Russia Ukraine Update Thread - part 2

originally posted by: F2d5thCavv2
a reply to: Xtrozero

You should teach a course in contemporary history at a university.

I recall a professor who taught a course in 20th century history. When he got to World War II, he paused and was lost in thought for a moment. Then he looked at us in the class, and said, "Hitler. Yeah. I remember that guy", and then mentioned he had served as a GI in northwestern Europe.

What a great time to attend higher education that time was.

Cheers

Cool story

I think students today would need a saferoom from my course..lol

What people forget is that history is in the eye of the victor, always has been for like the last 100,000 years. Crimea was a freaken brutal war, but for some reason 80%+ of the population there loved what Russia did...ya right... What Russia is doing right now in Ukraine is right out of their playbook of destroying all civil infrastructure, making the population that is left 100% reliant on what they decide to provide after wiping everything else out. But we both know if Russia takes Ukraine and add it to mother Russia there will be a vote for this to happen, and of course, 90% of the population will vote yes, yes, YES!! We want to be a part of Russia again. I guess when Russia starved 30% of Ukraine's population in the 1930s it was just a bump in the road to Nirvana. It kind of seems with the massive fighting going on they don't want this, but there are still people here on ATS that still think most do there...geez

a reply to: andy06shake

Indeed. The last opportunity we had "to do something with it" was badly squandered IMO.

Cheers

originally posted by: F2d5thCavv2

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: F2d5thCavv2

Right, we aren't supposed to make personal attacks either.

Hypocrisy is thy name.

Grim,

Don't misunderstand me.

I attack no one.

If you really wish to believe the Russian state is the injured party in this conflict ... have at it.

My comments ... are for the taking or the leaving. If they are useful to readers, then good. If not, then my view is, that is also okay.

But, yeah, I think Putin's "government" is a kleptocracy of oligarchs. And I think there is nothing to admire there.

Do you want some balance? Yes, I have no doubt that Ukraine is not a country of angels. Sure, there is corruption in their government. But here's the thing: the internal issues of Ukraine don't give Russia a green light to invade Ukraine.

That is where you and I don't see eye to eye.

Cheers

I'm doubting the keptocracy more and more. I am tending toward the fact it is a dictatorship and the oligarchs are nothing more than Putin's lackeys.

Surviving Russian Atrocities In A Destroyed Ukrainian Village

a reply to: Xtrozero

Not to mention that the narratives re: Crimea seemingly have no time to mention the Tatars and the peoples who were there before them.

I mean, if we're going to use history as a stick, then let's use the whole of it ...

And consideration of which kind of indicates why -current- diplomatic solutions focus on recent events, such as the inconvenient fact that Russia legally ceded Crimea to Ukraine decades ago.

The arguments in favor of Russia in this war are typical of revisionism. I've seen these arguments before, but back then they were attempts to depict Hitler's regime as the injured party in the Second World War.

I suppose one could say,

"Men come and go, but the nature of arguments are enduring"

Cheers

See Antony Blinken's Reaction To Horrific Ukraine Images

I was debating on posting this it shows what a beautiful city Mariupol was before the Russian invasion.



This is what it looks like now





Do you really think Russia was not attacking civilians?

originally posted by: Grimpachi
That is the official narrative pushed by the West.

Weird how all these years you never really hear about all the Crimeans ...

That's because the Russians have ethnically cleansed Crimea. It's what they do. They did it in the parts of Georgia they annexed and every other place before. There is so much evidence out there that covers the Russian human rights record in Crimea. Just look without the blinkers. The evidence is overwhelming.

Russia, marching towards ethnic purity for the last 100 years.

a reply to: F2d5thCavv2

I wasn't saying you attacked but I am just observant of how you gloss over a personal attack and then go after me saying I am making it about myself.

That was bait. I didn't rise to it but then you jump in with...

We both know what you were doing so leave it at that.


One thing I am not doing is stating that Russians are blameless. One action triggers a reaction and when looking at the span of time since the USSR fell it has been action-reaction over and over.

This thing is far more convoluted than any of you make it out to be. Many here pegged the Ukrain Nazis as good guys. And yes I call them Nazis. Any group whose stated goal is the extermination of an entire section of people I will not support. Add in the Swastikas, tortures, murders, Nazi reenactments, etcetera which were happening before the invasion makes me believe the best thing that can happen is they get wiped out or busted down to the point that regular people can take back control.

