Missouri Returning to Reason - Rolling back minimum wage

a reply to: burdman30ott6

Don't know if this is what you are looking for.

When I worked fast food, they had one person take orders and one make drinks.

Then one day the manager said you got to do both. Can't tell what exactly what you are thinking someone is going to come up with. A lot of pay is based on what the other guy (industry) pays.

originally posted by: seasonal
a reply to: CynConcepts

Wages? How about safety? Or length of a work day? Or ethnicity of workers?

no one is in slavery and owned by the company. That mentality needs to be emboldened. You don't like your work conditions...simply leave. You are free.

Is that tough decision to make at times...hell yeah! I know...I lived out of the back of a pickup truck with an infant and felt superior to the family in an Army tent with 6 kids! Life is challenging but it IS what you make of it. You are responsible for your choices, including the safety, time spent with your family, and it is definitely YOUR choice to contract your labor for wages.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
OK, let's play, shall we? Show me a person making minimum wage who has either skills that warrant a higher wage in the same job or a financial investment risk in the company warranting a higher pay grade. There are none, so don't hurt yourself searching.

I don't live in the US so I don't know anyone making US minimum wage.

Of course that is you just deflecting from the fact that your dream of free markets is just naive idealism.

originally posted by: CynConcepts
You don't like your work conditions...simply leave. You are free.

Circumstances might make you less than free.

Just how easy do people think it is to get out of poverty while being stuck in an already poor area? I've personally been through this s#, it's not as easy as Burdman wants people to think it is. If he had an easy time crawling out of the financial gutter, he was lucky. Most others never get lucky enough to have enough money to save, enough stuff of value to sell to move on, or to get far enough away to get to the good jobs with.

The arguments usually go like this:

"Save your money & move, idiot!"

On minimum wage, there's nothing left to save in the first place after you pay the landlord, utilities & get food. Try TF again, know-it-all.

Also, don't bother with the smartphone argument, because I know damn well someone's going to go full retard & go there. I have shiny new one, but it's not top-end. It's a $20 Alcatel sale special on a $30-every-3-months plan via Tracfone (I guarantee you my costs beat yours into oblivion, you foolish over-spenders) These are the "expensive" phones everyone mistakes the poor for rolling in -- budget phones, not iPhones, Galaxies or Razors or whatever. Although I do know a few very poor folks using a better off friend's old, unlocked cast-off iPhone, I'll give them that much.
How much are YOU willing to pay for a second generation iPhone if they want to sell it? Yeah, didn't think you'd want it.

"Sell your s# then!"

Just how much do you think a poor family's old, second-hand furniture is worth?? How much do you think they're going to get for their used electronics? Not a hell of a lot! Thank prospective buyers who understand what the word "depreciation" means. BTDT, selling all the furniture & electronics barely covers rent, and definitely will not pay for a move, unless we're in a universe where First, Last, and Security on a rental magically falls out of asses on demand.

"Sell the jewelry, woman!"

Mr T pities you, fool -- they're way ahead of you. They've already pawned and/or sold the jewelry to gold & silver brokers for food/bills money a long time ago. BTDT, too! What you THINK is real on them is their (literally) worthless costume jewelry that nobody will buy.

"Then drive to the next town & get a better job!"

This assumes a poor person can afford a vehicle & it's insurance in the first place, let alone the gas to drive around trying to find a better job than they have. Never been that strapped for gas, have you? The kind of strapped where you'd be lucky to have enough gas budgeted to be able to get out of town, let alone back home on.

originally posted by: strongfp

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: strongfp
You are arguing with a brick wall.

Well, that's the most accurate comment you've had in this thread.

I am not arguing. i am pointing out your flaws as an anti-progressive human being and how your views on life are that of someone who lived 120+ years ago.

Again, this is a surprise to anyone who familiar with me? I will never be accused of being even remotely progressive. Why? Because "progress" isn't automatically a good thing. One can progress down the wrong path and find themselves in a much deeper part of snip creek than they were in when they started. Then what? Backtracking. WHat you're calling "flaws" I consider virtues. America has lost its way thanks to "progressive" actions and we need to roll back the clock. Hell, I can't even argue the 120 years claim...

originally posted by: seasonal
Can't tell what exactly what you are thinking someone is going to come up with. A lot of pay is based on what the other guy (industry) pays.

