Russia Ukraine Update Thread - part 2

originally posted by: PatriotGames4u

It wasn't retribution

originally posted by: PatriotGames4u

it was the elimination of a large international terrorist group

That sounds a whole lot like retribution to me.

ret·ri·bu·tion
/ˌretrəˈbyo͞oSH(ə)n/
noun
punishment inflicted on someone as vengeance for a wrong or criminal act.

Also, i dont know if you recall the at the time, but Congressmen/women, civilians, everyone was boiling over with it. It's off-topic, so ill leave it alone.

a reply to: alphabetaone


Retribution is punishment, we were eliminating a threat, not seeking retribution.

You might recall that the group threatened many more and even larger attacks on American soil at the time.

originally posted by: Grimpachi

One thing I am not doing is stating that Russians are blameless.

You're also not condemning Russia for an unprovoked invasion of sovereign territory. So, really, two things you're not doing.

originally posted by: Grimpachi

Many here pegged the Ukrain Nazis as good guys.

With many, ostensibly you must be able to quote at least some of them?

originally posted by: Grimpachi

Any group whose stated goal is the extermination of an entire section of people I will not support.

You mean like Putin's evocation of the Wagner group during this conflict?

The company's name comes from Utkin's own call sign "Wagner" after the German composer Richard Wagner, which he is said to have chosen due to his passion for the Third Reich (Wagner being Adolf Hitler's favorite composer). As such, some believe him to be a neo-Nazi, with The Economist reporting Utkin has several Nazi tattoos. Radio Liberty cited insiders as saying that the leadership of the Wagner Group are followers of the Slavic Native Faith, a modern Pagan new religious movement.

Feel free and ignore this at your leisure.

a reply to: PatriotGames4u

I recall everything.

People on the streets in almost every state didn't want "the elimination of a threat" strategically minded though, they wanted blood.

a reply to: alphabetaone

You still haven't answered my question from the last thread

a reply to: alphabetaone


Sure, lots of common folks did, but our government and military did not behave that way.

a reply to: PatriotGames4u

Right, i wasn't talking about military engagement though. That's where i think we're having differing postures here. I was more on a "word on the street" diatribe.

The war is far from over, yet some are beginning to talk of its lessons, of the future of the tank, of peace and the post-conflict phase. It is far too soon to tell. The contest is like an hourglass full of sand that you have just inverted. The grains are still in motion and have yet to land. The fighting is still in mid-flow.

Full article

IMO, Dr Peter Caddick-Adams, the author and historian, is spot on concerning the war's outcome in Ukraine. But I am wary of reading too much into viewpoints that align with mine. Nevertheless, Putin's next steps will play a role in determining the war's outcome.

Also, I would caution against reading to0 much into Ukraine's early tactical successes against Russian forces. No amount of tactical nous can overcome strategic handicaps. Ukraine's economy isn't geared for wartime time circumstances. Heck, paying taxes in that country is optional! Also, note how Russian industry and energy production are beyond the reach of air and cruise missile strikes.

a reply to: alphabetaone


Word on the street was definitely 'revenge', that tends to happen when attacked in such a large way, but cooler professional heads prevailed.

originally posted by: xpert11

Also, I would caution against reading to0 much into Ukraine's early tactical successes against Russian forces. No amount of tactical nous can overcome strategic handicaps. Ukraine's economy isn't geared for wartime time circumstances. Heck, paying taxes in that country is optional! Also, note how Russian industry and energy production are beyond the reach of air and cruise missile strikes.

My personal opinion is that right as it stands? Ukraine are net losers in this scenario.

They've been invaded.
They've lost Crimea, Donetsk, Luhansk - likely permanently.
Their infrastructure is in tatters.
Their major cities are demolished.
Pripyat wasn't exactly a playland before, now it's outrageously volatile.
.
.
All this, because Putin sees US boogeymen everywhere he looks.

originally posted by: PatriotGames4u
a reply to: alphabetaone


Word on the street was definitely 'revenge', that tends to happen when attacked in such a large way

Absolutely true. Which was the sole reason i was even drawing that comparison in the context of my original post.

originally posted by: sapien82

we dont want hosilities to continue and no on should seek revenge by destroying Russia and its people
this is how war is perpetuated people openly calling for others to be destroyed.

