It's ILLOGICAL to think God didn't Create the Universe

originally posted by: cooperton
You want him to prove, with logic, that humans have a logical Creator?

Not with logic, with empirical evidence.

Thats like asking a bird to prove that flight exists.

How is that any different than when they ask it of others?

originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: PaPaTaco
I'm more than happy to... (but you most likely wont accept it)

but not before you answer my question....

I am an honest person and am willing to lay all my cards of belief down on the table and sift thru them to pull out the ones that are false and hold onto the ones that are true.

Well that's a pretty good start... (If you're being honest) but I'll go with the scriptures that say.... "Trust No Man" and "Let God Be True and Every Man a Liar. As it is written... So that you may be proved right when you speak and victorious when you judge." Romans 3:4

but if you are truly willing to lay all your cards down on the table and inspect them with true itegrity only seeking the truth... then prepare for a lifetime of examination, seeking and hungering after truth....

However again... even this is just plain vanity of vanities.... (says the preacher)

Searching out all things is vexxing... so it's best to just Love God and Love our neighbors as ourselves... eat, drink and be merry.... and do what pleases God... (Which can't be done in our flesh...only by the spirit)

I bet that's not the intro you were looking for.... but add this to those cards....

So where would you like to begin.... My testimony (in short) or should we focus on where we live?

Both prove the existence of YHVH...

a reply to: cooperton

It's a game at this point....and I'm willing to play... (for the love of Truth, Jesus and my fellow man)

Again however the mind and flesh can not and will not accept this or these evidences.... Only by the spirit will he/she or anyone really "Seek and Find", "Knock and be Answered"

But I'm willing to be a vessel of love and truth....

This may take awhile tho... if you're in for the long haul.

originally posted by: PaPaTaco
So where would you like to begin.... My testimony (in short) or should we focus on where we live?

Let's go with your testimony.

originally posted by: daskakik

How is that any different than when they ask it of others?

Trying to prove an illogical source with logic is an oxymoron.

Not with logic, with empirical evidence.

What would constitute empirical evidence for you? Miracles in the name of God? God coming to earth and speaking to the world about the truth? Biological organisms consisting of precise machine-like processes? Historical tracing back to the origin of humankind from God??

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: daskakik

It's your game. You keep asking people to "prove it" and I just said it is now your turn.

You want him to prove, with logic, that humans have a logical Creator?

Thats like asking a bird to prove that flight exists. It goes without saying, unless you're being a dodo or something

If you could show us that sentient life existed before the emergence of human society on Earth, that would be an interesting place to start examining how theism evolved from the advent of language. The timeline of civilization is a bit wonky but there's no evidence of theology preceding humans, all evidence indicates we (as in our ancestors) invented it.

originally posted by: cooperton
Trying to prove an illogical source with logic is an oxymoron.

Have you proven it is illogical beyond your own opinion?

What would constitute empirical evidence for you? Miracles in the name of God? God coming to earth and speaking to the world about the truth? Biological organisms consisting of precise machine-like processes? Historical tracing back to the origin of humankind from God??

You showing me god existed before the universe. That was the claim. You got that?

a reply to: cooperton

It seems we live in a chaotic entropic universe according to some, I’d love to know the explanation for the ordered systems you describe in such a place.

It’s like suggesting with enough time the wind will blow the sand on a beach into a perfectly uniform and structured sand castle without intelligent interference.

a reply to: daskakik

13 Now who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is good? 14 But even if you should suffer for righteousness’ sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled, 15 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, 16 having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame. 17 For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God’s will, than for doing evil.

There's my intro for be willing to "Prove It" (My Faith and or Where We Live/Creation)

Fast Forwarding most of my childhood years.... Allow me to focus on one event in my life that keeps and holds my faith...

When I was Pre K.... I noticed a buner on the stove was on... red hot... being a child with an inquisitive mind, I climbed up on the counter and wondered what that red hot burner felt like.... It was so pretty and red... So what I did is I tested all the black burners first... I placed my entire hand on them one by one.... then I came to the red one.... That's when I screamed in pain... I had placed my entire hand down on the red hot burner....

My mom rushed down to me and instantly put my hand in a cold bowl of water... I was then taken to the hospital... (I remember this a clear as yesterday)

What I remember next are the Doctors eventually wrapping my hand in what I would call a big white boxing glove... The Dr's told my parents that my hand would most likely be unusable/crippled due to the severity of the burn into the tendons and deep layers...etc etc...

At this point I do not remember any pain, but I do remember being prayed over.... The church we attended also began to pray... as I'm sure others who heard the news also began to pray....

Come the next morning (So approx 24hrs from my burn) the Dr's unwrapped my hand and to their dismay, there was "NO BURN" only just fresh pink skin where the burn was.

