So now flirting or asking a girl out is sexual harassment

originally posted by: MotherMayEye
a reply to: veracity

Not to mention it could be dangerous to strongly confront & threaten every sexual harasser that you will report them if they don't stop. Sometimes you have to go with your gut when it comes to dealing with sexual harassment.

I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all approach.

(BTW, I reported my boss for sexually harassing me, 17 years ago, and I was fired by the end of the day.)

exactly, gut feelings are pretty much the only thing you can depend on. There is no clear cut rules for harassment. Companies try to help with HR videos (they are funny) but when it comes down to it, people still harass and people in charge will still take advantage of their positions.

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: Taggart

originally posted by: xstealth
I feel bad for you single guys.

If you ask a girl out or flirt with one you can lose your job over it, ask Bill O'Reily.

Now Sean Hannity is being accused.

Debbie Schlussel said the married primetime anchor invited her back to his hotel in Detroit after the pair met at a book signing. After the conservative commentator turned down the father-of-two's advances, she claims she wasn't invited back on his show. Read more: www.dailymail.co.uk... Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

So the direction this is going you guys will be sued for catcalling or flirting with a woman.

I'm not going to comment on the ethics of a married man flirting with a girl since this is unproven, I want to point out the direction these allegations are going.

In my opinion sexual harassment should only be recognized in extreme cases, not when a man tries to pick you up. That's what men do. (not me, im married faithfully (in case my wife is reading)(i'm being honest though))

Workplace is a place to work, not flirt and pull women.
It's been like that in a lot of workplaces since at least the 90's.
This isn't new, I'm sure it's been like that in a corporation like FOX for at least that long too.
Employers also try stop that practice so if the two employees fall out it doesn't carry on in to the workplace.

According to studies most marriages the couple meet either in college or at work. Most work places have the rule you cant be a supervisor over someone you're dating. This situation with him is actually similar to how the wife and i met. I was a college professor hired by her law firm to go over a case. It was about science involving force and i had to teach a class in court. She asked me out at a pre trial meeting.

According to what studies?
Do share if you're going to say I'm wrong for saying you shouldn't flirt in the workplace.
I've seen studies saying that 30% of those who meet at work get married but I find it hard to believe that MOST marriages are people that meet in college or at work. I'll happily be proven wrong.

originally posted by: veracity
im sorry, i dont even know you.

so sorry if i made you feel uncomfortable but it seems like you got triggered very easily.

im just an anonymous forum board poster...can we move on from this now please?

Oh dear, I suppose my advice is not going to be taken. Oh well, at least I was being polite. (Think back to my "digging yourself a hole reference).

Your extreme reaction in your post above, who is responsible for that?

Have I yet indicated "I felt uncomfortable", that "I feel triggered", that I didn't think you as an "anonymous board member" had no right to judge me?

Now YOU want to move on and pretend everything I have said is irrelevant? WHO has said ANY of the above? I know I didn't say nor imply any of it, so who was it?

a reply to: TheRedneck

How do you prove you rebuked advances?

The above post by Dark Ghost...example of CREEPY

a reply to: Kali74

Incorrect. Where I lightly touched on false allegation, I clearly showed sympathy.

Then we're even. I have denounced actual sexual harassment.

TeIl me, is it acceptable for only actual offenses to be punished, or should all potential offenses be punished, false or not, to extract revenge? Because that's where the problem lies: legal revenge for any action not wanted, of any nature, using sexual harassment as a blanket excuse.

I have also sat on a Grand Jury listening to a sexual assault case (now no longer under order to not discuss). The accused was a car salesman, the plaintiff was a woman representing her young (13 or so) daughter. As it turns out, the mother was more angry because the car lot turned her down for a loan, and the daughter couldn't answer one single detail of the assault without Mommy in the room coaching her.

Where is the sympathy for the salesman who was innocent? When the case was first presented, all 12 of us assumed the salesman was a creepy old pedophile. Thankfully, toward the end, we agreed he was the victim and refused to induct.

What if the child had rehearsed better?

TheRedneck

a reply to: veracity

And proof that sometimes asking people to stop isn't enough...or effective in the slightest.

originally posted by: veracity
The above post by Dark Ghost...example of CREEPY

And there you have it folks! The root of the problem exposed for all to see.

The truth fears no investigation. People that want to deflect away from something because the Truth is close to being revealed resort to playing the victim instead, as though the hole they just fell down (which they were warned about in advance) they had NO idea was coming. They could not stop. It was completely out of their control.

veracity: thank you. You have done more for me than you can presently comprehend and I have more importantly done more for your future endeavours than you can currently realise. Just in case, why don't you go report me to a mod for what you have suffered? (The stars from your feminist buddies can act as reassurance that you have a good case to go by.)

a reply to: Kali74

I have a USB recorder that will record every word said, through the fabric of my pants, at the touch of a button. It cost $5.

