It's ILLOGICAL to think God didn't Create the Universe

originally posted by: Iconic
a reply to: neoholographic

I think you're very confused.

It's illogical to believe in a god, or a god who created the universe. That is literally the definition of illogical.

You cannot use logic to believe in a god. Thats where "faith" comes into play.

Faith is to believe something in lieu of evidence, or logic.

You christians are whacky as hell when it comes to science. Just stay out of science, please.

I know my name is not NeoHoloGraphic, but are you seggesting we Christians stay out of "Science or The Religion of Scientism"???

What is actually illogical is to believe everything came from nothing.... (Just look in the mirror and look at the beautiful complexity of your eyes)

However having said that.... let's read a passage from "The Book of Scientism"

AntiGenesis

Chapter 1:

1: In the beginning there was nothing and nothing exploded and nothing created the nothingness of the universe.
And nothingness, became something and something became something else and something else became even more of the grand illusion of something else. And this something eventually became something known as science. But this science falsely so called, was crafty as a snake and eventually became Scientism. The High Preists of Nothingness then moved over the minds of those something or others that evolved from the big bang of nothingness and from this nothingness the answers to all the theories of the universe were created and confirmed as theory... I mean "Law" (Dang you Freudian Slip) by mere mortals who will once again return to nothingness.

That passage/book seems very Scientific to me atleast.... but also takes a ton of "Faith" (even more faith) to believe what these High Priests of Theory preach and you seem to be preaching also... (My/Christians Faith can be clearly seen in the things The Word created.... which point to His Eternal Power and Divine Nature - Romans 1:18-23.... Scientism has the fall of man has led to Romans 1:24-32) There is "Evidence" for ones faith....

So yes.... One can use logic.... but one also uses faith to believe in God... However one does not come to the faith in God or His only begotten Son, by the way of "Logic" per say... This isn't a head thing.... this is a Spirit/Heart thing...

The Flesh and The Spirit are quite contrary to one another... The Flesh is never drawn to the Son or Truth... That comes only by way of the Spirit.... and Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.... (However we are called to examine or "Test All Things" and hold fast to that with is good.... "True")

At what point does one come to faith in the theory of mere mortal man and how do those theories become the absolute law of truth.... It seems to me "Science" changes Its minds, beliefs, definitions and narratives as fast as the times do and is steered by those in control at any given period of time... (Science is never settled.... unless one wants to plant his faith in the religion of dishonesty)

The Word of Truth on the other hand...is always the same... Yesterday, Today and Forever...

I CORINTHIANS 1

Christ the Power and Wisdom of God
18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”
20Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

We Christians can believe in Science.... as it is Theorized... Testable, Observavble and Repeatable...

Now please prove/demonstrate using the Scientific Method that we "Believers In Jesus" are whacky as hell when it comes to Science and or the many theories thereof...

What I'm saying is...tell/prove to me you came from nothing.... and I will tell/prove to you that you were created in the image of God....

Much Love and Be Blessed....

originally posted by: QFlux
There is so much overwhelming evidence

Excellent. Give me your best example.

originally posted by: neoholographic
A lighting strike on a puddle on earth and viola, DNA more advanced than a supercomputer crawls out of the mud.

It's been proven in a lab that a lightning strike can cause two groups of amino acids to merge. DNA didn't start out advanced.

Also, can you explain to everyone why Priests are molesting little boys? You think that's "God's plan"?

originally posted by: rigel4
a reply to: neoholographic

The Universe is Illogical and chaotic..............

There is no evidence for God and therefore no evidence that he/she/it created it.

Telling religious people there is no evidence of god is a moot point.

Most religious people will tell you that the bible is evidence of god.

That's always been their debate winner...lol

originally posted by: PaPaTaco
In the beginning there was nothing and nothing exploded and nothing created the nothingness of the universe.

While it is totally true that religious people, cause it ain't just you Christians, can believe in science, that was lame.

Big bang doesn't say there was nothing. Everything was just packed away.

a reply to: PaPaTaco
The Lord is satan

The bible is about a material god. Creation is matter

This world is about materialism and that is the demiurge... I like the bible that much I read the things they didn't want to put in... Because its close to the truth.

We are spirit evolving with matter, some would say trapped, but is a caterpillar trapped in a cacoon? No it will escape when it's ready to fly.

JC is a model, a thing to mold yourself too, forgiveness, sacrifice, Compassion

0retty much everything a satanist would want from it's enemy 5hat it was secretly torturing.

