in the Black Sea so they are being denied entrance by Turkey.

The Montreaux Treaty of 1936 allows Turkey to bar access to the Black Sea through the Bosphorus Straits , if the ships have not been based there

Russian ships can not reinforce their Black Sea fleet

a reply to: GAOTU789

I say good on Nakasone and the intelligency community more broadly.

I believe an element of Ukraine faring so well is also not just in the US openly stating that they are sharing intelligence with Ukraine, but in actually openly sharing intelligence with Ukraine. Putin likely initially believed that the US and NATO states would revert back to a quasi cold war strategy of secrecy and subterfuge...but in openly sharing intelligence it creates a more dynamic situation for Putin, where he needs to continually shift strategy. I doubt he was prepared for that in any way.