Russia Ukraine Update Thread - part 2

a reply to: Afinity99

The Grauniad is and always has been left of center.

Do you think they made up the quotes in that article?

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: Afinity99

I live here so I don't need news from some random Muppet on YouTube.

I suppose you prefer Russian State propaganda?

Which is famously independent and unbiased.

We all know who that person is already so why do we even answer them anymore?

a reply to: Afinity99

A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.

You are more or less correct about the etymology of the word 'Ukraine' and its usage.
But Ukrainian people have lived in the region for hundreds of years and although closely linked at various times with Russia, Lithuania and Poland they have a distinct and unique culture.
Ukrainians consider themselves Ukrainian and NOT Russian.

The disputed region of Donbas in Luhansk and Donetsk was, until the invasion, still predominantly populated by people who considered themselves Ukrainian and whose families had lived in the region for generations upon generations.
During Stalin's great industrialisation programmes of the late 40's and 50's many Russians moved to the area, some forcibly, to work in the new industrial centres.

Prior to the invasion 58% of the people in the region considered themselves Ukrainian and identified with the Ukrainian culture and the vast majority supported Ukrainian independence and resented Russian interference - they had suffered for far too long under Soviet rule.
38% of people in Luhansk and Donetsk are of Russian origin, most are concentrated in the industrialised urban areas.
The huge swathes of countryside with the countless towns and villages are populated by Ukrainian people.

Putin armed and funded Russian militia's to go into Donbas and agitate, provoke and at times terrorise Ukrainians which resulted in a brutal response from the Kiev government.
Putin got exactly what he wanted and used it as a lame excuse to pursue his own dreams of personal glory and Greatness.

And so here we are.

a reply to: Afinity99


russia tried that early in the war, though they never had any ability to do precision strikes 'like a Tomahawk' as you claimed, and only stopped because they lost too many aircraft.

I hope russia does try it again, that'll leave less russian aircraft for someone else to deal with later.

originally posted by: yuppa

originally posted by: Afinity99

originally posted by: Cutepants
a reply to: Afinity99

Putin just doesn't have enough trained pilots for US style air war. It's a pipe dream. Time to wake up.

It has enough pilots to do something like US has done in Bagdad, but it just does not want to hit Kiev.

For example Bagdad was hit 2 weeks in a row, infrastructure was target like city roads to cut off any type of idea of supplying arms, power plants inside the city, bridges, airport, electrical grid line, pipe line infrastructure.

The Russians could do this if they want to, they could shower Kiev, they instead do not do this.
They have enough pilots.

America started to bomb Iraq with TOMAhawks I think before the initial air raid to take out key elements like transit hubs, train stations, railways, comunication arrays, telegraph poles.

Russia only took out some Radio network in the center of Kiev and then a train station later but all of kiev center, it's infrastructure, power line gird, central roads, anything that can use to aid transport and comunications was left intact. They could of bombed Kiev into hell if they really want it to.

Im sorry but you are wrong. Russias own people do not want a declared war. I suspect the only reason Putin is still in power is because he has not pissed them off enough yet. If he declares a open war his people will revolt and he will have a war on two fronts.

You are right about this, but if they attack Crimea that is full of russians around 95% russian ethnics, that may change and the general Russians may get angry. Things may turn around.

The idea that Putin is counting on the Russians inside Ukriane living there, you forgot about that, the people that formed militias. People of Donbass region. There are many militia man, and the news is just talking about the russian army when the militia make up a very large number of pissed russian people that had to suffer from Zelinsky and former president.

So it depends, the numbers can grow fast, it depends what Ukraine does.

If it happens and there is a general mobilisation I don't think Ukraine can withstand a full force of a classical russian army that will march forward.

You are right that people in Russia are getting upset over the war, some of them anyway.

It's Putin mistake after all, if you kill my people almost 13.000 of them that are just asking to speak russian, learn in russian in schools and build a russian culture inside their native vilages that now are part of Ucraine, because Lenin and Stalin decided to give that land away "but on conditions" then if I were Putin I would wipe you out. I would not play "Special operation" with you.