How do you prove you're innocent?

TheRedneck

originally posted by: MotherMayEye
a reply to: veracity

And proof that sometimes asking people to stop isn't enough...or effective in the slightest.

lofl, a perfect example of creepy harassment right here in the ATS sexual harassment thread.

originally posted by: umbr360
a reply to: TrueBrit

Is that not where all of the confusion comes into it?

I remain utterly without the remotest confusion on the topic. Do explain, what confusion you are referring to?

No of course a man should not stare at a woman who happens to be walking by on the street, no matter how attractive he may find her. But sometimes, as has been mentioned women DO dress provocatively on purpose to get attention. They now actively want to be noticed by men, I have met previous girlfriends in these exact circumstances, but the situation seems to fall apart on two issues...

A - It isn't always clear when a woman is simply dressing in clothes that unintentionally exaggerate certain features and when she actively wants the attention.
B - How the attention is received (assuming the aim of the woman's appearance was to get attention) often depends on how attractive the woman finds the man looking at her.

Ah, I see where the confusion may be for you. Let me make this far simpler. There are no circumstances, where a man ought to be staring at a woman, whether she wants the attention or not. Do you understand? It does not matter whether the woman in question is seeking attention, or simply going about her business, a gentleman does not respond to base attraction, because a gentleman cares not for mindless indulgences. A gentleman does not care for temporary dalliance. A gentleman does not respond to physical beauty or objectify the female, even if a female appears for all the world as if she wants to get THOROUGHLY objectified. Its actually very simple.

The difference between a grand romantic gesture and a creep who needs locking up is whether the woman finds the man hot.

No, with respect, the difference between a grand romantic gesture, and a creep who needs locking up, is whether or not the individual is a creep or a gentleman.

(And let me be clear, everything above works entirely in reverse too. Men also dress up when they want attention, and also react differently depending on whether they find the women looking at them attractive or not. I defaulted to men looking at women because I'm a man, but in no way is it one-sided or saying women are at fault and men aren't. We're all the same.)

In an ideal world, we'd all be able to accept that mistakes are made, say we are not interested, and have that listened to first time every time.


As many times as I retype that it seems to come across a bit stronger than I intended...probably because the above is an incredibly oversimplified answer to an incredibly non black-white issue, and not always correct.

No. With respect, a gentleman does not react differently to an advance depending on whether he finds a female attractive or not. For example:

At the height of summer, last year, I was on my way home from a boozy night out at a friends place. I made my way to a cab rank, since I had work in the morning and did not want to wake up tired from walking. I awaited a cab, but by the time one came to the location, three other individuals, one male and two females, had arrived also. It turned out we were all going the same way. The three of them were fairly drunk by all accounts. One of the ladies, a blonde, struck up conversation with me. We had never met before. It turned out that we were all headed in the same direction, so when a cab did arrive, we all got into it. It was all above board up until this point. Upon jumping into the cab, this female announced, at great volume "Stacey... I reckon this blokes got a big ****, should I take him home with me?" to which her friend replied in the affirmative. After banter between the two had ensued, I interjected thusly:

"No miss, you will not be taking me home this evening. I have just met you, so that would be entirely improper. Also, the fact that you gave not one moments consideration to the possibility I might not want to bed you, makes me think that perhaps doing so would be a mistake that I could only ever regret."

At which point, I stepped out of the cab, since we had arrived in my street, and left the young blonde, and her friends, in utter disbelief. Perhaps they assumed, collectively, that an animalistic looking fellow such as myself, was one of loose morals, temporary fixation and low mind. Whatever their assumption, they were wrong. Objectively, the young lady concerned could have been considered quite attractive in some respects, but the fact that she was prepared to bed me after knowing me less than half an hour, not to mention had a callous disregard for good form, meant that I did not find her attractive, despite the fact that she was what many might call, if they were low brow enough to take note of these things as matters of importance, a fine looking woman.

The fact that she was a physically attractive individual, did not make her attitude any less disgusting to me, nor make me any more likely to agree to her terms, than I would have been had she been a less appealing physical specimen. Do you know why? Because I value myself well enough, that I expect high standards of comportment and conduct from myself, and I expect the precise same from those with whom I would consider becoming intimate. She did not display capacity to conduct herself with honour or ladylike comportment, and so I bade that situation a good night and went home alone.

I am a gentleman, and I expect ladylike conduct from any female who might seek to spend her time with me in an intimate fashion. The thing with some males, is that they hope, either secretly or overtly, that they will locate a woman who is prepared to be degraded and objectified. I hope no such thing. I am a gentleman. Some men are not. Those men who are not, do not deserve to be protected from the effects of their caddish behaviour.

originally posted by: MotherMayEye
And proof that sometimes asking people to stop isn't enough...or effective in the slightest.