In that case, we're not talking about minimum wage, are we?

originally posted by: daskakik
I don't live in the US so I don't know anyone making US minimum wage..

Why then are you arguing about something you just admitted you know little about and doesn't impact you?

a reply to: burdman30ott6

Unless the other guy is paying min wage

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: Aazadan
Your not supposed to. The point is to shrink the wealth gap. If it were proportional it wouldn't shrink.

So those of us in the middle to upper middle class are supposed to support this idea that reduces our personal purchasing power for what reason exactly? Do the sunshine and farts get delivered while the gap is closing, or after it has completed it's shrinkage?

You seem to want a nation of high performing individiuals. You'll get more of them if you give people assistance. I'm going to use myself as an example here. It took me 13 years of school to get where I am, one more to finish.

From age 20 to 34 I was on assistance (at 35, I'm now off it) . Pell Grants for school, disability for living expenses. This summer I finally landed a summer internship. That internship pays real well, 60/hour.

In the three months of my internship so far, I have already generated more in just tax revenue than I got in two years of assistance. 100% paid back. In additional spending from me in local businesses that's another year.

When I finish my last year of school, they're paying me $70/hour for 20 hours/week part time. Taxes and spending from that will fully pay back another 2 years of assistance. Then I have a full time offer waiting for me after that.

The point is. In 1 and a half years from now I will have paid back enough in taxes and increased local spending, that 14 years of help to do it will be totally paid back. From that point on, every dollar earned is pure profit for the government and for local business.

I could not have done it without help. Without food stamps to eat, without money to buy gas, without money to pay rent, and so on. I simply would not have been able to study and improve myself while also attending class. Helping people pays off. Thanks to being helped, I'll be making a nice wage in a job that wouldn't otherwise exist if I weren't there to work it. That in turn means everyone else in the community will see their tax burden reduced. Another dependent turned into a provider. If I were left to simply starve to death, that wouldn't have happened.

Minimum wage increases are another form of help (I'm for UBI and no minimum wage myself, but that's another topic). The more financially secure the population, the more leverage they have. I would like to see a world without unions, where each person can negotiate for themselves. The only way to do that though in a low skill position, is to give the employees leverage of their own... the ability to walk away from a job if they want. With a minimum wage increase, those on the bottom become more secure, and gain a little more of that ability.

a reply to: Nyiah

Who said it was supposed to be easy? I never said it was easy. I said you make a choice of whether you're going to do it or not and then you do what needs to be done to reach your goal. Very few things in life that are easy are beneficial to you. I picked onions when I was a teenager for the same wages the migrants made. I wore clothes from Goodwill through college. I lived with my parents and drove 65 miles each way to and from college every day to save money. About the only grocery purchases I made were Copenhagen, $0.99 loaves of white bread, and $1.99 packs of bologna, with my dinners being homecooked food my Mom made. I scarcely had a social life in college because I was there for one reason: that degree.

You make it work, and the harder it is, the more pissed off and determined you get.

originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: CynConcepts
You don't like your work conditions...simply leave. You are free.

Circumstances might make you less than free.

What circumstances? Seriously, I wished more folks didn't tell me what a poor victim I was earlier in my life. I do wish they told me the truth...my choices were truly #ed up and it was my own fault! I suffered years of staying in abuse due to simply being a victim who had no control. Trust me...when someone first told me 'heartlessly and truthfully' that I was the only one to pull myself out of a bad situation...I sneered and hated them and thought they were absolute a holes...

It did not take me long to realize...those that truly care will be the most honest. Truth and honesty in this challenging world are rare...but most needed for true survival.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

Governments are the same all over the world. I just added a little info as to why your game wasn't going to work.

I'm not arguing minimum wage, I'm pointing out how naive some of your posts are.

Like "No, I want to create a world where...", well, until you get them god powers you are stuck whining on ATS.

a reply to: CynConcepts
Read Nyiah's post above.

Average rent in Missouri for a 1 bedroom apt is around 935.00. Minimum wage at 7.77 would leave you with.. hmm, right about that after taxes. Leaving no money for trivialities such as food, clothes, etc.

While I agree everyone doesn't need the latest cellphone every 2 years, and designer clothes, I think we can expect that wages to at least cover rent and food and gas and necessities for any worker in America. The fact remains that wages have not kept up with the cost of living. When I was a kid, your wages could absolutely afford say, a 2 bedroom apt on minimum wage. The consumer price index has risen steadily, while minimum wage has gone nowhere.