To this day I can see my Dad standing in church giving this testimony several times... I personally know that "God" (YHVH/Jesus) is a healer. He is alive and he answers prayers. He healed me!

Then in 1987 I finally made my profession of faith... (13 years old, when The Father called me to the Son... and by Grace Thru Faith... The confession of my mouth and belief in my heart that I know he saved me) I can not tell you how clean and white as snow I felt inside... (Since then I have been a horrible wretch on many occassions... I didn't live up to my end, but he has always been faithful and lived up to His)

Fast Forwarding and juming past many things... When I was 16, my older brother passed in a car wreck... It devastated me...even to this day has left its lingering effects of PTSD..., but on my 17th Birthday... (a few weeks after He passed) he came to me in my bedroom... and we spoke (when I could finally get his name out of my mouth, that's how afraid I was... at first...) but he eventually sat on my bed...and we spoke...

I first asked him if he was in Heaven... to which he replied "Yes" he was... His eyes were piercing and his hair perfect.... We spoke about some things that I did not find out that were true until later (regarding his GF)...

IDk how long this lasted, but I finally told him he should go, because I saw my Dad get out of bed and was coming our way.... (Why I did and said that I have no idea... Why didn't I jump up and wake everyone up???) My only explanation is that I was not in this ethereal realm at that moment.... but much like Young Guns... "I was in the spirit world"

Why do I say that... well.. the next day I asked myself how did you see Dad. So I went and got in the exact position I was in on my bed when we spoke... and in order for me to see into my Dads rooms I would have had to see thru 2 walls. (My wall and the hallway wall) So this had me questioning even more. I decided to go ask my Dad... "Did you get out of bed last night" to which he replied... "Yes I did... I thought I heard Tony knocking on the front door..." (like he would do when he came home late)

This is more proof to me and something I hold onto in my faith walk.... There are so many stories I could tell where I shouldn't be here... Jesus taking over the wheel while I drove Drunk and High, not remembering how I got home driving down the mountain... or how I could speak about His grace and mercy I do not deserve....

So many events in my life... Times I was stupid and peered into the darkside and times when the darkside messed with me.... Only to pleed the blood of Christ to make them flee....

By now, I'm sure this all sounds like a fantasy story.... I've made it up.... but this is my life story (some of it) This is my testimony of faith...

I'll end with a couple stories.... A few years back... I had a dream vision one night... you know the dream/vision that you can neither tell if you and here or there, but it is so real it must be real.... and not just a dream.

Anywho in this dream vision I found myself in a large room up on a stage looking down at people milling about... Then all of the sudden "HE" entered the room.... and let me tell you... we all fell to our knees... Personally... I was on my knees face down bawling... I knew what a wretch I was... so sorry for my sin... heavy tears of sorrow... That is when He (Jesus) approached me.... I did not look up... I did not see his face, but I knew who He was... and His spirit/love is indescribable... The love that comes from him...just enveloped my entire being... and he said "I Love and Forgive You"

I hold onto that today...even in my hours or doubt and trial. Thru my temptations, struggles & mockers. That love friend... I wish I could let you feel it... It is not earthly love... it is something so pure and holy and surrounds you and goes thru you... it is eternal and everlasting... I'm sitting here tyring to describe what can not be described. but it and He is true and alive.

My final account is a bit of an odd one... My cell phone rang one day. I didn't know the # so I ignored it. (I often ignore most calls) but for some reason I decided this day to call it back. So I did, but no asnwer so I hung up... A few minutes later my phone rings again.... same number... so I decided to answer...

Hello I said... and on the other end was some old ladies voice looking for someone who was not me.... I tried to get her to understand I was not who she was looking for, but she insisted... she insisted to the point that she had this number in her phone so she had to know me.... LOL... I really didn't know what to do or say... she wasn't taking a "No I'm not the person you're looking for" for an answer... So unlike me I decided to roll with it and help her figure out who she was trying to find....

That phone call ended up being atleast an hour... we spoke about a great many things. I was able to share with her the knowledge that Cannabis Oil can cure Cancer... she took that information and soaked it up... (She had a little knowledge about CBD already...) Then out of the blue she goes on to tell me.... "God is pleased with me for the things I talk about." (On facebook) How in the world would she know what I speak about. (I used to post some very deep things on FB on many subjects, exposing the dark with His light and or just ministering

TBC.

a reply to: PaPaTaco

Very true, we were thinking alike.

to my friends about Jesus....

Anywho... that totally tripped me out and made me cry.... Here I am crying with an old lady on the phone who I have no clue who she is, but here we are talking and ministering to one another and sharing things that help both of us....

Becore we got off the phone we decided to pray for eachother.... She had Cancer... so I went on to pray for her...thanking God for her... I cant remember all I said or prayed, but I remember praying for her healing from this cancer.... She went on to pray for me....

After we finished she told me how she felt a tingle or a move go thru her body when I prayed over her....