If those guys win, in 10 to 30 years we are going to see another Reich. Putin is almost 70 and when he dies a lot of what he built dies. What Ukraine is becoming is built on an ideology, those don't die with one man.

I also know there are a lot of good regular people that are Ukrainian soldiers. The news won't tell you this but many have surrendered and about 1,000+ or more have gone over to the other side.

Zelensky may not be a complete puppet but he certainly wasn't in control. He ran on ending the war with Donbas and when he ordered the forces to stop fighting and pull back they ignored him. When he went there himself with the regular army at his back they laughed in his face, treated him like a fool, and made an overt threat on his life if he tried to talk to the other side. They did that on camera and then posted it for the world to see.

I was still a bit on the fence until I started seeing videos coming out of Mariupol. That is what did it for me. The way the Ukraine forces treated the people while under Azov influence has me convinced that their influence can't be allowed to remain.

They were not fighting for the city, not for their country, not for the people. They were fighting for their own worthless lives and their ideology. The things they have done are absolutely sick and I mean the things they did to the citizens of Mariupol.

They seem to have some of the same disdain for soldiers in their own forces. Aidar would chain a soldier to a pole or tree in the likely path of Russian forces and leave them with a single NLAW or MANPAD. Russain forces kept coming across their frozen bodies where they were chained or cable tied.

There is a whole lot more but these factions have become a European ISIL. So yeah, Putin is bad, blah blah blah. If Ukraine wins the worlds going to have a far bigger monster in its midst.

The more this Ukraine/Russia war drags on...the more of a chance that the U.S. or NATO might become involved in a nuclear confrontation with Russia --- Due to a mistake, or by an act of aggressive confrontation by either side.

originally posted by: Erno86
The more this Ukraine/Russia war drags on...the more of a chance that the U.S. or NATO might become involved in a nuclear confrontation with Russia --- Due to a mistake, or by an act of aggressive confrontation by either side.

I was worried about that as well at first. However, after watching Putin's reactions he's not willing to cross that line. He knows Russia cant come out of a nuclear war. And in a conventional war, Russia would lose within 2 weeks.

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: F2d5thCavv2


"That was bait."

You've been dropping bait for weeks, now you have complaints?



'One thing I am not doing is stating that Russians are blameless."

You have been doing exactly that for a month.




'Many here pegged the Ukraine nazis as good guys."

Nobody ever claimed Ukraine was "good guys", this is the reason NATO repeatedly rejected Ukraine's membership request.

We correctly claim that russia had no justification for invading a non threatening neighbor to steal land.




"I was still a bit on the fence until I started seeing videos coming out of Mariupol. That is what did it for me. The way the Ukraine forces treated the people while under Azov influence has me convinced that their influence can't be allowed to remain.


Those were russian propaganda videos and azov hadn't been abusing those civilians, only russians had control of that region.

a reply to: Subaeruginosa


Iraq is where the terrorists ran (by invitation) after being kicked out of Afghanistan, nobody ever claimed that iraq was involved in 9/11.

a reply to: alphabetaone


It wasn't retribution we were after, it was the elimination of a large international terrorist group that was hell bent on continuing large scale attacks against the U.S.

Somebody please shplain why every time I see Ukrainian soldiers walking about their uniforms are in immaculate condition.

And ask yourself "Why?" ... every time YOU see a picture of a Ukrainian soldier who has no mud on his uniform.

a reply to: Grimpachi


"That is the official narrative pushed by the West"


That is the fact acknowledged by almost every country on the planet not named russia or north korea.

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: F2d5thCavv2

Right, we aren't supposed to make personal attacks either.

Hypocrisy is thy name.

Indeed, you should probably step away from that mirror though.

a reply to: Snarl

Well, I guess you were never in the military huh? Dirt does not show well on camo and even mud you wait until it dries then wipe it off more smack it like you would a rug ut it works well. I've spent a week in a mud pit you just need 1 dry day to shake off all the mud.

a reply to: Snarl


Perhaps because you're seeing photos of the aftermath and not the actual fighting?

I've seen plenty of grimy looking Ukrainian warfighters.