Missouri Returning to Reason - Rolling back minimum wage

a reply to: Aazadan

This, this is exactly why we see more and more people adopting an "let them die" attitude. Trap people in a situation where you've invented concepts to force them into paying for everybody that refuses to take personal responsibility and the only viable way out is for those forced on them to die out. You can apply the pro-choice crowd argument for keeping abortion legal perfectly to the argument of eliminating redistributive taxation.

If the minimum wage was raised to 50 dollars an hour, everyone would be well off!

a reply to: burdman30ott6

The market would not decide, collusion would.

originally posted by: seasonal
a reply to: burdman30ott6

The market would not decide, collusion would.

You're confusing what's happening currently with the free market. Presently we have collusion between government officials and Kept Voters, creating artificial cycles of supply, demand, and price ceilings for the have nots that, in turn, create price floors that keep going up, up for the haves.

We need a free market within this nation's borders, period.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

That is even more naive then what you previously posted. Free markets don't exist.

originally posted by: daskakik
Free markets don't exist.

Not when you're stuck with this pandering pile of dog crap government, they don't. I'll give you that.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
If the minimum wage was raised to 50 dollars an hour, everyone would be well off!

Sort of. See, when people argue for raising the minimum wage what they're actually arguing for is decreasing income inequality. If we decrease it far enough then everyone is equally poor but if we let it expand too far then just about everyone is equally poor as well.

Lets use this example: There's $150 available for wages and 15 people need jobs. But living expenses cost $12. That means there's a deficit of $2/person and all 15 are dependent. We could however raise the minimum wage to $15. This causes some unemployment because there's not enough money in the pool, but 10 people now make $15 on that same $12 in expenses. The total deficit remains the same at $30 but now only 1/3 the population is dependent.

Minimum wage increases do work, but they have to be regularly increased. They also require local ordinances to further increase them in more expensive areas and that doesn't happen often.

The solution I most support is UBI alongside the removal of minimum wage. That would give people in jobs that traditionally offer little leverage the financial security to walk away from the job. Employers would either make low level jobs worth the employees time, or they wouldn't get workers. This would also eliminate the need for all other welfare programs, and for unions.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

One can still be poor while taking personal responsibility for themselves. Look at Walmart, they employ 1% of the US and in many rural areas can employ as much as 50% of the community. Yet their employees almost all require further assistance beyond what they're paid.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

My comments are for the real world, are yours for a fairy tale?

originally posted by: Aazadan
a reply to: burdman30ott6

One can still be poor while taking personal responsibility for themselves. Look at Walmart, they employ 1% of the US and in many rural areas can employ as much as 50% of the community. Yet their employees almost all require further assistance beyond what they're paid.

Take a second job.

a reply to: Aazadan

You neglect to factor in people already making 15/hr.

They'll want a raise to compensate.

So the 15/hr are now at 18/hr.

But that'll piss of those making 18/hr. So to compensate, they get 21/hr.


But that'll piss off people making 21/hr.

So to compensate, they now get 25/hr.

But that'll piss off people making 25/hr. . . . . . .

a reply to: DBCowboy

As they say, want in one and and ..... They will not get that raise.

originally posted by: seasonal
a reply to: burdman30ott6

My comments are for the real world, are yours for a fairy tale?

Yours are a forward looking prediction based on speculation. You are saying "The market may not do this if we do that." I'm stating directly what is happening right now. "Presently we have collusion between government officials and Kept Voters, creating artificial cycles of supply, demand, and price ceilings for the have nots that, in turn, create price floors that keep going up, up for the haves." This is not a fairy tale, it's what is actually taking place right now, today.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
You neglect to factor in people already making 15/hr.

It doesn't go down the chain proportionally, with each extra dollar earned, the amount of your raise is a smaller percentage. Again, that's what shrinking wealth gaps do. The person making $15 now ends up with less purchasing power after an increase.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
Take a second job.

But then how do you get out of your situation if all your time is spent on working and keeping up with existing? Even one job takes too many hours for many people to be able to build up another skillset in addition to work.

That type of expectation only traps people in poverty.

originally posted by: seasonal
a reply to: DBCowboy

As they say, want in one and and ..... They will not get that raise.

Tell that to those who want 15/hr.

a reply to: DBCowboy

In reality, NONE of us making over the new minimum wage will see an increase that will see us with the same buying power we had before the increase. For that to happen, you'd be looking at percentages, not dollars. Say the min goes from $10 an hour to $11 an hour. That's a 10% increase for the minimum wage worker. Now take a manager who was making $20 an hour, and give him the same $1 an hour increase... he just got a 5% raise, but the 10% increase for the minimum wage worker will ensure the cost of living in the area increases by around 10%, meaning your manager just got an effective decrease in salary.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: Aazadan
a reply to: burdman30ott6

One can still be poor while taking personal responsibility for themselves. Look at Walmart, they employ 1% of the US and in many rural areas can employ as much as 50% of the community. Yet their employees almost all require further assistance beyond what they're paid.

Take a second job.

Forget personal life... that's over rated, no one should have personal time or enjoy life. people should work hard and work hard non stop till they themselves are the overlords screwing others below them to work minimum wage and two jobs.

Capitalism ya!!!

a reply to: Aazadan

Yeah, life's a real bitch sometimes, especially when you're the one responsible for you.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

If you say so, there was a reason a min wage was put into law.

If there were no min law, we would see abuses grow. The stagnant pay that Americans have been experiencing since the mid 1970's is no mistake. And that wealth going in one direction isn't a mistake either.