My mindset in that was, is that "it happens. People get excitable, they seek revenge" as a knee-jerk reaction.

originally posted by: alphabetaone
a reply to: PatriotGames4u

Right, i wasn't talking about military engagement though. That's where i think we're having differing postures here. I was more on a "word on the street" diatribe.

I will tell you the main difference between US forces and Russians. In the US you can and will be investigated for actions you commit. I myself once had to go through an investigation because of optics. A medic at a fob reported me because I broke someone's nose and orbital bone with the butt of a rifle. he had 2 kids there at the time a boy and a girl. I was cleared after the investigation won't go into too much detail other than to say he was in hiding and I didn't know he was there until I heard him running at me. As a general rule, most US military goes out of their way not to hurt civilians and even tried to help them whenever we could. I for example carried candy which I would hand out to the children stuff like gum and candy bars but I enjoyed seeing the smiles as for some this was the first time they ever tried candy.

We helped in many ways including helping get vehicles running dug wells for villages in general i will say Afgans can be very friendly at least most of them I suppose that is why I get so mad when I see what crap the Russians are pulling in Ukraine.

a reply to: dragonridr

There were so many false claims of such in iraq2 that DoD recruited FBI, CIA, and even Weapons Manufacturers to assist with all the investigations of our own troops.

99.9% were completely false propaganda lies, and the other .1% were severely punished.

We simply don't do the type of things that russia has been doing, and we put a great deal of effort into making sure of that.


Thank you for your service!

a reply to: alphabetaone

Nicely stated, the Russians are entrenched in Ukraine. So commentaries that cover Russia failing to achieve its objectives miss that point entirely. Also, Ukrainian counterattacks regaining lost ground aren't in the realm of counteroffensives evicting or destroying the invaders. If the Russian economy holds out long enough for Putin to place Russia on a war footing, then the strategic situation for Ukraine grows bleaker.

We are entering the third month of Russia's invasion of Ukraine, and I have to laugh at their incompetence. The expression, "all the gear, no idea", comes to mind. Russia might have some high-tech weapons and systems. Still, if the people operating this equipment are poorly trained conscripts, it's like giving a Dslr camera to an amateur photographer and telling them to take a good photo. They might get lucky once or twice, but most of their photos will be terrible.

As for the narrative in this invasion, both sides will play the narrative game. But, the one thing we should not lose sight of is that Russia attacked Ukraine without provocation. First, they were amassing forces near the border for weeks. When the alarm was being rung that Russia was planning an invasion, it was dismissed as hysteria, and Russia itself said they were not going to invade Ukraine.

Then they invaded.

Putin's excuse was Ukraine "maybe" joining NATO was a threat, despite no direct threats being made to Russia. Another excuse was those breakaway regions infiltrated by pro-Russian separatists, which Putin recognised were under threat, and he wanted to protect them. If that were true, why not occupy those regions in Ukraine and stop there? Why was Russia so insistent on advancing towards the capital and overthrowing the government? The whole invasion was never about NATO or breakaway region protection; Putin is trying to create a legacy here.

There is speculation that Putin has been sick for a few years. Putin is trying to do something that puts him in the history books in a last-ditch effort because legacy to a selfish dictator like Putin is more important than public opinion.

Putin and his forces are cornered animals. Poor planning and logistics mean Russian troops have had to resort to looting to eat and get water because of supply issues. Desperation is perhaps the most dangerous thing.

And those images coming out of Bucha are disgusting. It's clear that Russian troops have no respect for civilian life. And yeah, the number of casualties might not be as high as other wars that countries like the USA have engaged in (which many like to bring up), but Russia is making plays out of the Hitler playbook, covertly trying to hide their actions. Still, some on this site will proclaim that the images in Bucha are fake and the bodies are crisis actors. Some will still argue that Ukraine killed those people to frame Russia and control the narrative.

There are so many facets of this invasion that are real. The millions of people fleeing Ukraine into neighbouring countries like Poland are real. The damaged buildings and other imagery/videos taken by multiple news outlets are real. It might be hard to know what information is real and isn't when both sides claim to have a victory over the other, but the casualties, displaced people and damage are real.

* - Explosions reported in Kherson

* - Mykolayivska Oblast(00:13). Red Alert: aerial threat. Sirens sounding. Take cover now!

