Russia Ukraine Update Thread

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: PatriotGames4u

So all of your sources are from the UN?


Ther is not an eye-roll emote on here that comes close to what I wish to express. lol

No, but my 'rest of the world' statement was based on the U.N., not 'western media' or russian propagandists.

originally posted by: McGinty
That’s a statement that is only ever made by those for whom the past is uncomfortable and undermines their narrative.

I am afraid that I disagree. Every conflict is unique. It's pointless trying to compare it to the past, because all comparison is subjective. The problem at hand is that Russia has invaded a peaceful neighbour - a sovereign state.

There are parallels with how Russia is doing this, including Russia's inclination to destroy cities and ethnically cleanse, mainly due to their lack of precision munitions and their lack of political inhibitions when it comes to "collateral" damage, or human rights. Ethnic cleansing in Georgia, and the ruin of Grozny and Aleppo, provides a window into the Russian tactics. We now have Mariupol destroyed and reports of Ukrainian civilians and children being shipped to Russia against their will.

a reply to: PacificViking


They were russian invaders on internationally recognized Ukrainian soil.

Doesn't matter what the scalp count was.

a reply to: PatriotGames4u

No we have to wait because you can't dispute the facts.
YOU HAVE NO ANSWER.
You are a hollow drum.

a reply to: Imhere

Time to iron curtain Crimea and East of Dnipro.

I have no idea how old you are.
Were you alive during The Cold War?
Did you ever see what it was like for those living behind the Iron Curtain?
Have you ever even spoken to anyone who experienced first hand what it was like?

Which is understandable.

Is it?
Why?

The millions of Russians there with decades upon decades there with ages old cemeteries… have a right and independence and self government.

Do they?
What about the Ukrainians who have lived there a damn sight longer than the Russians?
Do they right to independence and self-government?

In Donetsk Oblast - one of the two major contested areas - there are indeed a large number of ethnic Russians living there. But they are still in the minority.
Only 38% of the people there identify as ethnic Russian or of Russian descent.
And not all of them wish for independence from Ukraine or integration into Greater Russia.

In Luhansk Oblast - the other major contested area - there are more ethnic Russians living there.
39% are Russian.
Ukrainians are still the overwhelming majority.

So, just to be clear about this, you think the minority Russians should be able to force the majority Ukrainians into either independent pro-Russian nations or even become part of some sort of Greater Russian Empire?

Reportedly the commander of the Azov battalion has been captured.



I

originally posted by: PacificViking
a reply to: PatriotGames4u

No we have to wait because you can't dispute the facts.
YOU HAVE NO ANSWER.
You are a hollow drum.

Funny.

The region that russia now calls dombas is still considered part of Ukraine by the U.N.

You made the claim that it was not, it's up to you to prove it, not me.

a reply to: PatriotGames4u


Ukraine was Russian territory until 1994, when Russia granted recognition in August 1994 in return for guarantees given by Ukraine, never to acquire nuclear weapons. On 19 February Zelensky said Ukraine would no longer recognize the Budapest Memorandum, which in effect renounced Ukraine's sovereignty granted by Russia in 1994.

a reply to: PatriotGames4u


Ukraine was Russian territory until 1994, when Russia granted recognition in August 1994 in return for guarantees given by Ukraine, never to acquire nuclear weapons. On 19 February Zelensky said Ukraine would no longer recognize the Budapest Memorandum, which in effect renounced Ukraine's sovereignty granted by Russia in 1994.

originally posted by: PacificViking
a reply to: PatriotGames4u

i have no need of your childish games. Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, Valery Zaluzhny, revealed in an intercepted conference call, that Poland plans to invade Western Ukraine . It is already widely known.

On 26 March 2022 Poland demanded return of Kaliningrad.

Poland demands return of Kaliningrad



Go figure...

From day one Zalenski is asking the nato countries to help him defeat russia.. He is not interested in the consequences of such help. What does this say about this man..? Of course I am against this war and invasion of russia but people should try to prevent this war from spreading out. Poland invading Ukraine is such a stupid idea..as a matter of fact so stupid that the nato should wish them well and leave it at that.

I noticed that from day one no effort is being made to end this war. All I see is pouring more oil on the fire...not only with words from our leaders but also with these sanctions. One would almost say that the objective is a ww3.

a reply to: zatara


"What does this say about this man?"


That he's a politician trying to give someone the impression that he's doing everything he can to save his country from a russian invasion and what he sees as ww3 already underway.

No different than any other politician, and no indication of any actual beliefs or desires, also the same as any other politician.

a reply to: PacificViking


Yup, that's the russian version of events.

Then russia just 'recognized' dombas as independent as a result of this fairy tale of exclusionary history.

A recognition that the U.N. still refuses to provide after 8 years of angry thrashing by putin.

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: McGinty
That’s a statement that is only ever made by those for whom the past is uncomfortable and undermines their narrative.

I am afraid that I disagree. Every conflict is unique. It's pointless trying to compare it to the past, because all comparison is subjective. The problem at hand is that Russia has invaded a peaceful neighbour - a sovereign state.

There are parallels with how Russia is doing this, including Russia's inclination to destroy cities and ethnically cleanse, mainly due to their lack of precision munitions and their lack of political inhibitions when it comes to "collateral" damage, or human rights. Ethnic cleansing in Georgia, and the ruin of Grozny and Aleppo, provides a window into the Russian tactics. We now have Mariupol destroyed and reports of Ukrainian civilians and children being shipped to Russia against their will.