They elitest hate JC because they don't posses its attributes, dont go well with power, corruption. And greed.

originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: PaPaTaco
In the beginning there was nothing and nothing exploded and nothing created the nothingness of the universe.

While it is totally true that religious people, cause it ain't just you Christians, can believe in science, that was lame.

Big bang doesn't say there was nothing. Everything was just packed away.

So what you're saying is that you have to have "Faith" in "Everything" that was just packed away...

Please, using the scientific method, show me this "Faith" and where "Everything" that was packd away came from or originated....

Basically who or what created everything that was packed away... if it wasn't created well then how did it get there?

Basically we are back to "Faith" in the religion of Scientism.

originally posted by: Ironclad1964

originally posted by: rigel4
a reply to: neoholographic

The Universe is Illogical and chaotic..............

There is no evidence for God and therefore no evidence that he/she/it created it.

Telling religious people there is no evidence of god is a moot point.

Most religious people will tell you that the bible is evidence of god.

That's always been their debate winner...lol

Hebrews 11:1 Now "Faith" is the substance of things hoped for, the "Evidence" of things not seen.

Theres a big difference between "Faith" and "Blind Faith".... Our "Faith" in Yah, Jesus, His Word (which became flesh or "The Bible" as you put it "Is Not Lacking" evidence "(Blind Faith)...

I assume this passage of scripture won't be understood by your mind/flesh, but maybe just maybe it will speak to your spirit....

Evidence = 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,[a] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. Romans 1:18-23



Regardless of your beliefs... (which I'm not here to bag on) can you decipher that passage of scripture for me please??? What do you think it is saying.... (I'm not baiting you, I'm curious how you read/comprehend it)

As far as "Evidence" goes.... there is plenty of archeological evidences that point to the legitimacy and accuracy (Truth) of what the scriptures say. I could post some of those evidences, If anyone cares to watch them, but I also don't feel like spinning my tires taking the time to gather that info when all I will get is "Lame" hit pieces in response....

Anywho... We certainly aren't just dumb ignorant blind faith kooks... (at least some of us aren't... cuz I can't speak for all religions, churches and folks....) Personally for me... I just try to follow Jesus... because I know what he has done for me and how he has revealed himself to me and how I was called/drawn to him...

Peace.

originally posted by: PaPaTaco

At what point does one come to faith in the theory of mere mortal man and how do those theories become the absolute law of truth.... It seems to me "Science" changes Its minds, beliefs, definitions and narratives as fast as the times do and is steered by those in control at any given period of time... (Science is never settled.... unless one wants to plant his faith in the religion of dishonesty)

It is our understanding of science that is never settled.
Let me quote to you an exerpt from a letter between Galileo Galilei and Don Benedetto Castelli regarding the new discovery Galileo made with this magical new instrument called the telescope.
The discovery were the moons of Jupiter which conflicts with the view that all heavenly bodies revolve around the earth.

What follows is Galileo explaining why there is no conflict between scripture and our understanding of nature, the precursor of science.
Remember this guy is on your team in 1613 telling the scripture is a bunch of vague statements open for interpretation while science is exact and uncompromising.

“For the Holy Scripture and nature both equally derive from the divine Word, the
former as the dictation of the Holy Spirit, the latter as the most obedient executrix
of God's commands; moreover, in order to adapt itself to the understanding of all
people, it was appropriate for the Scripture to say many things which are different
from absolute truth, in appearance and in regard to the meaning of the words; on
the other hand, nature is inexorable and immutable, and she does not care at all
whether or not her recondite reasons and modes of operations are revealed to
human understanding, and so she never transgresses the terms of the laws
imposed on her; therefore, whatever sensory experience places before our eyes or
necessary demonstrations prove to us concerning natural effects should not in any
way be called into question on account of scriptural passages whose words appear
to have a different meaning, since not every statement of the Scripture is bound to
obligations as severely as each effect of nature.”

originally posted by: DAVG1980
a reply to: PaPaTaco
The Lord is satan

The bible is about a material god. Creation is matter

This world is about materialism and that is the demiurge... I like the bible that much I read the things they didn't want to put in... Because its close to the truth.

We are spirit evolving with matter, some would say trapped, but is a caterpillar trapped in a cacoon? No it will escape when it's ready to fly.

JC is a model, a thing to mold yourself too, forgiveness, sacrifice, Compassion

0retty much everything a satanist would want from it's enemy 5hat it was secretly torturing.