* - Odesa, Odeska Oblast(00:09). Red Alert: aerial threat. Sirens sounding. Take cover now! Multiple explosions reported just as sirens sounded

* - Shelling again targeting Kharkiv

* - Ukrainian military clearing Kolychivka, Yahidne and Ivanivka villages in Chernihiv region

* - Secretary of the National Security and Defense Council of Ukraine: Russian forces are redeploying in Sumy and we expect an attack there soon

* - Ivano-Frankivsk regional administration not confirming explosions in region

* - 469 citizens from Mariupol were able to evacuate to Berdyansk

* - Reports of explosions in Ivano-Frankivsk and Kolomyia

* - Explosions reported in Rivne region

* - Russian army shelling in Kharkiv: 7 killed, 34 wounded, among them 3 children

* - Loud explosion reported in Ternopil'

* - 3 killed, 7 wounded as Russian army shelled Derhachi town near Kharkiv

* - Kryvyi Rih(22:05). Red Alert: aerial threat. Sirens sounding. Take cover now!

* - Kharkivska Oblast, Ternopilska Oblast, Zaporizka Oblast(22:02). Red Alert: aerial threat. Sirens sounding. Take cover now!

* - Vinnytska Oblast(21:58). Red Alert: aerial threat. Sirens sounding. Take cover now!

* - Cherkaska Oblast, Kirovohradska Oblast, Volynska Oblast, Rivnenska Oblast, Khmelnytska Oblast(21:54). Red Alert: aerial threat. Sirens sounding. Take cover now!

* - One person was killed and three others were injured when Russian forces targeted a hospital in the east Ukrainian town of Rubizhne, the local governor Sergiy Haiday said on Telegram

* - Destruction at Buzova UKXB airfield west of Kyiv

* - During the first couple of days of the invasion Ukraine claimed to have shot down two Ilyushin Il-76 aircraft carrying paratroopers. It's possible this is the wreckage from one of them

* - German @Bundeskanzler Olaf Scholz said Western allies would agree on further sanctions on Russia in the coming days over its invasion of Ukraine and the "atrocities" committed by Russian troops in a town near Kyiv

* - A resident of Irpin says that on streets named after the most famous Russian writers, Pushkin and Lermontov, Russian troops shot girls and women and then drove their tanks over them

* - Polish PM: "The Bucha massacre is more than an alarm bell for Europe and more weapons must be provided to Ukraine"

* - Canadian Prime Minister: We strongly condemn the killing of civilians in Ukraine and are determined to hold the Russian government to account

* - The source is state-funded media. Please, be aware, do not rely on this source without proper objective analysis of facts to form a judgment. Russian Ministry of Defense claims missile strikes against Kostyantynivka, Slavuta, Ternopil and Balovne

* - Lvivska Oblast(20:15). Red Alert: aerial threat. Sirens sounding. Take cover now!

* - Kyiv Oblast(20:15). Red Alert: aerial threat. Sirens sounding. Take cover now!

* - Zhytomyrska Oblast, Khmelnytska Oblast, Cherkaska Oblast, Lubny, Rivnenska Oblast, Ivano-Frankivska Oblast, Volynska Oblast(20:15). Red Alert: aerial threat. Sirens sounding. Take cover now!

* - Mykolayivska Oblast(20:11). Red Alert: aerial threat. Sirens sounding. Take cover now!

* - Kyiv(20:11). Red Alert: aerial threat. Sirens sounding. Take cover now!

* - Russia "entire chain of command" will eventually be held accountable for the mass execution of civilians in Bucha, vows @DmytroKuleba

As a reminder -

Just so people know and understand. Information from war zones can become confusing as there will no doubt be info released from the players (on both sides) involved that might not necessarily be true.

As such take everything as a possibility and NOT as absolute truth.