As a reply I’ll take the liberty of repeating PacificViking’s post (thank you PV), since doing doing a far better job that I at making a case for this being a nuanced situation best portrayed in shades of grey, rather than black and white. Why? Not because Putin’s not being a warmonger - he’s proven his callus ruthlessness on several occasions. But because unless we acknowledge and grapple with truths on the negotiating table, rather than playing it like a a game of poker, then this conflict, like many poker conflicts of the past in which feet on the ground are mere canon fodder, will drag on and on…

originally posted by: PacificViking
a reply to: PatriotGames4u


Ukraine was Russian territory until 1994, when Russia granted recognition in August 1994 in return for guarantees given by Ukraine, never to acquire nuclear weapons. On 19 February Zelensky said Ukraine would no longer recognize the Budapest Memorandum, which in effect renounced Ukraine's sovereignty granted by Russia in 1994.

This doesn’t justify invasion of sovereign territory, but it does give it context. If the west refuse to acknowledge that context and make adjustments that all parties can live with, such as no nukes for Ukraine, then it’s tough to Villainise Putin for taking the initiative to prevent having a new nuclear power on his doorstep.

a reply to: McGinty


Did Ukraine build any nukes?


Also, does that mean we can invade Iran now?

Or Iran can invade Israel now?

Or russia can invade Japan now?


Your logic needs some work.

a reply to: zatara

This is exactly the picture I’ve seen too. Maybe Zelenskyy a selfless hero… maybe Zelenskyy wants to keep his presidency at any cost.

Western nation could indeed argue that Ukraine must push back Putin as they fear he’ll carry on into other nations if victorious in Ukraine.

But I also see western nation exploiting this as on opportunity to topple Putin by continuing to supply Ukraine with just enough weaponry to make the war un-winnable by either side. They hope that eventually the human and financial costs to Russia will undo him. That’s ruthless and reckless game of chicken to play.

a reply to: PacificViking

i have no need of your childish games.

Instead you'll play one of your own.

Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, Valery Zaluzhny, revealed in an intercepted conference call,....

A conference call to and with who?
Who intercepted it?
Where is the transcript?

.... that Poland plans to invade Western Ukraine .

Has Poland the power and resources to invade Western Ukraine?

What do you think the implications for Poland would be?
How do you think their NATO allies would react?
How do you think the EU would react?

Could you imagine Putin's reaction to that?

When was the last time Poland invaded anywhere?

It is already widely known.

By whom?

On 26 March 2022 Poland demanded return of Kaliningrad.

One person as far as I can tell.
And what is the likelihood of it ever happening?

originally posted by: PatriotGames4u
a reply to: McGinty


Did Ukraine build any nukes?


Also, does that mean we can invade Iran now?

Or Iran can invade Israel now?

Or russia can invade Japan now?


Your logic needs some work.

If we did invade Iran over the nuke program, then ending that invasion would mean Iran agreeing to stop the program. Likewise that will need to be promised here.

I’m not saying Putin is right or wrong to invade for this or any other reason. I’m saying that now he’s done that the reasons need to be acknowledged, not denied. How else can the comprises needed to satisfy both parties be made.

Debating who’s wrong and right is a childish debate. The debate that matters is what does it take to end this asap in a way that doesn’t invite future hostilities. That’s a fine line to walk.

originally posted by: zatara
What we hear and see is that russia seems to be disorganized and incompetent to wage war. I hear senior officers say that putin is embarresing himself with this invasion.

What I know is that the russians have advanced technology and a well oiled war machine with experienced soldiers. Putin is a fox and they play chess very well in russia. It would be a very big mistake to under estimate the russian army. Maybe its all by design that the capture of ukraine is going this difficult..

Sure. Everything is going according to Putin's plan. He himself and his lackies have to constantly remind this to the public, though. Wonder why...



It's about time Putin learns this life lesson: Not everything works out in life, baby

originally posted by: McGinty

originally posted by: PatriotGames4u
a reply to: McGinty


Did Ukraine build any nukes?


Also, does that mean we can invade Iran now?

Or Iran can invade Israel now?

Or russia can invade Japan now?


Your logic needs some work.

If we did invade Iran over the nuke program, then ending that invasion would mean Iran agreeing to stop the program. Likewise that will need to be promised here.

I’m saying Putin is right or wrong to invade for this reason. I’m saying that now he’s done that the reasons need to be acknowledged, not denied and comprises made.

Debating who’s wrong and right is a childish debate. The debate that matters is what does it take to end this asap in a way that doesn’t invite future hostilities. That’s a fine line to walk.

Is no question who is right or wrong, putin invaded Ukraine.

That was wrong.

A wrong that is jot justified by the likelihood of previous wrongs.

What exactly is there to compromise on, is russia going to rebuild the country and bring back the dead?

The world doesn't need any more Chamberlains trying to pacify folks with hitleresq intentions.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
Another issue Putin just created for himself. By disengaging in Kiev and claiming his forces are shifting to deal with the donbass area, that action frees up a lot of Ukrainian troops. Troops that can be used against Russia and the east to push russia out of Ukraine.

Putin has shot himself in the foot once again...

Does that include Crimea too?

Crimea is set in stone.

Think the west will go to war or exchange nukes for Ukraine? Especially for Crimea?

Whether Putin is gone or not, Crimea is a done deal.