They elitest hate JC because they don't posses its attributes, dont go well with power, corruption. And greed.

You're going to have to unpack that a bit better my friend, because it was a bit of a quick hitter and loose in your explanations of it....

The god of this earth atm is Satan.... in the sense that this is Satan's Kingdom... (If you're tying to express that "The Lord" is Satan in a Hebraic/Hebrew Roots sense... then we can certainly break some bread on that, but if you're trying to say something else...then again. Further explain yourself pls.

"The Bible" is a "Love Letter" the message of Redemption... The story of Creation... a Historiacal account, a Prophetic work.... many fulfilled and some yet to be fulfilled... Is descibes how mankind was created (and yes how we fell... fell into sin and or materialsim if you wish.... but YHVH is not a "Material Father" (Satan on the other hand is)

The Bible/Jesus (who spoke what The Father would have Him speak... because He and The Father are one) taught us not to follow the ways of the flesh... Here are a few passages regarding materialism... www.openbible.info...

Creation is matter... I would agree with you.... but that in no way has anything to do with "Materialism"... If you are making such claims....

As far as the 66 Book Canon goes.... Yes I too believe there are books that were removed/witheld... and I too like looking into and reading these books.... but even with those books removed it does not change the truth that the redemptive plan/blood of "Jesus/Yahshua is the whole/sum of it all.

As far as your caterpillar analogy goes.... this passage may conclude what you're saying...

But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit. 2 Corinthians 3:18

We are called to be immitators of Christ... to walk as he walked, talk as he talked.... love as he loves....forgive as he forgives, be kind and tender hearted... (I know it is hard to do these things we we are controlled by our flesh... but the more we walk in His/the spirit we can overcome the ways of the flesh...) So there we are back to your caterpillar analogy if you will....

It is a race and a fight... a race we continuially train for and a good fight we fight.... Salvation, Justification and Sanctification...

I would add tho that JC is more than a model... He is The Word become flesh.... He is the only way to The Father... He is The Great I AM.... and that is why The World, Elites, Satan hate Him....

They are still trying to defeat Him and climb into Heaven by another way.... They will not succeed... deafeat, death/hell and the Lake of Fire is their eternal end..... along with all those who's names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life by their own free will choice to revile/reject his free gift of Eternal Life....

I'm sure this take will get the haters hating....

Peace.

originally posted by: Jubei42

originally posted by: PaPaTaco

At what point does one come to faith in the theory of mere mortal man and how do those theories become the absolute law of truth.... It seems to me "Science" changes Its minds, beliefs, definitions and narratives as fast as the times do and is steered by those in control at any given period of time... (Science is never settled.... unless one wants to plant his faith in the religion of dishonesty)

It is our understanding of science that is never settled.
Let me quote to you an exerpt from a letter between Galileo Galilei and Don Benedetto Castelli regarding the new discovery Galileo made with this magical new instrument called the telescope.
The discovery were the moons of Jupiter which conflicts with the view that all heavenly bodies revolve around the earth.

What follows is Galileo explaining why there is no conflict between scripture and our understanding of nature, the precursor of science.
Remember this guy is on your team in 1613 telling the scripture is a bunch of vague statements open for interpretation while science is exact and uncompromising.

“For the Holy Scripture and nature both equally derive from the divine Word, the
former as the dictation of the Holy Spirit, the latter as the most obedient executrix
of God's commands; moreover, in order to adapt itself to the understanding of all
people, it was appropriate for the Scripture to say many things which are different
from absolute truth, in appearance and in regard to the meaning of the words; on
the other hand, nature is inexorable and immutable, and she does not care at all
whether or not her recondite reasons and modes of operations are revealed to
human understanding, and so she never transgresses the terms of the laws
imposed on her; therefore, whatever sensory experience places before our eyes or
necessary demonstrations prove to us concerning natural effects should not in any
way be called into question on account of scriptural passages whose words appear
to have a different meaning, since not every statement of the Scripture is bound to
obligations as severely as each effect of nature.”

I would agree that the telescope is neat and all.... So is my Nikon P1000... I can see some amazing things in the heavens thru its lense...

I will have to disagree with your statement and the belief that Galileo proved conflicts with the view that the heavenly bodies make their circuit above/around the earth.... (This subject has been the majority of my research and study the last 5 years....)

