Russia Ukraine Update Thread - part 2

a reply to: xpert11

I can't stress this enough; China will only do what China see's fit.
It's only considerations are what it perceives is China's best interests and in this case I suspect it would involve dragging the situation in Ukraine out for quite some time yet.
A constant war of attrition, a stalemate sustained by a drip feeding of resources. Sufficient enough to help maintain Russia's presence in Ukraine but not enough to enable Russia to achieve its goals.
China wouldn't mind Russia being weakened....but not too much.
At some point they'll pull the plug.

At the same time Putin will become under increasing pressure domestically - at least I hope so.
I can't see certain elements within Russia and even the Kremlin itself putting up with a long running, and slightly embarrassing, stand off that achieves nothing of worth or value.
Ultimately they'll want a get out and a scapegoat....and Putin could fit the bill; he's getting old, he's no longer as astute and switched on as he was and his dreams of personal glory may already run contrary to Russia's best interests.

But as you correctly point out, Russia needs a get out that doesn't result in them returning in 10, 20 or however many years time bigger, badder, stronger and more prepared and resolute.

a reply to: Freeborn

Nicely stated, concerning China's broader considerations tied to Ukraine. If China's goal is to invade Siberia under the guise of liberation, then the weakening of Putin's regime is within their consideration. But if the Chinese desire U.S. military resources withdrawn from Asia and the Pacific, then Russia conquering Ukraine and embarking upon a broader Western European war suits their interests.

In short, the war in Ukraine is at the heart of determining the course of events that will define the 25 - 50 years.

a reply to: xpert11

In short, the war in Ukraine is at the heart of determining the course of events that will define the 25 - 50 years.

Most definitely.

Which is why simply sitting back, washing our hands of the affair and watching from a distance can not be an option.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Here's an interesting link to Ukraine National Guard from 2014. You know who rolled into Ukraine in 2014 and it

ukraineantifascistsolidarity.wordpress.com...

TextUkrainian National Guard soldier wearing nazi SS insignia Posted on October 10, 2014 by ukraineantifascistsolidarity Two pictures distributed by Associated Press show a Ukrainian National Guard soldier wearing insignia of the nazi military organisation SS Waffen in his hat and arm while being reviewed by Prime Minister Yatseniuk. The AP description of the pictures says: A Ukrainian volunteer soldier with emblems of WWII SS Galician division that had fought against the Soviet Army, waits to be sent to the country’s east in a military base in the village of Novi Petrivtsi near Kiev Tuesday, Sept. 30, 2014. (AP Photo/Efrem Lukasky) The picture was taken on September 30 at the National Guard training camp in Novi Petrivtsi. The reason the photographer was there was that the National Guard soldiers were being reviewed by the Prime Minister Yatseniuk before being sent to the front, as can be seen in the AP pictures following these two ones:

a reply to: Waterglass

This requires a history lesson on Ukraine to understand why someone would wear this when the Russians invaded Ukraine. In Ukraine, the Waffen-SS Division "Galicia" has not been recognized as belligerent at the state level. Nevertheless, their activities are honored at the local level. The first Ukrainian army was created from the Waffen ss division. In addition to the annual marches dedicated to this military formation, Lviv has several memorial plaques in honor of the Division "Galicia" soldiers. The Ukrainian Galacian Army did not swear allegiance to Hitler but instead swore allegiance to Ukraine and played a major role in their liberation. This division effectively was the start of Ukraine's army At the end of April 1945, Pavlo Shandruk, the commander-in-chief of the Ukrainian National Army, arrives at the location of the division. Part of the division takes a new oath and on April 24, 1945, the division formally received the name “1st Ukrainian Division of the UNA (1 UD UNA)”

So they look a this very differently and see this group as defenders of Ukraine. A great example is in Lviv there is a monument and the inscription "Here rests an unknown soldier of the Division "Galicia", who gave his life for the freedom of the Ukrainian people" that links the idea of creating the division and its operations with the idea of struggle for independence, not mentioning, however, the division's being part of the Waffen-SS troops.

a reply to: dragonridr

I will admit that I totally do not understand their affliction with Nazi's. There is still something more to this along with the Ukraine massacres in 2014.

HOWEVER, The USA and world is cascading towards a Tyranny government. NATO said recently they didn't notice Nazi symbology on Ukraine soldiers, Putin mentions Nazis.

Check

a reply to: Waterglass

The part many do not get is the Germans actually freed the Ukrainian people from Stalin. To them, he was far worse than Hitler. The Germans in Ukraine actually treated them well compared to Stalin who deported them and tried to starve the entire country millions died under Russian rule.

a reply to: dragonridr

Its complicated to the extreme over there as they simply hate each other thus the mass killings of civilians by the Russians. Its practically biblical as even the Russian Orthodox priests are on the front lines

a reply to: Waterglass

and?

a reply to: Xcathdra

Well Putin has been talking Nazis and another thread on ATS provides the complete unbiased story that isn't being told to the world as to what actually took place in 2014.

Give it a read and get back to us.

a reply to: Waterglass

Does it also consider the many Moscow funded Neo-Nazi Russian Militia operating in both Luhansk and Donetsk for many years now and who are fighting alongside regular Russian forces at present?

Anti-Semitism, Nazi imagery and ideology and both Holocaust denial and open support for it are far more common and rife throughout the whole of Eastern Europe than it is Western Europe, North America etc.

Its also worth considering that Zelensky and many other leading Ukrainians accused of Nazism are Jews.

And would Azov Regiment be so pro-Zelensky and his regime if they were such rabid and virulent Nazi's?

There's lots of grey's involved here, nothing is as clear cut as Putin and his acolytes would have you believe.
I guess the same could be said about the other side as well.

a reply to: Freeborn

You may be right as our world is loaded with countermeasures

a reply to: xpert11

China respects Russia's territorial integrity. Also, China keeps an eye on Kurils in case Japan invades Kurils with the US's encouragement. If Japan invades Kurils, then China invades Okinawa to prevent Japanese annexation of Kurils.

unbiased reply. They actually care for the civilian population and need to extract them from ukrainian soldiers using civilian population as shield. Not exactly an easy task to do.
meanwhile ukraine destroyed all bridges.
I guess if russia would go full scale and flatens everything, they'd go faster.

at least that is my current understanding.

a reply to: johndulles

"They actually care for the civilian population and need to extract them from ukrainian soldiers using civilian population as shield."

If it wasn't so tragically sad and pathetic that would be one of the funniest posts I've seen on here in ages.

a reply to: Freeborn
hi there,

do you have first hand information on the nazis on russian side?
Only saw the kiev battalions so far. They made nazi war criminals national heros.
Zelenkis was making fun about "mein kampf" in media shows.
I even saw camps for children getting drilled.

Couldn't find the counter part on the russian side.

a reply to: johndulles

Try harder.

And welcome to ATS.

Just what we need right now. Not.

Russia has 4 times the population of Ukraine. And that's not counting rebels. In a war of attribution Russia has the edge. Also, Russia has a fairly potent military industrial complex to replace losses. It is to Russia's benefit to drag the war out.

Terminator makes combat debut.

twitter.com...

For reference:

a reply to: muhfuzzball


chrisbeetles.com...