Russia Ukraine Update Thread - part 2

a reply to: Xtrozero

It almost sounds like you support US-backed regime changes.


You act like Russia made moves out of nowhere. At least the people of Crimea had a vote. Maybe you forgot but the current Ukraine government came into power by breaking their constitution.

Imagine for a moment that it was confirmed that the prior election was stolen and Texas succeeded because of it.

Then the illegitimate US government cried that texas was getting help from other foreign governments.

This is a lot more complicated than you are trying to make it out. There is no logical reason for you to be supporting illegitimate governments but for some reason you do.

originally posted by: Grimpachi
At least the people of Crimea had a vote. Maybe you forgot but the current Ukraine government came into power by breaking their constitution.

1. The Crimean vote was a farce, as is acknowledged by everyone except Russia and North Korea.
2. Internal Ukrainian politics are up to Ukraine to address. The current Ukrainian president came to power after an election in 2019. What's your point? What part of the constitution did they break?

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: Xtrozero

It almost sounds like you support US-backed regime changes.


You act like Russia made moves out of nowhere. At least the people of Crimea had a vote. Maybe you forgot but the current Ukraine government came into power by breaking their constitution.

Imagine for a moment that it was confirmed that the prior election was stolen and Texas succeeded because of it.

Then the illegitimate US government cried that texas was getting help from other foreign governments.

This is a lot more complicated than you are trying to make it out. There is no logical reason for you to be supporting illegitimate governments but for some reason you do.

Im confused is he supporting Russia? Putin has been rigging elections and changing rules for decades to stay in power.

Started with changing the Russian constitution so he could remain in office, From there went into arresting oppositions and yes rigging elections. Russian elections are now state-directed performances that eliminate opposition. Together with legislative allies, the Kremlin changed electoral laws at every election to maintain the dominance of the pro-Kremlin party. There is an unwritten regulation that poll workers must be members of the pro-Kremlin party, United Russia. And they count behind closed doors, padding the vote as they go.

originally posted by: Grimpachi

It almost sounds like you support US-backed regime changes.

Whatever the US did in Ukraine it wasn't by the use of blowing up the country in the process.

You act like Russia made moves out of nowhere. At least the people of Crimea had a vote. Maybe you forgot but the current Ukraine government came into power by breaking their constitution.

Russia took Crimea in 2014 by force killing 3500 civilians with about 14,000 deaths total. The vote was all controlled and reported by the invaders. 97% turnout with 83% voting to rejoin Russia is some crazy propaganda crap at the levels of hype the old USSR would say...lol

As we are able to put the pieces together years later we see they had only two choices on the ballot. 1. Join Russia again 2. Be totally independent with no help from anyone. There was no 3rd option to stay with Ukraine. With a Russian population there of 60% to see 83% voting yes to rejoin Russia seems a little high even with Russia's typical inflated standards. Almost as bad as the dictator Putin winning 108% of the votes...

Here is what was much closer to the truth.

It was not, however, a fair referendum. It was conducted in polling places under armed guard, with no credible international observers, and with Russian journalists reporting that they had been allowed to vote. Two months later, a member of Putin’s Human Rights Council let slip that turnout had been more like 30 percent, with only half voting to join Russia.

If this was the real truth of how it went down what do you think about it? Remember Russia invaded Crimea by brutal force and for some reason, the people cheered and begged to rejoin Russia...lol OK

Imagine for a moment that it was confirmed that the prior election was stolen and Texas succeeded because of it.
Then the illegitimate US government cried that texas was getting help from other foreign governments.
This is a lot more complicated than you are trying to make it out. There is no logical reason for you to be supporting illegitimate governments but for some reason you do.

Not a good analogy...

How about if the US started cutting out chunks of Canada and Mexico to make our 51, 52, 53 states. Invaded, then held "elections" telling the world that 99% voted to be part of America, all the while they are under full occupation control with zero outside observers, etc. Better yet... it's 2022 so would any country today just let chunks of their country become a part of another? Can AK vote to become a part of Russia? This crap doesn't even make sense when you apply it to other countries, but for some reason, you feel it's OK for Russia to strong-arm Ukraine into giving up chunks of their country.

This is all BS anyways, as we both know Russia's true intent is NOT to free these people as we are seeing these people do not want to be "freed' by Russia anyway you look at it. But hey, if Russia takes Ukraine I'm sure 90% will vote to be part of mother Russia again...lol

a reply to: paraphi

1. The Crimean vote was a farce, as is acknowledged by everyone except Russia and North Korea.

That is the official narrative pushed by the West.

Weird how all these years you never really hear about all the Crimeans that feel they were cheated and wish to return to Ukraine. You know, they can even access the internet but there are no boards of Crimeans for Ukraine. There is no east-west blockade of information.
Deny ignorance

2. Internal Ukrainian politics are up to Ukraine to address. The current Ukrainian president came to power after an election in 2019. What's your point? What part of the constitution did they break?

It is pretty simple. Just because Ukraine looks like they got their # together 5 years later doesn't mean that Crimea's vote to leave is nulled.

a reply to: dragonridr

Yeah, you are confused. I am not pro Putin. I do have an affinity for Russians in general just because I have worked with some.

However, I am very against the Ukraine government since this began. I like many others was dusting off my combat boots and looking over what equipment I could take and in between searching flight availability and pricing I started digging about all that had been going on there.