The Scriptures however vague they may seem to the reader.... One must have the eyes and ears to fully understand them.... It is way more than a head, reading, comprehension thing with the scriptures... In many ways they are parabolic in nature, but none the less the "Absolute Truth" (which is and who is ultimately The Word Become Flesh....)

He is the one that set all the laws of nature in their place... (Some of those heavenly bodies/sentient beings (angels if you will) fell from and left their first estate or perfect order)

As far as "Planets" go.... The Five planets — Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn were known to the ancients. ... However, the planets moved relative to the stars. For this reason they were called wandering stars. Our word "planet" comes from the Greek word planetes, meaning "wanderer." (Per Google search)

Planets are nothing more than "Wandering Stars"... Did they leave their first estate? Are they sentient beings... lights in the sky or other material worlds??? (Using the scientific method please prove to me what they are and not what Galileo or NASA or someone else says they are....) On a side note the Bible references "The Stars" as being "Angels"

Have you ever looked at the stars through a magical telescope or a Nikon P900/1000.... They dance with amazing light as if underwater... They look electric or to be of some sort of plasma... Definately alive.... and not some dead sun billions of light years away.... (The Bible also states at some point in the future all the stars will fall to earth....)

The Coming of the Son of Man

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then tall the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And whe will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Mat 24

12And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black like sackcloth of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars of the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind. 14The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place. Rev 6

And several other verses like this...

So regardless of what man says (even myself and my own limited understandings)....it is The Word who in the beginning placed all those "Laws" (order) over His creation...

Personally I believe this is where "Science" comes into play... and with our modern technology we can go along way to discovering what exactly it is He created.... (More so than just repeating what we've been taught in school or told to believe....which is nothing more than often parroted beliefs...without any true evidence or understanding....) which is more evidence and proof that He is the truth... that The Bible conatins the truth... Creation again points back to it/Him... His eternal Power and His Divine Nature...

He created Nature itself.... So go out and "Test All Things" and hold fast to that which is good (True)

I know I've tried my best the last 5 years to prove what it is He created....

It is impossible for us finite minded creatures to accept that the Universe never began, will only evermore change and never cease to exist. So we fill in the impossible to grasp with another impossible to grasp cause.

originally posted by: CryHavoc

It's been proven in a lab that a lightning strike can cause two groups of amino acids to merge. DNA didn't start out advanced.

Yes and it's also proven in a lab that Amino acid polymers degrade spontaneously in water... meaning that even if you did start to get a chain of amino acids in water, it would revert back to monomer form rather quickly

originally posted by: Iconic

It's illogical to believe in a god, or a god who created the universe. That is literally the definition of illogical.

lol, so you think it is illogical to think that the logical world (biological creatures, cosmological structures) were created by a logical being? So illogical. Obviously it is far, far more likely that logical constructs come from a logical source. If you saw a working engine you would never think it came to be by illogical progressions. Yet every mitochondria on earth has a far more efficient engine than any car on the road:



This is the electron transport chain, which essentially acts like a hydrogen fuel cell generator that powers all life on the planet. This beautiful feat of micro-engineering can persist organisms for over 100 years and is self-replicable through gene code expression... far more impressive than any feat of human engineering. So yes, the mitochondria, as well as all other biological features, are logically designed.

You christians are whacky as hell when it comes to science. Just stay out of science, please.
You cannot use logic to believe in a god. Thats where "faith" comes into play.

Ignorant gate-keeping bigotry. There is not one example that life can come to be from non-life without logical input. There is not a single example of a population of organisms evolving into something distinctly new. So your entire evolutionary theory is faith-based, because there is no clear evidence to demonstrate that it is possible. Evolution is not science, it is faith.

originally posted by: cooperton

Ignorant gate-keeping bigotry. There is not one example that life can come to be from non-life without logical input. There is not a single example of a population of organisms evolving into something distinctly new. So your entire evolutionary theory is faith-based, because there is no clear evidence to demonstrate that it is possible. Evolution is not science, it is faith.

It's not even true faith, or even faith based. It is blind belief in something never seen or proven. Faith in God is backed up by evidence of the world around us, such as what you just provided. I applaud your comment here for it is well thought out and uses logic and evidence and correctly deduces that it leads to the conclusion that there is a Creator behind the magnificent design in life.

Everyone that is logical has to logically lead to where the evidence takes us. And that is that we are the product of a Designer.