Let me guess.. "You aren't working 2 and a half jobs.. you don't deserve luxuries like coffee, bacon or gas!"

It's also sort of sad how there was recession - recovery - cost of living increases as a result - wages stay at recession rates.

And the rich get richer.

a reply to: daskakik

Last election went fairly well, though. Tides change. The "whiny" crowd today may well be the ones in power tomorrow, and then we're looking at a whole new chapter in the book, ya?

a reply to: burdman30ott6

You still can't point out a single country with a free market economy.

You are still having money taken by the gov and spent without you having any say.

New chapter, same old story.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
a reply to: Nyiah
I picked onions when I was a teenager for the same wages the migrants made.

You lived somewhere were there was work for teenagers, good for you. You got lucky. Where I grew up in BFE Florida, there was no agriculture, and no tourism drawn for summer jobs for teenagers. It was a no-horse town way between others, with no reason for people to stop & spend their money other than at the gas station or Mickey D's. Most people worked well out of town & could barely afford the gas to do so.

I wore clothes from Goodwill through college.

Congrats, I wore my adult brother's hand-me-downs as a homeless teenager living out of a car with my mother. TF is your point?

I lived with my parents and drove 65 miles each way to and from college every day to save money.

Aw, faux pas to admit that on this site. You lived with your mom & dad in college instead of making it on your own, so you're pretty much an admitted adult mooch to half the site now (although I personally don't care, whatever works cheaply) Just prepare for flak, dude.

About the only grocery purchases I made were Copenhagen,

Chew is not a necessity, bro. Even at our brokest, I dropped the cigs out of sheer inability to afford them.

$0.99 loaves of white bread, and $1.99 packs of bologna, with my dinners being homecooked food my Mom made. I scarcely had a social life in college because I was there for one reason: that degree.

What, no dollar packs of ramen? You didn't scrimp as hard as you should have then! /sarc

You make it work, and the harder it is, the more pissed off and determined you get.

Out of curiosity, because you didn't say, who paid for college in the first place? The fact you didn't specify this says you had more help than you care to admit for a bootstrapper.

originally posted by: Nyiah
Out of curiosity, because you didn't say, who paid for college in the first place? The fact you didn't specify this says you had more help than you care to admit for a bootstrapper.

I did. That's why I was picking onions. I avoided the ramen because I'd rather just go hungry than eat what amounts to little more than salt.

Chew kept people around me from dying horrible deaths, so it was a necessity. A cheap as hell one back then, too. $2.25 a can. I've yet to see anyone on ATS ridicule anyone for living at home when they're 20 or 21 while attending college. Care to point me to whatever jackass did that, or did we just invent something again?

a reply to: Nyiah

You can go back in my posting history if you would like. There's a lot of posts I've made over the years talking about poverty. About 1.5 years ago everything clicked for me though, the economics that make sense in poverty don't make good financial sense elsewhere.

The number 1 issue I found is in valuing your time. This is what really started to turn things around for me. At the time I was living on $750/month, with about $150 of that per month being disposable. I started valuing my time at some rate, maybe $10/hour. Then I started looking at what I was doing each day. I was playing a lot of Magic: The Gathering. But I noticed I spent 5 hours per week sorting cards. That wasn't bringing in $50 in value, so I sold the scrap I was organizing and just kept the good ones. I found that I could spend 90 minutes a day cooking food ($15 in time, plus $5 in food) and cost myself $20 in value. Or I could go eat at a cheaper restaurant in just 30 minutes and $10 spent ($15 in value). I did this to every aspect of my life, and things simply started to go better for me. What I found, was that by doing this I wound up with a lot more additional time. That time I invested back into myself. I highly recommend it to anyone that wants to turn their life around.

I haven't made it yet, but I'm pretty darn close at this point, coming up from literally nothing.

But more back on point with your post. I've embraced minimalism. I sleep on the floor, my only furniture is a desk for my laptops, and an office chair. I can fit everything I own in the back of my car in one trip. This has allowed me to free my mind of clutter. There is no time spent trying to acquire, manage, maintain, and eventually sell furniture... it's a 100% losing proposition. When you're poor, you can't afford to be doing that. It either sells easily and should go, or it should be left behind.