To this day this phone call blows my mind.... and I never heard from her again...

To wrap this incomplete testimony up.... there have been so many times I have had prayer answered... and someimes some of God's greatest gifts are unanswered prayers.... (He knew what I was aking for was not good and closed doors.... he's also opened a few of them which we prayed for and left in His hands...)

So does my testimony "Prove It" to you.... I doubt it speaks much of anything to your flesh.... but if you are truly willing to lay those cards down on the table and sift thru them.... willing to seek out the truth.... it will be found...

Jesus says "Seek and you will find"... "Knock and the door will be opened to you"


MATTHEW 7
Do Not Judge
1“Judge not, that you be not judged. 2For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
6“Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.

Keep Asking, Seeking, Knocking
7“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him! 12Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
The Narrow Way
13“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Are you truly and honest man seeking my friend....??? Are your burdens heavy... do you want to lay them down on that table....and sift thru them....discarding what is fasle/lies and do you really want to pick up the ones that are true....

Jesus says

Rest for the Weary
…27All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him. 28Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.…

This is not a head thing.... this is not a "Scientific Theory"... This is real life.... this is eternity we're talking about here.... This is about yours and my spirit/soul.... This is about Life and Death.... Thi sis about knowing and being known....

Romans 10
English Standard Version
10 Brothers,1 my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that bthey have a zeal for God, cbut not according to knowledge. 3 For, being ignorant of dthe righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4 For eChrist is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.2

The Message of Salvation to All

5 For fMoses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that gthe person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6 But hthe righteousness based on faith says, i“Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the jabyss?’ ” (that is, kto bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? l“The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if myou confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and nbelieve in your heart othat God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, p“Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 qFor there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; rfor the same Lord is Lord of all, sbestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For t“everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him uof whom they have never heard?3 And how are they to hear vwithout someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, w“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But xthey have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, y“Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So zfaith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

18 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for

a“Their voice has gone out bto all the earth,

and their words to the ends of the world.”

You want me to prove it.... I can prove it by and thru my testimony.... which all points back to "Him" (YHVH/Jesus)

I don't make this stuff up or speak on my own accord... I'm here to be honest with the text and my comments...willing to love my God and neighbor as myself, regardless of the mocking....

The scriptures are true my friend....

TBC...

The sciptures are the word of truth my friend....

By Grace Through Faith
2 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body[a] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But[c] God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

One in Christ
11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens,[d] but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by[e] the Spirit.

There is only one way to eternal life.... One way to the Father... who created all things (John 1, Genesis 1, Romans 1:18-23, Job 37 and Job 38, Psalm 19 and so so so many more)

You want me to prove that he created this earth and the heavens which we look up and see the Sun, Moon and Stars placed in the firmament in....???

Well again... you have to be willing to lay all your cards down on that table.... just how intellectually honest do you want to be... Do you really want to know the truth and the truth to set you free.... or do you just want to play the game of back n forth here on ATS...???

Anywho.... we can certainly discuss creation and how we go out and can use the scientific method to test where we live and then compare it to what the scriptures or most all ancient cultures say about the shape of the earth.... We can certainly look into archeology that proves the many ancient accounts of the Bible....

Or I guess we can say things like.... "Lame" or "Billions of Years Old" and "Science Proves The Big Bang" or "Prove It"

Whatever we want to debate i guess we can debate, but honestly I'm not here to debate... It's draining and I don't have the time/stomach for it anymore.... I'm strictly here to share His truth in Love the best I can...in the hopes I help or reach atleast just one.... regardless who denies it and mocks me for it....

So with that...that is the end of my intro into "Proving It" thru my testimony of faith....

Up next if anyone wishes is the examination of the earth and what we can see in the sky above us....

Peace....

Sorry for any spelling or grammatical errors above and for that bold white text... IDk what I'm doing around here being so new.... I'm learning on the fly....

a reply to: PaPaTaco
You were correct, I don't accept that as proof of god being there before the universe.

That doesn't mean I don't believe you, it is just that one is only connected to the other because you were drawn to god as the answer.

I mean obviously religion was part of your upbringing and science doesn't even attempt to give answers for those types of experiences so what other conclusion could you have come to?

originally posted by: daskakik
a reply to: PaPaTaco
You were correct, I don't accept that as proof of god being there before the universe.

I knew it wouldnt be.... However (I'm called to give an asnwer for my faith) I know 45 minutes is not enough to examine everything which I shared... (More examination would come by way of testing the earth and creation...so I get it)

Again my friend...are you willing to throw all your cards on the table.... The ones you currently understand and believe amongst the ones you currently do not understand and disbelieve... If one is truly honest and seeking, one will find. That has been promised to you and me... Don't bother trying to prove me wrong... try to prove yourself right...