I would play "Special Termination"

These lands may be part of Ukriane now, but that does not mean you can't grant people the right to live their lives as they see fit, it's called Cultural Autonomy. The right to your own culture.

But Zelinsky choose to give them Culutral Terination by sending ultra nationalistic units to kill people just because they practiced Russian culture in their village.

So this is what I was saying, tho I'm not on anyone's side, I think this time Russia is in the right and had to intervine, but not like this. You storm Kiev with half of milion trooops and bomb the hell out of their parlament and presidential office "it's WAR" They killed thoulsands of your people, so you must say "bend over or else"

So Putin got this one wrong, he wants to be a gentelman

a reply to: Afinity99

They already attacked crimea. try again.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: Afinity99

A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.

You are more or less correct about the etymology of the word 'Ukraine' and its usage.
But Ukrainian people have lived in the region for hundreds of years and although closely linked at various times with Russia, Lithuania and Poland they have a distinct and unique culture.
Ukrainians consider themselves Ukrainian and NOT Russian.

They do not, they are a mix of things from other cultures, but are not those cultures, only a part of those people from those cultures who decided to move to that border land area to trade.

So you cannot say they are the Rutherians because not all the Rutherians that are a mixed of Poles and Lituanians with some Rus moved to the border area, so not all of them went there. So some Cosaks , Tatars also went there but they are not those people in general because only part of them went there to trade.

So only the people on the borderland that went there mixed there and formed them.

The disputed region of Donbas in Luhansk and Donetsk was, until the invasion, still predominantly populated by people who considered themselves Ukrainian and whose families had lived in the region for generations upon generations.
During Stalin's great industrialisation programmes of the late 40's and 50's many Russians moved to the area, some forcibly, to work in the new industrial centres.

There is no such thing, the lands were given to them, Ucraine was a small country

This is a map from a research institute.
The land belong to the Russian Empire before any Ukrainian was there in any numbers, it belong either to Russia or Poland.

www.researchgate.net...

Prior to the invasion 58% of the people in the region considered themselves Ukrainian and identified with the Ukrainian culture and the vast majority supported Ukrainian independence and resented Russian interference - they had suffered for far too long under Soviet rule.
38% of people in Luhansk and Donetsk are of Russian origin, most are concentrated in the industrialised urban areas.
The huge swathes of countryside with the countless towns and villages are populated by Ukrainian people.

That is not accurate at all, you do not have a source, you should find one to post here.

Putin armed and funded Russian militia's to go into Donbas and agitate, provoke and at times terrorise Ukrainians which resulted in a brutal response from the Kiev government.
Putin got exactly what he wanted and used it as a lame excuse to pursue his own dreams of personal glory and Greatness.

Putin armed the militia because these people needed weapons after the Ukrianian Untranationalistic Units wipped out their families or left them without a home.

This how sympathetic are the people of Don Bass towards Ukrainian soldiers before the war.
And this is in Donetz
www.youtube.com...

Must of them are russians as seen here and the Ukrainians there that are Ukrianian are pro Russians and speak Russian.

Sounds like Belgorod lost power after a Ukrainian strike on the central power plant.

Was that part of the plan, Uncle Vladimir?

Cheers

Regarding Shoigu.

Apparently he did not resign, but is no longer in the chain of command for operations in Ukraine.

Cheers

a reply to: Afinity99

The very definition of wilful ignorance.

I can see you becoming a very welcome addition to the ranks of the Putin acolytes, they seem to be slowly dwindling in numbers and passion.
Quite some way to go though to fill RT's shoes.

a reply to: Afinity99

"These lands may be part of Ukriane now, but that does not mean you can't grant people the right to live their lives as they see fit, it's called Cultural Autonomy. The right to your own culture."

Odd that Putin doesn't respect the Ukrainian people's rights in that regard?

There are much better Putin cheerleaders on here than you.

originally posted by: F2d5thCavv2
Regarding Shoigu.

Apparently he did not resign, but is no longer in the chain of command for operations in Ukraine.

Cheers

Thank you, that must be what they were discussing in the group I ran across.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: Afinity99

The very definition of wilful ignorance.