You don't "ask" people to stop doing something because you find it hurtful, offensive or awkward. You make them regret putting you in the position to demand they stop doing what they just did the first time it happens, as soon after it happens as you can. Don't give them the benefit of being able to even think about whether they can get away with doing it again. Stand up, be strong, be assertive, make them KNOW doing it again will have bad repercussions from them.

Try it on anyone you want. Try it on the most imposing, dominant, controlling, egocentric person in your life and see what happens. I guarantee you will benefit from the results.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

Just bc this is the internet and we are not in person (in which I would have reported you 2 posts back), i feel safer to correspond with you.

OK, now exactly what did I say to piss you off so much? What exactly am I "deflecting"?

Sorry, i cannot read minds.

originally posted by: Dark Ghost

originally posted by: MotherMayEye
And proof that sometimes asking people to stop isn't enough...or effective in the slightest.

You don't "ask" people to stop doing something because you find it hurtful, offensive or awkward. You make them regret putting you in the position to demand they stop doing what they just did the first time. Try it on anyone you want. Try it on the most imposing, dominant, controlling, egocentric person in your life and see what happens. I guarantee you will benefit from the results.

I asked if we could peacefully move on, but you were upset about something I wrote earlier that I do not know what it is? Was it when was calmly telling you that you should trust your feelings when someone touches your arm?

Something pissed you off, sorry I didnt mean to do it, but its ironic that you got triggered and creepy in this post.

(which is exactly why I do not talk or offend creepy triggered people in real life and tell them "NO")

a reply to: TheRedneck

That's all kinds of creepy and paranoid.

a reply to: TheRedneck

I live in the same world you do, TheRedneck.

I just make of it what good I can, rather than permitting the decay of everything around me to reach as far as my heart.

originally posted by: Dark Ghost

originally posted by: MotherMayEye
And proof that sometimes asking people to stop isn't enough...or effective in the slightest.

You don't "ask" people to stop doing something because you find it hurtful, offensive or awkward. You make them regret putting you in the position to demand they stop doing what they just did the first time. Try it on anyone you want. Try it on the most imposing, dominant, controlling, egocentric person in your life and see what happens. I guarantee you will benefit from the results.

I have done that before, in a situation that I won't get into here, and it did not benefit me in the slightest. I think you are grossly oversimplifying things.

WOW, I must be living in an alternate reality...

How can somebody be so creepy that you want to not only apologise to them, but also re-engage in conversation with them about the topic they were so triggered and upset about discussing earlier?

We do indeed live in strange times.

originally posted by: Dark Ghost
WOW, I must be living in an alternate reality...

How can somebody be so creepy that you want to not only apologise to them, but also re-engage in conversation with them about the topic they were so triggered and upset about discussing earlier?

We do indeed live in strange times.

I will cut and paste one of my last posts just in case you didnt see it:

Just bc this is the internet and we are not in person (in which I would have reported you 2 posts back), i feel safer to correspond with you.

OK, now exactly what did I say to piss you off so much? What exactly am I "deflecting"?

Sorry, i cannot read minds.

originally posted by: xstealth
I feel bad for you single guys.

If you ask a girl out or flirt with one you can lose your job over it, ask Bill O'Reily.

Now Sean Hannity is being accused.

Debbie Schlussel said the married primetime anchor invited her back to his hotel in Detroit after the pair met at a book signing. After the conservative commentator turned down the father-of-two's advances, she claims she wasn't invited back on his show. Read more: www.dailymail.co.uk... Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

So the direction this is going you guys will be sued for catcalling or flirting with a woman.

I'm not going to comment on the ethics of a married man flirting with a girl since this is unproven, I want to point out the direction these allegations are going.

In my opinion sexual harassment should only be recognized in extreme cases, not when a man tries to pick you up. That's what men do. (not me, im married faithfully (in case my wife is reading)(i'm being honest though))

Well... The direction in which it's going, is a full-on war against men.

Men bad. White men extra bad. Only women good.

Fine, girls. Have it your way. You'll probably not be satisfied before there truly is a "World without men". Sure, there will probably be 48 gender-equal variations to woman, but the question remains:

Who will do the dirty, dangerous, #ty jobs that today are performed by over 90% men?
Who will dig up the diamonds you find so attractive?

Just wanted to put that out there. I don't think women realize to what extent the resources and values of this world are made available because of the efforts of men.

But, whatever - just keep up your crusade. Just scream rape on the top of your lungs if a man as much as looks at you.
Just keep making careers out of suing rich, influential men. You are so damn good at it.