That's fair enough.... everything I told you was the truth as it has happened and played out in my life... My flesh is certainly not drawn to the ways of God.... (altho I want it to be) but by and thru His spirit I am learning how to train the flesh to submit to Him/the spirit... So I understand why you may think what you think as to your comment that is what I was looking for or drawn too....

So yes in my life I have sought him out (and wisdom), but make no bones about he... He called me... (and he calls you) not the other way around...

Church was a very big part of my upbringing... (I haven't really attended church in the organized sense for the last 20 years] but my faith and attempts to be obedient, study His word are much more important to me in my current stage of life.... So my conclusions are what they are... based on my life experiences... and my hunger to seek out truth...

Anywho... blessings dude..

originally posted by: PaPaTaco
I knew it wouldnt be.... However (I'm called to give an asnwer for my faith) I know 45 minutes is not enough to examine everything which I shared... (More examination would come by way of testing the earth and creation...so I get it)

I read fast and I skipped all the bible quotes.

Again my friend...are you willing to throw all your cards on the table.... The ones you currently understand and believe amongst the ones you currently do not understand and disbelieve... If one is truly honest and seeking, one will find. That has been promised to you and me... Don't bother trying to prove me wrong... try to prove yourself right...

You talk like you know what I believe.

That's fair enough.... everything I told you was the truth as it has happened and played out in my life... My flesh is certainly not drawn to the ways of God.... (altho I want it to be) but by and thru His spirit I am learning how to train the flesh to submit to Him/the spirit... So I understand why you may think what you think as to your comment that is what I was looking for or drawn too.... So yes in my life have sought him out, but make no bones about he... He called me... not the other way around...

You misunderstand what I am saying. You had events that you could not explain and the only place to turn was the religion you grew up in.

Church was a very big part of my upbringing... (i haven't really attended church in the organized sense for the last 20 years] but my faith and attempts to be obedient are much more important to me in my current stage of life.... So my conclusions are what they are... based on my life experiences... and my hunger to seek out truth...

Anywho... blessings dude..

If you are an honest person you will examine this and realize why it isn't proof of what you claimed.

a reply to: daskakik

If you skipped all the Bible passages then you "lied" and were not honest with yourself or me.... (But hey I don't judge)

I talk like it sounds like you don't believe in God/Jesus or creation, but you're willing to prove me wrong...

Fair enough... but I also think you may be misunderstanding me... All those events I could and can relate to My Father/Creator and Saviour reaching out to me or protecting, covering, healing me... I wasn't perplexed by them... amazed and stunned maybe yes.... bot not without explanation...

My honesty comes from the spirit within me... (However I have always been a truther ever since I was a little kid... truth and honesty have played a big role in my life) However if I told you I have never lied which makes me a liar would in fact be dishonest.... Which is why I said "Let God Be True and Every Man a Liar..." and "Trust No Man"

Everything I said and posted above is infact 100% undeniable truth, (proof) regardless if the reader has the ears to hear or the eyes to see.... But hey... the world didn't listen to or believe the only begotten son of God, so I don't expect it to listen to or believe me either...

On a side note...maybe you can teach me something.... How do I break up the quotes like you do and respond to each one...

Thx dude

originally posted by: PaPaTaco
If you skipped all the Bible passages then you "lied" and were not honest with yourself or me.... (But hey I don't judge)

Wrong, you asked me to lay down my cards of belief, not to take yours into account.

I talk like it sounds like you don't believe in God/Jesus or creation, but you're willing to prove me wrong...

I don't believe in god/Jesus but creation is a possibility, but I never said I could prove any of it one way or the other.

Fair enough... but I also think you may be misunderstanding me... All those events I could and can relate to My Father/Creator and Saviour reaching out to me or protecting, covering, healing me... I wasn't perplexed by them... amazed and stunned maybe yes.... bot not without explanation...

So you had the god explanation prepared even before the events.

Everything I said and posted above is infact 100% undeniable truth, (proof) regardless if the reader has the ears to hear or the eyes to see.... But hey... the world didn't listen to or believe the only begotten son of God, so I don't expect it to listen to or believe me either...

When I was about 11 I was visited by what I, at that time, called an angel of god. I also didn't need an explanation because I also knew in my heart what it was and who sent it. I know exactly what you mean by that love that you could not put into words.

That is 100% true but it isn't proof of god and even further from being proof that "In the beginning was God".

On a side note...maybe you can teach me something.... How do I break up the quotes like you do and respond to each one...

You place (quote) at the beginning of the text you want to reply to and (/quote) at the end but use brackets instead of parentheses.

You can't nest them, if you try only part of the text shows up.

a reply to: daskakik

Hmmm OK I thought I tried that.... guess I did it wrong....

a reply to: PaPaTaco
If you mean in this post: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Go to it and press quote and you will see that you ended up with the (/quote) tags at both the beginning and at the end of what you wanted to quote.