Here is a recent interview with a scientist to be on par with your reasoning I enjoyed. You can see the difference between real faith, that is backed up by concrete evidence and proof of a Creator, and the "blind faith" belief that we came about by chance that atheists illogically chose to accept:

Why We Have Faith In God's Existence

I will leave these two scriptures to conclude:

"Faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen."-Hebrews 11:1.

"For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable."-Romans 1:20.

a reply to: QFlux

True that.... The same scriptures I've shared above...

originally posted by: PaPaTaco
So what you're saying is that you have to have "Faith" in "Everything" that was just packed away...

No, I'm saying that the big bang theory doesn't say there was nothing so that part was wrong.

Please, using the scientific method, show me this "Faith" and where "Everything" that was packd away came from or originated....

Basically who or what created everything that was packed away... if it wasn't created well then how did it get there?

Basically we are back to "Faith" in the religion of Scientism.

This is also lame.

The big bang theory as just another idea. If a better idea comes along it gets tossed and the new one takes its place. Trying to equate that to religion is a stretch.

originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: PaPaTaco
So what you're saying is that you have to have "Faith" in "Everything" that was just packed away...

No, I'm saying that the big bang theory doesn't say there was nothing so that part was wrong.

Some of my comment was to be read as humor... But as far as "Singularity" goes... There is no "Settled" proof where, how, why etc etc... for the Big Bang or whatever Scientism will come up with next to deny this was all created...

Please, using the scientific method, show me this "Faith" and where "Everything" that was packd away came from or originated....

Basically who or what created everything that was packed away... if it wasn't created well then how did it get there?

Basically we are back to "Faith" in the religion of Scientism.

This is also lame.

The big bang theory as just another idea. If a better idea comes along it gets tossed and the new one takes its place. Trying to equate that to religion is a stretch.

So far you have brought nothing/no evidence to the table.... Only (That I'm) "Lame" in responses...

You are correct.. The Big Bang is just an "Idea" yet taught as "Law" in the mind control camps known as "School"

What do you think will be the next theory or idea that will come along that discredits the big bang theory and whatever will the faithfull of the Church of Scientism do when they find out their Hirelings failed them once again??? (altho that's not entirely fair... there have been many hirelings inside organized religion that have failed their members as well.... sadly)

But again, the floor is yours to lay it all out... I'm waiting for the "Logical" explanation for it all.... If you got it, let's hear it.

BTW... I'm not here to agrue with you or treat you unkindly. Please don't read me that way. Neither of us have time for that drama.

Peace

The way I interpret all of the facts available to society today, analyzed over the previous centuries of practical and theoretical application, is that science is a system of processing physical phenomena and religion is a system of processing psychological phenomena. The biological, chemical, quantifiable reality is subject to scientific investigation while the ideological reality of ego, self awareness and sociology is subject to religious investigation because ethereal tools are best suited for ethereal subject matter, but religion can't substitute what science tells us and science can't confirm what religion tells us. The facts are, neither science or religion were established as information tools before the arrival of modern humans. Dinosaurs didn't invent language, build microscopes or write scripture. None of these devices existed before modern civilization. Ergo, both were created by humans.

originally posted by: PaPaTaco
So far you have brought nothing/no evidence to the table.... Only (That I'm) "Lame" in responses...

That is because it was never my intention to prove the big bang theory. I was just pointing out that you got the nothing/everything part of it wrong in your example.

I then pointed out the argument of science being a religion is a stretch. Sure some people might take their science religiously but that is a personal thing and not a fundamental part of science.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
The way I interpret all of the facts available to society today, analyzed over the previous centuries of practical and theoretical application, is that science is a system of processing physical phenomena and religion is a system of processing psychological phenomena. The biological, chemical, quantifiable reality is subject to scientific investigation while the ideological reality of ego, self awareness and sociology is subject to religious investigation because ethereal tools are best suited for ethereal subject matter, but religion can't substitute what science tells us and science can't confirm what religion tells us. The facts are, neither science or religion were established as information tools before the arrival of modern humans. Dinosaurs didn't invent language, build microscopes or write scripture. None of these devices existed before modern civilization. Ergo, both were created by humans.

Science is describing the predictability of the empirical world. This should not be confused with humans creating the empirical wworld.

So too, religion is describing the source of the empirical world. This should not be confused with humans creating the creator.

Scientific pursuit of the created world is what made me realize the necessity of a Creator to begin with. Biological creatures are vastly more complex than even the best human invention, which means the Creator of said biological creatures must be of a higher intelligence than human