The very first casualty in a war is the truth and all warfare is based on deception

* - Proposed EU sanctions on Russia are inadequate, according to @DmytroKuleba

* - Killings in Bucha are "a brutality against civilians we haven't seen in Europe for decades" - @NATO SG @jensstoltenberg to @CNNSotu. Putin must end this war. Those responsible must be held responsible through @IntlCrimCourt investigation into war crimes in Ukraine

* - Russian army shelled evacuation convoy at Balakliya town, at least one killed

* - One killed, 14 wounded as result of shelling of Mykolaiv. Also casualties in Ochakiv

* - Warning! This event contains graphic media, scenes of explicit violence or gore. Is intended for mature audiences. Bucha resident Antonina Pomazanko shows her daughter's body. She was shot by a russian soldier on the first day of the occupation. She went out to look at the convoy of vehicles and was killed. Mother buried her in the yard

* - Multiple casualties as result of Russian shelling at Slobidsky district of Kharkiv. At least 23 wounded, including children, also several killed - Head of Kharkiv regional administration

* - Yesterday @thejointstaff Gen. Mark Milley spoke with Commander-in-Chief of Ukrainian Armed Forces Gen. Valery Zaluzhny - Milley affirmed US support-"Ukraine is a key partner to @NATO & is strongly committed to national sovereignty &democratic principles," said Milley's spox

* - 410 civilian bodies found in Kyiv region retaken from Russia, Ukraine prosecutor says

* - Shelling with cluster ammunition targeting Kharkiv, there are casualties among civilian population

* - Russian army shelled Volodymyrivka, Zaporizke villages in Dnipropetrovsk region with MLRS Tornado-S with cluster ammunition and Voznesenske

* - Czech Prime Minister: The Russian army committed war crimes in Ukraine

* - Heavy shelling in Kharkiv again

* - About 1500 people were evacuated from dangerous areas of Luhansk region

* - In Nova Kakhovka Russian troops detained journalist and a writer, the editor-in-chief of NovaKakhovka.City Olexander Gunko

* - Russian missile strike targeted Vasylkiv in Kyiv region

* - French President: The Russian authorities must be held accountable for their crimes in the Ukrainian Bucha and the killing of civilians in the streets

* - Dutch Defense Minister: The horrific images from Bucha and reports of crimes against civilians cannot be left unanswered

* - Stoltenberg: We continue to provide security assistance in terms of military equipment and training to the Ukrainian forces

* - Konotop district has been freed from Russian troops - MP Olexander Kachura

* - NATO Secretary General: The killing of civilians in Bucha is appalling and unacceptable

* - NATO Secretary General: What we are witnessing in Ukraine is not a withdrawal of Russian forces, but a repositioning, the Russian offensive continues

* - Ukraine Foreign Minister @DmytroKuleba says it'll be his mission in life to bring to justice the Russians responsible for atrocities committed in Kyiv region. "It was impossible to imagine this in the XXI century, but it is happening before our eyes. Russia is worse than ISIS

* - Annalena Baerbock, Germany's foreign minister, has accused Russia of "war crimes" over dead civilians bound and dead left on the streets of Bucha

* - Pilot of an aircraft shot down near Izyum has been reportedly captured

* - Clashes at Oleksandrivka, Pivdenny Buh frontline

* - Destroyed Russian equipment in Mariupol

* - Kherson: Today's anti-occupation rally

* - Snovsk mayor was released from Russian captivity

* - Explosion reported in Tomarovka village of Belgorod region, debris have fallen on the village after

* - Ukrainian Air defense shot down another Su-34 fighter-bomber in the Kharkiv region

As a reminder -

Just so people know and understand. Information from war zones can become confusing as there will no doubt be info released from the players (on both sides) involved that might not necessarily be true.

As such take everything as a possibility and NOT as absolute truth.

The very first casualty in a war is the truth and all warfare is based on deception

Latvia switches to ruble payments for gas, entering into a long-term contract with Gazprom until 2030.

"The procedure for settlements in Russian rubles does not formally violate the sanctions"

Latvijas Gaze
Sun, 3 April 2022, 1:00 pm·2-min read
Latvijas Gaze
Latvijas Gaze
JSC “Latvijas Gāze” has entered into a valid long-term agreement on the supply of natural gas until 2030 with PJSC “Gazprom”, which provides for settlements for natural gas in euros.

According to the changes in the legislation of the Russian Federation, starting from April 1, 2022, settlements for natural gas supplies made after April 1, 2022 in accordance with the foreign trade agreements of PJSC “Gazprom” for the supply of natural gas abroad (to a number of countries) shall be made only in Russian rubles.

link

a reply to: Grimpachi

Just to clarify for everyone, JSC Latvijas Gaze is in fact owned by Gazprom (34%).

PJSC Gazprom is a Russian majority state-owned multinational energy corporation headquartered in the Lakhta Center in Saint Petersburg.