I can see you becoming a very welcome addition to the ranks of the Putin acolytes, they seem to be slowly dwindling in numbers and passion.
Quite some way to go though to fill RT's shoes.

No matter how you cut it, Ukraine is this land that grew overnight out of the suffering of other nations.
Now the people in these lands that are part of Ukraine want to practice autonomy on a local level and have schools in their language, speak their language, go to their church with their version, and practice their cultural habbits.

Once you do that you are in trouble in Ukraine not just as a Russian.

You don't seem to understand.
You should watch the democratic governing body of Ukraine before this war started and it's orientation.
Before you say additional things you should watch this short clip

These people are now part of Army Units and governing body in Ukraine.
www.youtube.com...

Here they are in church honoring the natzi heros they had.
The Ukrainian church is part of state institution
Here they are honoring the natzi and their natzi past.
www.worldjewishcongress.org...

This is happening or was happening in a state institution since the church is a state institution in Ukraine.

So if you are not pure Ukrainian (mixed BS on the borderline land between nations as an degenerated infant) then you are an enemy and cannot practice your culture in your native vilage.

originally posted by: F2d5thCavv2
Regarding Shoigu.

Apparently he did not resign, but is no longer in the chain of command for operations in Ukraine.

Cheers

He is a former emergency director, to direct emergency situations in Russia but not for war purpose.

I don't think he is good at the possition he is in. He is not qualified as a military expert at all, the general stars he has on his shoulders are not earned properly thru military academy , he is not a real general at all, they just made him into one.

He has no military background at all, yet he is giving military instructions in Ukraine.

a reply to: Afinity99

De-Nazification, is it?

You're not up to the job, matey.

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: Afinity99

"These lands may be part of Ukriane now, but that does not mean you can't grant people the right to live their lives as they see fit, it's called Cultural Autonomy. The right to your own culture."

Odd that Putin doesn't respect the Ukrainian people's rights in that regard?

There are much better Putin cheerleaders on here than you.

What is there to respect after you masacre thoulsands of ethnic Rusians in Ukraine.
In Odesa they locked them inside a room and set them on fire, those people burnt alive while the ultranationalists cheered.


mronline.org...

On May 2, 2014, at least 48 people were killed when right-wing Ukrainian forces burned down the Trade Unions Building in Odessa. The victims had taken refuge in the building after opposing the February 2014 coup d’etat in Ukraine that was backed by the U.S. State Department.

Eight years after the massacre, the International Action Center, a New York-based anti-war group founded by former U.S. Attorney General Ramsey Clark, hosted a public commemoration that included testimony from a survivor named Alexey who currently lives in Luhansk in eastern Ukraine.

Here is another news source.

Some 1,000 Ukrainian rightists, led by the notorious Right Sector, surrounded, stormed, and burned the House of Trade Unions in Odessa last Friday, killing 39 pro-Russia demonstrators in the building.

On their way to attacking the union hall, which was occupied by anti-Kiev government demonstrators fearing for their lives, the rightists recruited members of a Ukrainian football club, the Chernomorets, according to numerous reports in the European press and on line.

They burned alive at the hands of the people who know run Ukraine and have the same ideology.

This is just small thing, people got blown to bits, their churches incinerated, schools bombed because they were in russian.

I'm not pro russian and I am not a russian, I don't care about religion, but if you do this to people, they are not going to smile back at you.

I can't believe how bias the main stream news is, like this conflict started out of the blue and Ukraine is this innocent angel.

Did Russian Troll get fired?

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: Afinity99

De-Nazification, is it?

You're not up to the job, matey.

De- what ever, fact is this conflict did not start this year, it has been brewing to this stage.

originally posted by: Afinity99

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: Afinity99

De-Nazification, is it?

You're not up to the job, matey.

De- what ever, fact is this conflict did not start this year, it has been brewing to this stage.

Wrong.

It started when Putin invaded a neighboring sovereign nation.

Does not matter what the name or history of that nation is.

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: Afinity99

De-Nazification, is it?

You're not up to the job, matey.

De- what ever, fact is this conflict did not start this year, it has been brewing to this stage.