Sometime later I put my boots away because theirs is not a government that should be saved.

a reply to: Xtrozero

Whatever the US did in Ukraine it wasn't by the use of blowing up the country in the process.

You should really look into the "whatever that is" part.

these people as we are seeing these people do not want to be "freed' by Russia anyway you look at it.

Where have you been looking? Because I am seeing plenty of people that want nothing to do with Ukraine. Those people are talking for themselves on camera. It isn't some media station telling you what they are saying or the government explaining what they want. It's the people still in the streets as explosions can be heard saying it.

originally posted by: Grimpachi

Sometime later I put my boots away because theirs is not a government that should be saved.

And trust me, your loss is deeply felt as (rumor has it) Ukraine has been hedging all their bets on Grimpachi donning those combat boots to save their country and government structure.

a reply to: alphabetaone

Of course. After all, I am very photogenic. They probably would have used me instead of the other American guy to film their propaganda pieces.lol

1 2 3 4 Russian tanks, lol

a reply to: Xtrozero

You should teach a course in contemporary history at a university.

I recall a professor who taught a course in 20th century history. When he got to World War II, he paused and was lost in thought for a moment. Then he looked at us in the class, and said, "Hitler. Yeah. I remember that guy", and then mentioned he had served as a GI in northwestern Europe.

What a great time to attend higher education that was.

Cheers

a reply to: Grimpachi

Grim,

This thread isn't about you or anyone else in this thread. Let us please stay closer to the topic at hand.

That said: You gripe about Ukraine's government ... AS IF ... Russia's kleptocracy under Putin is somehow something better. THAT is laughable.

Cheers

a reply to: F2d5thCavv2

Right, we aren't supposed to make personal attacks either.

Hypocrisy is thy name.

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: F2d5thCavv2

Right, we aren't supposed to make personal attacks either.

Hypocrisy is thy name.

Grim,

Don't misunderstand me.

I attack no one.

If you really wish to believe the Russian state is the injured party in this conflict ... have at it.

My comments ... are for the taking or the leaving. If they are useful to readers, then good. If not, then my view is, that is also okay.

But, yeah, I think Putin's "government" is a kleptocracy of oligarchs. And I think there is nothing to admire there.

Do you want some balance? Yes, I have no doubt that Ukraine is not a country of angels. Sure, there is corruption in their government. But here's the thing: the internal issues of Ukraine don't give Russia a green light to invade Ukraine.

That is where you and I don't see eye to eye.

Cheers

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: PatriotGames4u
a reply to: Xcathdra


Ukraine getting 1000 t72s in a few days is an absolute game changer!

This means they can go directly to the eastern front to meet the invading russians without pulling too much out of Kiev as russia retreats.


Poland getting M1s goes a long way to slamming the Poland door on putin.

They might want to hold some back. I am seeing reports that Russian units in Transnistria (Moldova) are going to enter the war. The can either come from behind and sack Odessa or they can come up behind Ukraine units advancing towards Kherson.

I heard that Putin is very hesitant to sack or destroy any historic buildings in the city of Odessa; even though Putin's artillery and airpower attacked the oil refinery and fuel depot in Odessa today, with some civilian buildings being destroyed.

Ukrainian Foreign Minister: The Real War Is About To Begin In The South!

originally posted by: Grimpachi

You should really look into the "whatever that is" part.

You should really look into the blowing up the country part... Are you suggesting that Russia isn't in the top 5 countries positioning for power all over the world to where they can't do that without physically invading?

Where have you been looking? Because I am seeing plenty of people that want nothing to do with Ukraine. Those people are talking for themselves on camera. It isn't some media station telling you what they are saying or the government explaining what they want. It's the people still in the streets as explosions can be heard saying it.

You kind of left all my factual points out of your reply, so I guess you agree with what I wrote. 44 million there, what is plenty? The people can vote for someone else if there are enough that want some change or do whatever, but we are talking about another country invading a sovereign nation to consume them.

a reply to: dragonridr

Yes we do mostly all appear to be singing from the same to similar hymn sheet for the first time in a long time.

Nations, people, and all sorts of different types.

Fact of the matter is there is generally a silver lining to be had if you look hard enough where most problems are concerned.

As long as we can keep the simplistic right vs left mentality to a minimum that divides us and pulls us apart at the seams from within i think most of us understand which side of the fence we find ourselves upon, and its not fecking Russia's.

Ukraine Armed Forces Take Down Another Russian SU-27 or SU-30 Jet Fighter

a reply to: andy06shake

It seems some CT'ers have a black-and-white view of the Russia:Ukraine War. One side has to be the "white hats" and the other side has to be the "black hats".

Were the world ever so cut and dried.

I rather suspect the situation is considerably more nuanced.

For my part, I suggest that Putin is neither white- nor black-hat. He is a "Russian Hat" in the sense that his objectives reflect Russian national agendas that go back for centuries.

A purely conventional view, I admit.

Cheers

a reply to: F2d5thCavv2

The whole entine shebang and situation is obviously a lot more complicated than us mere plebs are ever going to be privy to.

Thing is end of the day us plebs are the ones who pay the price, and without such the chessboard does not move much.

I'm old enough to remember the last cold war nonsense, 80s/90s type affair, what came after was so much better, less the at least implied or obvious threat of constant destruction.

Lets take the unity and do something with it before it runs out of steam might be an idea, so there is that, or maybe ive just had one to many Sunday afternoon/early evening GnT. LoL